chaos0xomega wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I have a strong urge to stop responding to you unless you stop using fallacious arguments, because so far, that is what most of your arguments come down to.
Please read up on the list of fallacies and try to refrain from using them. It is hard, I am not faultless myself, but it is worth a try, because having a proper discussion with fallacies is very hard.

You're out of your league, I assure you I am FAR more familiar with logical fallacies than you are. I'd give you a list of all the fallacies which you yourself are subject to, but I'm at work and don't have the time to rewrite the Bible.

You don't need to give me a list, I can find one myself.
There are more fallacies than just logical fallacies and it is strange to assume you are more familiar with something than someone you don't even know is.

Considering I had to spend the better part of a semester preparing a term paper and hour long presentation on logical fallacies, forgive me if I feel like I'm a little more knowledgeable about the subject than you, particularly as you are like... 12? I mean, age isn't an indicator of anything, but I doubt you've studied logical fallacies to that level of depth at this point in your young life.

chaos0xomega wrote:

And you are right, I am hypocrytical. The next time I post something from RT it is your full right to also request an article from 'the other side'. (I would like to note however, that I already have done so on several occasions)

TBH, I can't remember, I took a break from this thread when it got to page 40 and didn't come back until like 6 pages ago lol

chaos0xomega wrote:

"Something positive" is again a matter of opinion. To me, the Russian takeover of Crimea was incredibly positive.

The net result might be a positive outcome, but they perpetrated several negative acts in the process. The ends dont necessarily justify the means.

chaos0xomega wrote:

But in any case, I was not just talking about the crisis here, but about Russia in general. Writing something positive about Russia's actions should not be thathard, Russia has done plenty of positive stuff in the past.

The site in general doesn't discuss Russia all that much, searching for 'Russia' comes up with two other stories, neither of which feature any sort of opinion whatsoever.

chaos0xomega wrote:

It is biased specifically against Russian propaganda.

Propaganda is bad no matter whos propaganda it is, is it not?

chaos0xomega wrote:

Once again, logical fallacies are not the only kind of fallacy. And yes, I did have them at school not too long ago and it seems you could also use a lesson to refresh your memory here. Also, I do not recall claiming my account to be more accurate and informed. Are you putting words in my mouth again?

Probably... more so simply stating the perception of your behavior.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Stalin's Holodomor was not specifically aimed at ethnic Ukrainians and was thus not a genocide. The same famine hit Russia as well, and many ethnic Russians died too. The Holodomor was aimed at the extermination of independent farmers in order to force people to live on collective farms, not at the extermination of Ukrainians (in that case, Stalin would have finished the job, he did not like half work).

I'm going to ignore the rest of your points, because I generally agree with you... but this one, this one is going to cause a lot of problems with a lot of people... The Holodomor largely and primarily affected the Ukrainian SSR, and very little beyond that, and this is telling in that the Ukrainian population dropped almost 10% while the Russian and Belarussian populations INCREASED by almost 15%. The overwhelming majority of the Holodomor's victims were Ukrainian, to the point that its difficult to argue that it was anything other than targeted at Ukrainians. The purpose might have been, as you say, to force collectivization, but Stalin achieved that end elsewhere *without* starving 5 million or so people to death via a manmade famine.

chaos0xomega wrote:

The actual point was that I claimed the article to be biased, whereas you denied this to be so (while having to resort to insults and other childish behaviour). Therefore I proceeded to highlight the bias, and as of yet, you have not fully adressed the highlighted article.

Haven't I?

chaos0xomega wrote:

I am pro-Russian. Of course I am going to be dismissive of sources that are anti-Russian. When such a source is posted here, I will complain about bias. Anyone is free to either ignore that or engage in a discussion about it. Me being the little hypocrite I am, continue to post pro-Russian sources while not always providing an opposing viewpoint (sometimes I do) Anyone is free to call me out on it and highlight bias in any of the articles I post. At least I acknowledge being biased and hypocritical.

