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As mentioned before: Separatists had at least one BUK mobile launcher they were "given" or acquired from a captured AA facility. It was located in Donetsk, near where this aircraft was shot down.

The leader of the Separatist group posted on Twitter, boasting about having shot down an AN-26 belonging to the Ukraine just 20 minutes after the Malaysian airliner went down, and gave the same location. He mentioned that they warned not to fly in their skies.

Apparently after receiving notice that the plane was a civilian airliner, all those posts were scrubbed from the internet.


And there are plenty of Russian advisors on the ground there.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

Mogadishu TransAVIAexport Airlines Il-76 crash. That's the one I was thinking of, though I thought it was an airliner.

There are way more of these than I thought there were.

I've a feeling no advisors was with the vehicle if it was the system that claimed the Malaysia aircraft. Strong indication it was but that .01% lingers

Edit

Jennifer Griffin gets better looking over time

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Such AA systems are not a matter of just having a vehicle and a manual. They require an extensive network of radar systems, launcher vehicles and advanced knowledge that should not be available to a bunch of rebels. A Buk AA missile system for example includes no less than 10 different vehicles. Whoever shot down that plane must have had a lot of prior experience with the system.
I also find it doubtful Russia would supply the seperatists with such advanced equipment. If Russia does turn out to have done so, I wonder what is next. Nuclear missiles?

According to a commentator from Jane's on the BBC, although the Buk system generally operates in a network of three vehicles with a separate, more powerful radar, the missile-launcher vehicle has its own, more limited forward-facing radar. It can operate independently.

The BBC carried early reports from the US that satellites have identified where the missile came from, geographically, which should help identify the culprit.

As always, Russia Today is a real treat. Check out their take on this here. Note how they never use the word "killed" or "dead", and never even mention that every single person on board died. On the other hand the Ukrainian government almost definitely shot it down...despite the fact that they'd have no need whatsoever to deploy anti-aircraft missiles, let alone indiscriminately firing one at a civilian airliner

Iron. If I had a English version of a Dash 10. I would more likely have it moved, emplaced, and combat operational under maybe six hours. Longer if I have to put up camo nets

Well this a dramatic but i don't think it changes anything. Not like Europe is going to enact sanctions for the same reasons they're not right now. They would do more harm to them than Russia. Just can't really think of any change this incident would start. 295 people are dead but the war goes on.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well this a dramatic but i don't think it changes anything. Not like Europe is going to enact sanctions for the same reasons they're not right now. They would do more harm to them than Russia. Just can't really think of any change this incident would start. 295 people are dead but the war goes on.

We'll see, won't we, but I would guess that if the early evidence that Russian-backed rebels were responsible is borne out, then this is a game -changer. There were 140 Dutch, plus many other Europeans on that flight; tougher sanctions or embargoes look inevitable.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well this a dramatic but i don't think it changes anything. Not like Europe is going to enact sanctions for the same reasons they're not right now. They would do more harm to them than Russia. Just can't really think of any change this incident would start. 295 people are dead but the war goes on.

On the contrary. Russia is almost definitely in a recession, those Western sanctions threaten the sort of middle-class jobs that Putin was credited with bringing the Russian people their recent prosperity. If large modern Russian corporations start having to slash a few thousand middle-class jobs, that could make Putin rather worried. They can play the nationalism card all they want, but this isn't the Russia of the 80s that could survive alone against the world, sustained on its own goods and services. This is a new, richer Russia. They need the EU and the US if they want to raise themselves up to our living standards, they certainly aren't going to get anywhere selling coal and oil to the Chinese.

KommissarKarl wrote:
As always, Russia Today is a real treat. Check out their take on this here. Note how they never use the word "killed" or "dead", and never even mention that every single person on board died. On the other hand the Ukrainian government almost definitely shot it down...despite the fact that they'd have no need whatsoever to deploy anti-aircraft missiles, let alone indiscriminately firing one at a civilian airliner

That is at least better than some other Russian media sources, who claim the plane was shot down on orders of the US. But one should not expect impartiality from RT, no? They are no more impartial than Ukrainian media is, who shout that Russia has shot down the plane.
It is also true that the Ukrainian government deployed Buk missile launchers in the area. Of course, that does not mean that they were the ones to accidently shoot the plane down. The launcher could have been captured by seperatists just as well. Still wonder how they fired it though.

 Jihadin wrote:
Iron. If I had a English version of a Dash 10. I would more likely have it moved, emplaced, and combat operational under maybe six hours. Longer if I have to put up camo nets

I still highly doubt it, but I believe you have military experience, whereas I do not, so I will take your word for it.

