Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!

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**The Grumpy Eldar**

Yup, these so called armed rebbels need to be shot on sight around the crash site. Researchers who were working there are sent away by these dirtbags while they just destroy evidence and keep the bodies out there with this heat, it's disgusting. Putin is basically ignoring everything.

On top of that Russia keeps blaming it on the Ukraine if you look at the Russian Wikipedia page of the crash. There is a Twitter Bot that tells when the Russian government changes certain wikipedia pages. That doesn't help them either.

**Soladrin**

These are the people we may refer to as respect-less filth.

**Sigvatr**

The Netherlands have ordered their banks to immediately close down all accounts of people having died in the plane crash because of terrorists who stole the credit cards.

Classy. Real classy.

**Soladrin**

feth me these people are disgusting.

**Iron_Captain**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.

Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.

The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough.
If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?

The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting.
For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.

The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them. They are afraid that those international organisations not be fair in their research and will attempt to put all blame on them. That is why they are so reluctant in giving them unlimited access to the crash site. What makes it even more complicated is that the seperatists are not really a unified whole. They consist of several different groups, so if you make a deal with one commander, that does not mean another commander will respect that.
The remains of the victims have not been taken care of yet because it is simply not possible to do so. There is not enough capacity in the area to transport and store so many bodies. The bodies are supposed to be taken to Kharkov, which is a very large city with enough capacity, but Kharkov lies outside of seperatist-controlled area, and thus they can't take them there. And they don't trust the Ukrainians enough to let them in to take care of the bodies. Furthermore, the area is a warzone. Kiev has not stopped its offensive, so the seperatists have other things on their mind than dealing with the air crash.
All in all, it is a very unfortunate situation.

**Soladrin**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.

Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.

The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough.
If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?

The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting.
For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.
The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them. They are afraid that those international organisations not be fair in their research and will attempt to put all blame on them. That is why they are so reluctant in giving them unlimited access to the crash site. What makes it even more complicated is that the seperatists are not really a unified whole. They consist of several different groups, so if you make a deal with one commander, that does not mean another commander will respect that.
The remains of the victims have not been taken care of yet because it is simply not possible to do so. There is not enough capacity in the area to transport and store so many bodies. The bodies are supposed to be taken to Kharkov, which is a very large city with enough capacity, but Kharkov lies outside of seperatist-controlled area, and thus they can't take them there. And they don't trust the Ukrainians enough to let them in to take care of the bodies. Furthermore, the area is a warzone. Kiev has not stopped its offensive, so the seperatists have other things on their mind than dealing with the air crash.
All in all, it is a very unfortunate situation.

Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

**The Grumpy Eldar**

Yeah because the Pro-Russian Separatists are sooooooo... trustworthy themselves. I have seen enough that both parties aren't doing great either. But the Russian side just makes it worse and worse for themselves. For poop sake the damned Separatists basically admitted doing this it via their so called Russian Facebook.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

If I was a member of the Ukraine government, I'd make securing the crash site and facilitating an investigation by International organisations a top Military priority. If there is anything that will finally prompt Western governments to pull their collective finger out of their collective arse and take decisive action against Russia, then THIS is it - the manslaughter of hundreds of Western citizens.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Soladrin wrote:
Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

Oh for feths sake, hes not apologising for Russia (in fact, he wasn't even talking about Russia, hes talking about the Ukrainian Seperatists), hes explaining the mindset of the various Separatist groups and their motives for impeding any investigation into the crash, which naturally complicates the situation.

Text removed.
Reds8n

You really ought to stop over reacting to everything he says.

**Iron_Captain**

Soladrin wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.

Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.

The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough.
If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?

The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting.
For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.
The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them. They are afraid that those international organisations not be fair in their research and will attempt to put all blame on them. That is why they are so reluctant in giving them unlimited access to the crash site. What makes it even more complicated is that the seperatists are not really a unified whole. They consist of several different groups, so if you make a deal with one commander, that does not mean another commander will respect that.
The remains of the victims have not been taken care of yet because it is simply not possible to do so. There is not enough capacity in the area to transport and store so many bodies. The bodies are supposed to be taken to Kharkov, which is a very large city with enough capacity, but Kharkov lies outside of seperatist-controlled area, and thus they can't take them there. And they don't trust the Ukrainians enough to let them in to take care of the bodies. Furthermore, the area is a warzone. Kiev has not stopped its offensive, so the seperatists have other things on their mind than dealing with the air crash.
All in all, it is a very unfortunate situation.

Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

I wasn't aware I was apolgising for Russia. Russia has little direct influence on this situation. I was talking about the seperatists, and whether you like it or not, what I said was true. The seperatists don't trust the Ukrainian authorities nor Western organisations, and for good reasons.