You realize that I am *not* anti-Russian, right? I'm actually very much neutral on the whole affair, I'm one of those psycho's that sees a resurgent Russia as beneficial to American geopolitical interests and domestic policy.

chaos0xomega wrote:

While still being biased.

Is it really 'biased' when someone says, "Hey, so, I'm here, and seeing this with my own two eyes, and experiencing this with my own life, and what you're saying is happening, is NOT what is actually happening"?

chaos0xomega wrote:

Than the people you know must all be incredibly smart. Most people I know here in the Netherlands take everything NOS or RTL says for absolute truth and digest it like sweet cake. And as this is pretty much the same in Russia or Britain, I thought it to be the case everywhere. (that is a fallacy, I know)

Hmm I find that hard to believe, but perhaps Americans are (at this point) generally more cynical and jaded than the Dutch or English are?

chaos0xomega wrote:

I wish I had a Budenovka. I do have an Ushanka, does that count? I also have no fake medals (My uncle has a real one though). My father does keep a portrait of Stalin, though it is sitting in a box on the attic. And though I do read Pravda sometimes, it is not next to my keyboard.

Ushanka is acceptable.

The ends dont necessarily justify the means.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

The ends dont necessarily justify the means.

The ends justify the means only so long as their is something that justifies the end.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

The ends dont necessarily justify the means.

The ends justify the means only so long as their is something that justifies the end.

Moscow is considering “surgical retaliatory strikes” on the Ukrainian territory after the standoff has led to first civilian victims among Russians on Russia’s territory, a Kremlin source told Kommersant Monday.

“Our patience is not boundless,” the source told the newspaper, stressing that “this means not a massive action but exclusively targeted single strikes on positions from which the Russian territory is fired at.”

The Russian side “knows for sure the site where the fire comes from,” the source said.

The proposed plan echoes a statement by a deputy speaker of Russia’s upper house, Yevgeniy Bushmin, who told RIA Novosti Sunday that using precision weapons in response to Ukraine’s shelling would prevent further Kiev’s attacks of Russia’s territory.

There is a feeling that if before firing was not aimed against Russian border guards, now provocations have been on the rise as there is no other means of forcing us to join in the standoff with Ukraine’s security troops," said Bushmin who represents Rostov Region in the Federation Council.

The only way to fight against this like civilized countries do, namely the US and the EU. We should use precision weapons, like Israel, to destroy those who fired this shell [on Russia’s Donetsk]," the lawmaker said.

On Sunday, one Russian citizen was killed when a shell exploded in a yard of a house in Donetsk, a town in southern Russia’s Rostov Region. Another shell hit a house, injuring two women, a 82-year-old mother and her daughter. The elderly woman was hospitalized with brain concussion and fractures.

The Russian Foreign Ministry announced Sunday it protests the shelling calling it a provocation that might have irreversible consequences. Deputy Russian Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said earlier that Russia promises «harsh demarches» against Ukrainian authorities over the incident.

Rockets struck the town of Snizhne in Donetsk region around 07:00 (04:00 GMT), hitting a block of flats and a tax office.

The rebels blamed the attack on Ukraine's air force - a claim denied by Ukrainian sources.

Security forces have been pushing the rebels back to the city of Donetsk.

Fighting has also raged in the neighbouring region of Luhansk, with rockets hitting a southern suburb of Luhansk city on Monday.

Nato says it has observed a significant increase of Russian troops along the Ukrainian border, bringing their number to up to 12,000. Russia had an estimated 40,000 troops in the area two months ago before pulling them back.

Russia, which annexed Crimea from Ukraine after a disputed referendum in March, denies arming and facilitating the pro-Russian rebels.

Ukrainian officials have said that only Russia could have shot down a transport plane near the border on Monday but a Western defence expert cast doubt on the claim.

On Wednesday, EU leaders will discuss the possibility of further sanctions against Russia at their summit in Brussels.

Shattered homes
A video posted on YouTube on Tuesday shows men in what appears to be Snizhne sifting through the rubble of an apartment block. Among them are gunmen in camouflage gear.