KommissarKarl wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well this a dramatic but i don't think it changes anything. Not like Europe is going to enact sanctions for the same reasons they're not right now. They would do more harm to them than Russia. Just can't really think of any change this incident would start. 295 people are dead but the war goes on.

On the contrary. Russia is almost definitely in a recession, those Western sanctions threaten the sort of middle-class jobs that Putin was credited with bringing the Russian people their recent prosperity. If large modern Russian corporations start having to slash a few thousand middle-class jobs, that could make Putin rather worried. They can play the nationalism card all they want, but this isn't the Russia of the 80s that could survive alone against the world, sustained on its own goods and services. This is a new, richer Russia. They need the EU and the US if they want to raise themselves up to our living standards, they certainly aren't going to get anywhere selling coal and oil to the Chinese.

They just banned imports of Kalashnikov Concern products to the US, which AFAIK were its lifeline for the time being. If that goes under, that certainly won't look good, unless they want to spend a lot of money maintaining an idle arms factory, which isn't good either.

That said, I still want my SGL-31, so am hoping that gets reversed at some point.

KommissarKarl wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well this a dramatic but i don't think it changes anything. Not like Europe is going to enact sanctions for the same reasons they're not right now. They would do more harm to them than Russia. Just can't really think of any change this incident would start. 295 people are dead but the war goes on.

On the contrary. Russia is almost definitely in a recession, those Western sanctions threaten the sort of middle-class jobs that Putin was credited with bringing the Russian people their recent prosperity. If large modern Russian corporations start having to slash a few thousand middle-class jobs, that could make Putin rather worried. They can play the nationalism card all they want, but this isn't the Russia of the 80s that could survive alone against the world, sustained on its own goods and services. This is a new, richer Russia. They need the EU and the US if they want to raise themselves up to our living standards, they certainly aren't going to get anywhere selling coal and oil to the Chinese.

Well, the US sanctions really are not doing much. Russia barely has any economic contacts with the US. The EU sanctions on the other hand are rather painful. Russia has a lot of trade with the EU (and the Netherlands especially), it makes up over half of Russia's total trade. Of course, the EU sanctions work both ways, but the EU has more available alternatives and a stronger internal market than Russia has.
Still, it is not a real recession, the Russian economy is still growing, albeit much slower than before. The Russian economy is more in danger of the other issues *cough*corruption*cough* listed in the article than it is has to fear any kind of sanctions.

KommissarKarl wrote:
As always, Russia Today is a real treat. Check out their take on this here. Note how they never use the word "killed" or "dead", and never even mention that every single person on board died. On the other hand the Ukrainian government almost definitely shot it down...despite the fact that they'd have no need whatsoever to deploy anti-aircraft missiles, let alone indiscriminately firing one at a civilian airliner

it mentions several times that they are all dead in the video at the top of that report.

the top picture has dead people in the wreckage, i wouldn't exactly call that proof of your conspiracy to cover something up.

pretty convenient that a twitter account claims its a separatist and claims responsibility just in time, because twitter is totally like, OMG credible!

official separatist channels deny involvement, they have no reason to shoot civy aircraft.

TLDR

BBC says the separatists did it perhaps even backed by russia. Then convenient things like the twitter post mentioned happen. All this on the tail of russia being shelled, which is a slap to the face on russia. you dont advance the nato alliance to their front door, put anti ballisic missiles in their front door, and so on for no reason.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856
"Analysis: Jonathan Marcus, BBC News

If it does turn out that the Boeing 777 was shot down by the separatists - with weaponry supplied by Moscow - then it could significantly alter the terms of the whole debate surrounding the Ukraine crisis."

TLDR
RT says "both sides accuse each other" but its was kievs forces what done it and give some fairly reasonable reasons why. oh and BTW we actually asked the guys in charge of the separatists, and the do not claim responsibility for it.


http://rt.com/news/173616-malaysian-crash-ukraine-border/

That russian sources are able to find a specific force capable of shooting down the plane that we can identify as in the area, as compared to wildly accusing a force that in all likelihood does not have that equipment.
"
Donetsk People's Republic PM Aleksandr Boroday has called the incident a “provocation by the Ukrainian military”.

“We confirm that the plane crashed not far from Donetsk,” Boroday said. “Representatives of Donetsk People's Republic have headed to the scene of the plane search.”

“Self-defense forces have no air-defense, which could target transport aircraft at that height,” he told Interfax.

“We have only MANPADs (portable anti-aircraft missile complex) which hit targets at 3-4 kilometers,” Sergey Kavtaradze, representative for Donetsk People’s Republic PM, also told journalists.