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Yeah because the Pro-Russian Separatists are sooooooo... trustworthy themselves. I have seen enough that both parties aren't doing great either. But the Russian side just makes it worse and worse for themselves. For poop sake the damned Separatists basically admitted doing this it via their so called Russian Facebook.

No, the seperatists are not trustworthy either, but that is not the point here.
And it is called VKontakte, not 'the Russian Facebook'. That is only a term Western media invented because ignorant Westerners don't know anything about Russia/Ukraine/Belarus and otherwise would not be able to understand what it is.

**Sigvatr**

Soladrin wrote:

Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award

**Soladrin**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.

Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.

The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough.
If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?

The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting.
For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.
The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them. They are afraid that those international organisations not be fair in their research and will attempt to put all blame on them. That is why they are so reluctant in giving them unlimited access to the crash site. What makes it even more complicated is that the seperatists are not really a unified whole. They consist of several different groups, so if you make a deal with one commander, that does not mean another commander will respect that.
The remains of the victims have not been taken care of yet because it is simply not possible to do so. There is not enough capacity in the area to transport and store so many bodies. The bodies are supposed to be taken to Kharkov, which is a very large city with enough capacity, but Kharkov lies outside of seperatist-controlled area, and thus they can't take them there. And they don't trust the Ukrainians enough to let them in to take care of the bodies. Furthermore, the area is a warzone. Kiev has not stopped its offensive, so the seperatists have other things on their mind than dealing with the air crash.
All in all, it is a very unfortunate situation.

Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

I wasn't aware I was apolgising for Russia. Russia has little direct influence on this situation. I was talking about the seperatists, and whether you like it or not, what I said was true. The seperatists don't trust the Ukrainian authorities nor Western organisations, and for good reasons.

That reason being that they are traitors? Fair enough.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.

Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.

The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough.
If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?

The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting.
For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.
The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them. They are afraid that those international organisations not be fair in their research and will attempt to put all blame on them. That is why they are so reluctant in giving them unlimited access to the crash site. What makes it even more complicated is that the seperatists are not really a unified whole. They consist of several different groups, so if you make a deal with one commander, that does not mean another commander will respect that.
The remains of the victims have not been taken care of yet because it is simply not possible to do so. There is not enough capacity in the area to transport and store so many bodies. The bodies are supposed to be taken to Kharkov, which is a very large city with enough capacity, but Kharkov lies outside of seperatist-controlled area, and thus they can't take them there. And they don't trust the Ukrainians enough to let them in to take care of the bodies. Furthermore, the area is a warzone. Kiev has not stopped its offensive, so the seperatists have other things on their mind than dealing with the air crash.
All in all, it is a very unfortunate situation.

Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

I wasn't aware I was apolgising for Russia. Russia has little direct influence on this situation. I was talking about the seperatists, and whether you like it or not, what I said was true. The seperatists don't trust the Ukrainian authorities nor Western organisations, and for good reasons.

So there are multiple Separatist groups with seperate chains of Command. Do you acknowledge that its possible that the particular group responsible for shooting down MH17 (assuming that it was the Separatists, which I think is the case) could be attempting to cover up their act by tampering with the crime scene?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sigvatr wrote:
Soladrin wrote:

Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award

Oh, you mean like President Obama's Nobel Peace Prize? I bet all the civilians in Yemen and Pakistan are real grateful for all the love bombs he sent their way.

**Jihadin**

Love missiles. Their Love Missiles.

**Iron_Captain**

Sigvatr wrote:
Soladrin wrote:

Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award

To be fair, Putin deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama did. At least Putin actually managed to stop the US from bombing Syria, destroying the Assad regime and allowing ISIS to take over the entire region. Wouldn't be the first time the US helped terrorists to get to power.

**The Grumpy Eldar**

Iron_Captain wrote:
And it is called VKontakte, not 'the Russian Facebook'. That is only a term Western media invented because ignorant Westerners don't know anything about Russia/Ukraine/Belarus and otherwise would not be able to understand what it is.

Why would I even look up whatever it's called. It's unimportant as it's basicly the same thing.

And this whole thing is to blame on one Seperatists group that was active in that area. It doesn't help that their "Leader" has close ties to the Russian Secret Service either.

**Sigvatr**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Oh, you mean like President Obama's Nobel Peace Prize? I bet all the civilians in Yemen and Pakistan are real grateful for all the love bombs he sent their way.

I purposefully did not refer to the Nobel Prize because it lost all meaning after Obama got it for nothing - sadly.

**whembly**

Sigvatr wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Oh, you mean like President Obama's Nobel Peace Prize? I bet all the civilians in Yemen and Pakistan are real grateful for all the love bombs he sent their way.

I purposefully did not refer to the Nobel Prize because it lost all meaning after Obama got it for nothing - sadly.