Across the road is a lower building, also badly damaged.

The video shows a woman on the street beside a pile of bags. Identifying herself as a resident of the block that was destroyed, she says: "Snizhne was bombed this morning and my home was bombed to bits."

Accusing Ukrainian forces of attacking their own people, she calls on Russian President Vladimir Putin to send in troops to defend them.

Local officials said four people had been killed while a rebel spokesman told Russia's Interfax news agency that "about 10" civilians had been killed when a single Ukrainian jet fired five rockets.

Ukrainian Security Council spokesman Andriy Lysenko confirmed that the town had been bombed, with damage and casualties.

But he told reporters in Kiev that the town had been attacked by an unknown aircraft with the aim of discrediting Ukrainian government forces.

Ukrainian defence analyst Dmitry Tymchuk argued on Facebook that the attack could only have been carried out by Russian jets as Ukrainian planes had carried out no flights since the An-26 transport plane was downed on Monday.

It would be the first known occasion when a Russian warplane had become involved in the conflict, if true.

Plane dispute
In Monday's incident, Ukrainian officials said the An-26 had been hit at an altitude of 6,500m (21,325ft) and must have been targeted with "a more powerful missile" than a shoulder-carried missile, "probably fired" from Russia.

When fully loaded, the plane can fly at 7,600m.

However, defence analyst Charles Heyman, who edits a book called Armed Forces of the European Union, questioned the likelihood of the plane flying at high altitude.

He told the Associated Press news agency the missile was more likely to have been fired by rebels.

"I doubt the transport plane was flying at 6,500m," he said. "That doesn't make sense. The higher you fly, the more it costs, and the plane would have had to be pressurised. It was probably shot down using Sam-6 missiles owned by the rebels, which they have quite a few of."

Mr Lysenko said two of the plane's crew who survived appeared to have been captured by the rebels. Other members of the crew who did not manage to parachute to safety are believed to have been killed, with human remains found in the wreckage.

Rockets struck Luhansk's southern suburb of Mirny on Monday, setting cars on fire in a car park, as an unverified video posted on YouTube appears to show.

Both government and rebel forces are known to have multiple-rocket launchers in the region.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Russia should retaliate in the same way Israel retaliates when the Palestines fire rockets on its territory.

squidhills wrote:On a less serious note, Iron_Captain, can you please never ever change your avatar? You have picked the ultimate, the perfect, the ideal avatar to represent yourself. It has Putin in it, and a balloon animal; it captures both your love of Russia and the general good-natured attitude you have on the forum. If they gave out awards for avatars, you'd win first prize.

chaos0xomega wrote:So, I've had the theme song to "Papers, Please" on infinite loop all day today at work, and Iron_Captain's avatar seemingly syncs up perfectly with the music... its mesmerizing...

chaos0xomega wrote:
Do no harm.

The people who believe Russia is actively instigating the crisis didn't need this video to confirm their beliefs. The people who don't believe the Russians are actively involved will start by asking for more credible sources. If the BBC picks it up, they will mention the biases of the Western media and their desire to bring Russia down. Only when Putin comes out and admit to lying will they finally start making excuses for his actions.

 Soladrin wrote:
Just heard this on the news on the drive home:

Boeing 777 with 280 passengers from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed 50 kilometres from Russian border, in the Ukraine. Supposedly shot down but no confirmation yet.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/malaysian-airlines-boeing-777-295-passengers-aboard-crashes-ukraine-1457111

Shoulder-launched missiles only go to about 20,000 feet. 33,000 feet is pro-army range. https://t.co/fyJ87pfB0b

— Cuffé (@CuffyMeh) July 17, 2014

 ashikenshin wrote:
I don't see how any side gains from killing innocent people and destroying a plane from a different country.

Just seems like Malasya airlines is really terrible with it's planes.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Well, the terrorists themselves claim having it shot down.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Well, the terrorists themselves claim having it shot down.