Russia’s military also says none of its military planes have been flying close to the Russia-Ukraine border on Thursday, RIA Novosti reported citing a military official.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has not ruled out that a Malaysian plane has been shot down.

“We don’t rule out that this plane was shot down and stress that Ukrainian forces did not fulfill any actions targeting in the air,” Poroshenko said. He added that an investigation commission will be launched.

At the same time, Anton Geraschenko said on his Facebook page that the plane was targeted from the air defense missile complex "Buk".

RIA Novosti is citing its source who said that Kiev indeed deployed “Buk” in the Donetsk region.

“According to the system of objective control, "Buk" division of the armed forces of Ukraine was relocated to Donetsk region on Wednesday. Now in Kharkov another division is being prepared,” the source said.

The sources stressed that aircraft flying at an altitude of over 10 kilometers can only be targeted by C-300 class weapons or ‘Buk”. "

see its on facebook, that cool enough as twitter to be legit right?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well this a dramatic but i don't think it changes anything. Not like Europe is going to enact sanctions for the same reasons they're not right now. They would do more harm to them than Russia. Just can't really think of any change this incident would start. 295 people are dead but the war goes on.

On the contrary. Russia is almost definitely in a recession, those Western sanctions threaten the sort of middle-class jobs that Putin was credited with bringing the Russian people their recent prosperity. If large modern Russian corporations start having to slash a few thousand middle-class jobs, that could make Putin rather worried. They can play the nationalism card all they want, but this isn't the Russia of the 80s that could survive alone against the world, sustained on its own goods and services. This is a new, richer Russia. They need the EU and the US if they want to raise themselves up to our living standards, they certainly aren't going to get anywhere selling coal and oil to the Chinese.

Well, the US sanctions really are not doing much. Russia barely has any economic contacts with the US. The EU sanctions on the other hand are rather painful. Russia has a lot of trade with the EU (and the Netherlands especially), it makes up over half of Russia's total trade. Of course, the EU sanctions work both ways, but the EU has more available alternatives and a stronger internal market than Russia has.
Still, it is not a real recession, the Russian economy is still growing, albeit much slower than before. The Russian economy is more in danger of the other issues *cough*corruption*cough* listed in the article than it is has to fear any kind of sanctions.

Oh aye. The EU has a stranglehold on Russia - we're the only place that they can buy first-world commodities - high-end tech from northern Europe, financial services from London - but anything we buy from Russia we can buy elsewhere, even if it does hit our pockets. It may hurt, but nothing like it would hurt Russia if all trade were to be suspended. And the Russian people would know exactly who to blame, too. Easy access to free media outlets means it's unlikely the Kremlin could pull off such a lie that had such huge ramifications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
*snip*

So, do you get paid by the Kremlin to make posts by this or do they repay you in kind?

KommissarKarl wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
*snip*

So, do you get paid by the Kremlin to make posts by this or do they repay you in kind?

so do you have anything other then wild conspiracy theories that Im a paid kremlen goon,

or are you too busy with being uninformed and so brainwashed that you just accused an article of "covering up" the fact that people died, despite the article clearly stating everyone died.

You would never ever think that somehow you were only looking at one side of the story, because that makes you a lousy putinista-nazi robot right?


beside which, my services of correcting you when you are wrong are free of charge, its a public service up here in canukistan. they do ration it a bit like health care, but grease the wheels with a few molsens and beaver pelts, and you can always get more.

I've had to delete several posts for an off-topic line of discussion. Please also keep in mind that sexism is a line we try to stay very far from on Dakka. This is a real conflict being discussed and making light of the humanitarian issues involved can lead to at best a flame war. Please try to be sensitive to the issues at hand in posts / lines of discussion going forward, so that this thread can remain open.

Thanks.

Apparently MSNBC got some Staff at the Embassy in Ukraine who witness the shoot down from his window in Kiev

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Iron. If I had a English version of a Dash 10. I would more likely have it moved, emplaced, and combat operational under maybe six hours. Longer if I have to put up camo nets

I still highly doubt it, but I believe you have military experience, whereas I do not, so I will take your word for it.

If this AA system is a piece of military hardware (which it is) the Technical Manual for it is almost always written in such a way that ANYONE can pick up the book, look in the table of contents, see the section that reads "Operations" flip there, and read/do each thing step by step, as it's read.