Not true... he got it largely for being the first black US President. Oh... and lowers sea levels... Oh... to restore US in the view of the world.

**Sigvatr**

whembly wrote:

Not true... he got it largely for being the first black US President. Oh... and lowers sea levels... Oh... to restore US in the view of the world.

I fully apologize! How could I forget about his eternal struggle to a winning complexion...I am ashamed of myself D:

**His Master's Voice**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Soladrin wrote:

Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award
To be fair, Putin deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama did. At least Putin actually managed to stop the US from bombing Syria, destroying the Assad regime and allowing ISIS to take over the entire region. Wouldn't be the first time the US helped terrorists to get to power.

Good one. Shame the ISIL exists primarily because Russia and China allowed the Syrian rot to fester for so long.

**loki old fart**

His Master's Voice wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Soladrin wrote:

Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award
To be fair, Putin deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama did. At least Putin actually managed to stop the US from bombing Syria, destroying the Assad regime and allowing ISIS to take over the entire region. Wouldn't be the first time the US helped terrorists to get to power.

Good one. Shame the ISIL exists primarily because Russia and China allowed the Syrian rot to fester for so long.

Yeah right.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

His Master's Voice wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Soladrin wrote:

Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?

Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award
To be fair, Putin deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama did. At least Putin actually managed to stop the US from bombing Syria, destroying the Assad regime and allowing ISIS to take over the entire region. Wouldn't be the first time the US helped terrorists to get to power.

Good one. Shame the ISIL exists primarily because Russia and China allowed the Syrian rot to fester for so long.

Thats some weird logic.

We the West wanted to back the rebel groups fighting the Syrian regime, among which was ISIS. If we'd had our way and the Syrian regime was overthrown, some of the very same people now invading Iraq might have been able to seize power in Syria... or, more likely, the rebel groups would have simply turned on each other in their moment of victory, competing amongst themselves for power in the new Syria, as is happening in Libya.

The way I see it, the main reason why ISIS is so powerful now is because Assad failed to stamp it out in the first place along with the various other rebel groups.

**WarOne**

Maybe we forgot to think that the strongmen of the Arab world were what kept the crazy fringe groups under control.

In every nation now under siege in one way or another, the strongman fell and the factions bubbling underneath oozed through the cracks and became significant threats.

Now Syria, Iraq, ect. are all under duress.

**LordofHats**

America done dropped the hammer;

http://news.yahoo.com/u-official-says-russia-gave-missiles-separatists-035033737.html

A U.S. official confirmed to The Washington Post on Saturday that Russia supplied advanced missile launchers to separatist groups in Ukraine, and that those launchers were moved back across the border after the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17. The Russian government has so far denied sending weapons to the rebel groups, and the rebels have denied possessing them, though they have boasted online about shooting down other aircraft.

According to the report by journalists Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung, U.S. intelligence officials learned "a little more than a week ago" that Russia was attempting to move the weapon systems, known as the Buk-M1, into Ukraine. Several videos have surfaced over the last two days of the mobile launchers being moved on Ukrainian roads, including back toward the Russian border, though those videos were unconfirmed. This would appear to be the first direct accusation from American sources tying the disaster to the Russian government.

Although Ukraine has their own versions of the Russian-made Buk missiles, the government claims they did not leave any behind in separatist controlled-areas. If true, the missiles could likely have only come from the other side of the Russian border.

Earlier on Saturday, the Ukrainian government announced it had evidence directly tying the Russians to the crash. The head of Kiev's state security service, Vitaly Nayda, displayed pictures of Buk missiles being moved toward the Russian border.

Meanwhile, officials from several countries who lost citizens in the crash are growing increasingly frustrated with the inability to secure the crash site for a proper investigation, and to recover the bodies of the victims. Journalists on the scene report that armed separatists, some of whom were visibly drunk, denied foreign investigators access to the site on Saturday. There are also a number of reports that the bodies of some of the victims have been taken away to unknown locations, possibly to hide or destroy evidence. Those that remain are quickly decomposing in the heat and humidity, and much of their personal property has been looted.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte is reportedly "furious" with Russian President Vladimir Putin, with whom he had a tense and "personal" phone conversation on Saturday. "I told him 'time is running out for you to show the world that you have good intentions, that you will take responsibility,'" Rutte said. At least 193 of the 298 people on board the plane were from the Netherlands. Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott (who lost 28 of his own citizens) has essentially accused Russia of being complicit in the attack and threatened to withhold Putin's invitation to the G20 summit in November.

**Canis**

The UN or NATO should (with permission from the Ukrainian Government) enter Ukraine & surround/secure the crash site to permit investigation & full recovery.

I'm sure with a sizeable deployment, the Pro-Russian Rebels & the Russians would have to seriously rethink.
(A fleet in the Black Sea would be very persuasive).