I know that US TMs are written to an "8th grade reading level" so I can only assume that other nations have done similar with their military equipment. This is especially true if this is Soviet era equipment, as that stuff was sold to all kinds of "uneducated" militant types.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Iron. If I had a English version of a Dash 10. I would more likely have it moved, emplaced, and combat operational under maybe six hours. Longer if I have to put up camo nets

I still highly doubt it, but I believe you have military experience, whereas I do not, so I will take your word for it.

If this AA system is a piece of military hardware (which it is) the Technical Manual for it is almost always written in such a way that ANYONE can pick up the book, look in the table of contents, see the section that reads "Operations" flip there, and read/do each thing step by step, as it's read.

I know that US TMs are written to an "8th grade reading level" so I can only assume that other nations have done similar with their military equipment. This is especially true if this is Soviet era equipment, as that stuff was sold to all kinds of "uneducated" militant types.

I noticing that its not being mention in the news at all. Even those with military backgrounds seemed to have brain dump that piece of info

The rebels have plenty of army deserters. The idea that they'd have guys who know how to run BUKs isn't exactly far-fetched.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well this a dramatic but i don't think it changes anything. Not like Europe is going to enact sanctions for the same reasons they're not right now. They would do more harm to them than Russia. Just can't really think of any change this incident would start. 295 people are dead but the war goes on.

We'll see, won't we, but I would guess that if the early evidence that Russian-backed rebels were responsible is borne out, then this is a game -changer. There were 140 Dutch, plus many other Europeans on that flight; tougher sanctions or embargoes look inevitable.

How though? Like even if they find a smoking gun or Putin'a signature in the missile or something like that aren't sanctions a two edged sword? Doesn't Europe get almost all it's energy from Russia? Other than being angrier what can the West do?

that they might have one or two guys who can set it up yeah, but a stolen BUK would have been reported, or ukraine would be blaring a list of stolen ones by now, the only confirmed hardware in the region capable of it is in the hands of kievs military.

 easysauce wrote:
that they might have one or two guys who can set it up yeah, but a stolen BUK would have been reported, or ukraine would be blaring a list of stolen ones by now, the only confirmed hardware in the region capable of it is in the hands of kievs military.

No, there's quite a lot of it in the hands of Russia's military as well.

And a suspicious amount of equipment does seem to be walking out of Russian inventory and into the rebels'.

 easysauce wrote:
that they might have one or two guys who can set it up yeah, but a stolen BUK would have been reported, or ukraine would be blaring a list of stolen ones by now, the only confirmed hardware in the region capable of it is in the hands of kievs military.

Why would they report it, and openly admit such failure? That would destroy their entire propaganda effort. It is not like they have reported on all the hardware that went missing previously.
And besides that, old hardware has been "disappearing" from Ukrainian and Russian stockpiles for years.
It is extremely easy to get a tank in Ukraine. Tank graveyards like this one:
can be found all over the country, and they are usually very badly guarded, if at all.

 Seaward wrote:
And a suspicious amount of equipment does seem to be walking out of Russian inventory and into the rebels'.

That is still unproven, unless you are referring to the former Ukrainian equipment on Crimea that mysteriously 'found its way' to Eastern Ukraine.

KommissarKarl wrote:

Oh aye. The EU has a stranglehold on Russia - we're the only place that they can buy first-world commodities - high-end tech from northern Europe, financial services from London - but anything we buy from Russia we can buy elsewhere, even if it does hit our pockets. It may hurt, but nothing like it would hurt Russia if all trade were to be suspended. And the Russian people would know exactly who to blame, too. Easy access to free media outlets means it's unlikely the Kremlin could pull off such a lie that had such huge ramifications.

What a load of rubbish. Have you ever looked on the back of these first world commodities. ?
Hint they're all made in china, or with Chinese parts. Anything they want or need can be bought from china.
That electricity you're using to post on dakka, generated using Russian gas. That computer you're using, Chinese parts.

It seems 100 of the people on that plane were heading to an AIDS conference, and possibly included top researchers/medical people.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
It seems 100 of the people on that plane were heading to an AIDS conference, and possibly included top researchers/medical people.

Yep. And already people are saying it's "God's will" and a punishment for the Netherlands allowing gay marriage...

Are you fething serious?

That's beyond fething pathetic.

Seriously? The black box was given to RUSSIA? This is just beyond stupid.

Turns out, it was a US missile started from Washington to shoot it down.

Goddarn.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
It seems 100 of the people on that plane were heading to an AIDS conference, and possibly included top researchers/medical people.

Yep. And already people are saying it's "God's will" and a punishment for the Netherlands allowing gay marriage...

So... can we start killing homophobes yet? Cause at this point I'm totally down with that.