It could end the nonsense that should have been taken care of months ago, and prevent further escalation.

Action is overdue.

**Seaward**

Canis wrote:
The UN or NATO should (with permission from the Ukrainian Government) enter Ukraine & surround/secure the crash site to permit investigation & full recovery.

I'm sure with a sizeable deployment, the Pro-Russian Rebels & the Russians would have to seriously rethink.
(A fleet in the Black Sea would be very persuasive).

It could end the nonsense that should have been taken care of months ago, and prevent further escalation.

Action is overdue.

Good luck, have fun!

**WarOne**

Seaward wrote:
Canis wrote:
The UN or NATO should (with permission from the Ukrainian Government) enter Ukraine & surround/secure the crash site to permit investigation & full recovery.

I'm sure with a sizeable deployment, the Pro-Russian Rebels & the Russians would have to seriously rethink.
(A fleet in the Black Sea would be very persuasive).

It could end the nonsense that should have been taken care of months ago, and prevent further escalation.

Action is overdue.

Good luck, have fun!

Or non-action would be best.

I may sound crazy, but the United States taking a hands off approach militarily to the world has worked wonders. Everywhere is so entrenched in conflict no one is bothering to harass the United States anymore, save for Putin who is the greatest Russian troll who has ever lived. And also N. Korea, but they're more or less an animal locked in a very secure cage.

**Jihadin**

LordofHats wrote:
America done dropped the hammer;

http://news.yahoo.com/u-official-says-russia-gave-missiles-separatists-035033737.html

A U.S. official confirmed to The Washington Post on Saturday that Russia supplied advanced missile launchers to separatist groups in Ukraine, and that those launchers were moved back across the border after the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17. The Russian government has so far denied sending weapons to the rebel groups, and the rebels have denied possessing them, though they have boasted online about shooting down other aircraft.

According to the report by journalists Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung, U.S. intelligence officials learned "a little more than a week ago" that Russia was attempting to move the weapon systems, known as the Buk-M1, into Ukraine. Several videos have surfaced over the last two days of the mobile launchers being moved on Ukrainian roads, including back toward the Russian border, though those videos were unconfirmed. This would appear to be the first direct accusation from American sources tying the disaster to the Russian government.

Although Ukraine has their own versions of the Russian-made Buk missiles, the government claims they did not leave any behind in separatist controlled-areas. If true, the missiles could likely have only come from the other side of the Russian border.

Earlier on Saturday, the Ukrainian government announced it had evidence directly tying the Russians to the crash. The head of Kiev's state security service, Vitaly Nayda, displayed pictures of Buk missiles being moved toward the Russian border.

Meanwhile, officials from several countries who lost citizens in the crash are growing increasingly frustrated with the inability to secure the crash site for a proper investigation, and to recover the bodies of the victims. Journalists on the scene report that armed separatists, some of whom were visibly drunk, denied foreign investigators access to the site on Saturday. There are also a number of reports that the bodies of some of the victims have been taken away to unknown locations, possibly to hide or destroy evidence. Those that remain are quickly decomposing in the heat and humidity, and much of their personal property has been looted.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte is reportedly "furious" with Russian President Vladimir Putin, with whom he had a tense and "personal" phone conversation on Saturday. "I told him 'time is running out for you to show the world that you have good intentions, that you will take responsibility,'" Rutte said. At least 193 of the 298 people on board the plane were from the Netherlands. Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott (who lost 28 of his own citizens) has essentially accused Russia of being complicit in the attack and threatened to withhold Putin's invitation to the G20 summit in November.

Wait. The Sep's did not captured any system at the base they over ran?

**LordofHats**

So the Ukraine claims. I've only just started paying attention to the whole thing over there with this incident. I haven't followed it for weeks now.

But it looks like the US Government is ready to start laying down accusations rather then dancing around the issue.

**EmilCrane**

LordofHats wrote:
So the Ukraine claims. I've only just started paying attention to the whole thing over there with this incident. I haven't followed it for weeks now.

But it looks like the US Government is ready to start laying down accusations rather then dancing around the issue.

Without wanting to be partisan (and I'm not considering I live in New Zealand) but the Obama administration is probably feeling like it needs something it can call a foreign policy victory, because recently it hasn't been looking that great for the US in the foreign policy front, at least in the eyes of the press

I mean after the Syria thing they were acting like Putin was the next Bismarck

In reality I think he bears more similarities to another famous German statesman

**Jihadin**

Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base. Now Ukraine is saying none were captured........now we have "video" of a SA11 in plain sight No tarp, no cover, no time frame, no attempt to cover (again) the SA11 on a flat bed. Going down a road apparently heading into Russia. Russia is not that freaking dumb to have the evidence in plain freaking sight.