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 EmilCrane wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
So the Ukraine claims. I've only just started paying attention to the whole thing over there with this incident. I haven't followed it for weeks now.

But it looks like the US Government is ready to start laying down accusations rather then dancing around the issue.

Without wanting to be partisan (and I'm not considering I live in New Zealand) but the Obama administration is probably feeling like it needs something it can call a foreign policy victory, because recently it hasn't been looking that great for the US in the foreign policy front, at least in the eyes of the press

I mean after the Syria thing they were acting like Putin was the next Bismarck

In reality I think he bears more similarities to another famous German statesman

Agreed

Also, since when has American not be fully willing to blame Russia for destabilizing the former Soviet Bloc

Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base.

Yeah someone whose been following this more closely probably in a better position to answer that. Be pretty ballsy for the Ukraine to change their story just now.

Well if one wants to know to repair, maintain and keep a Hawk Missile system operational
http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-9-1425-525-12-4.pdf

How to operate a FN-6 SAM Manpad
http://www.scribd.com/doc/95450404/FN-6-Operation-Manual

Actually. Have at it. A truck load of TM's

http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/all.mpl

I bet nut jobs like Alex Jones at Info Wars are having a field day,with this...

The Buk-M1, or SA-11 Gadfly is a nasty bit of kit, its believed that the Georgians downed a Tu-22 and three Su-25s with them during the 2008 war, and that the Russians themselves were not able to employ effective countermeasures against them.

I really don't get people who say "how could they have downed a commercial liner?" The Buk-M1 is designed to engage high speed military craft and even cruise missiles, a 777 is easy game for one

 EmilCrane wrote:
The Buk-M1, or SA-11 Gadfly is a nasty bit of kit, its believed that the Georgians downed a Tu-22 and three Su-25s with them during the 2008 war, and that the Russians themselves were not able to employ effective countermeasures against them.

I really don't get people who say "how could they have downed a commercial liner?" The Buk-M1 is designed to engage high speed military craft and even cruise missiles, a 777 is easy game for one

Like shooting a paper airplane with a bazooka...

 Jihadin wrote:
Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base. Now Ukraine is saying none were captured........now we have "video" of a SA11 in plain sight No tarp, no cover, no time frame, no attempt to cover (again) the SA11 on a flat bed. Going down a road apparently heading into Russia. Russia is not that freaking dumb to have the evidence in plain freaking sight.

On the BBC news it said, the missile system was moved back into Russia at 1am, IE in the dark. That film did not to my mind look like nighttime. They can't all be right. I hate feeling that the media is trying to manipulate me. Brings to mind TNG, Worf saying to the klingons
"you must think us stupid to make your lies so transparent."

This conflict is drenched in propaganda on both sides, as are all armed conflicts. The Ukranian Government will always have evidence of Russia's involvement (wether doctored or not) and vice versa.

Personally I think the seperatists are actually behind the shooting down of the plane, and by denying it they really don't help their cause and prove their guilt (I explain that further down). The already little respect some of the world had for them, will dissolve when the truth comes out that they actually shot down the plane. I think they are instructed by Russia to deny any responsibility as Russia no doubt supplies the rebels with weapons like tanks and the AA batteries. Furthermore Russia is stalling by promising everything about cooperating, launching independent investigations and so forth, for reasons not known, although probably those being delay tactics for covering up any Russian involvement and disposing of evidence.

I think the negative responses for the seperatists would be much less if they admitted making a mistake (if it was a mistake) as well as allowing access to foreign investigators to the disaster site. With this current stance, the rebels loose any respect they might have in the world as well as making them look very, very guilty (as if they were innocent, they would allow investigators on-site as that would mean evidence gathering against Ukraine). With the guilt of the seperatisits, Russia will get flak too and be hit with more severe sanctions, which will destroy the country even more.

Main priority is though; The bodies of the fallen now need to be collected and brought back to their homelands a.s.a.p.

 Jihadin wrote:
Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base. Now Ukraine is saying none were captured........now we have "video" of a SA11 in plain sight No tarp, no cover, no time frame, no attempt to cover (again) the SA11 on a flat bed. Going down a road apparently heading into Russia. Russia is not that freaking dumb to have the evidence in plain freaking sight.

Obviously the people they employ to destabilize their neighbors are.

Seriously, when is Russia going to change their name to "Lieingsacksofsh*tistan"?

Russia has no choice. It basically is a developing country that ups its status by huge military power. Without their military presence, all states would be all over the land. I.e. Africa. Russia is driven by corruption and a lack of freedom of speech in order to maintain the status quo, so they just cannot afford showing weakness in order to appease those really controlling the state: the rich ones. If the US/EU would decide on sanctions against the highest millionaires, a military reaction would be the only choice Russia has because - it has nothing else to offer.

The entire state is solely reliant on finite ressources. Not a concept made for the end of time to begin with.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base. Now Ukraine is saying none were captured........now we have "video" of a SA11 in plain sight No tarp, no cover, no time frame, no attempt to cover (again) the SA11 on a flat bed. Going down a road apparently heading into Russia. Russia is not that freaking dumb to have the evidence in plain freaking sight.

Obviously the people they employ to destabilize their neighbors are.

Seriously, when is Russia going to change their name to "Lieingsacksofsh*tistan"?

After the US has changed its name to Scheminghypocriticalmurderersia of course.

 Low_K wrote:
This conflict is drenched in propaganda on both sides, as are all armed conflicts. The Ukranian Government will always have evidence of Russia's involvement (wether doctored or not) and vice versa.

Personally I think the seperatists are actually behind the shooting down of the plane, and by denying it they really don't help their cause and prove their guilt (I explain that further down). The already little respect some of the world had for them, will dissolve when the truth comes out that they actually shot down the plane. I think they are instructed by Russia to deny any responsibility as Russia no doubt supplies the rebels with weapons like tanks and the AA batteries. Furthermore Russia is stalling by promising everything about cooperating, launching independent investigations and so forth, for reasons not known, although probably those being delay tactics for covering up any Russian involvement and disposing of evidence.

I think the negative responses for the seperatists would be much less if they admitted making a mistake (if it was a mistake) as well as allowing access to foreign investigators to the disaster site. With this current stance, the rebels loose any respect they might have in the world as well as making them look very, very guilty (as if they were innocent, they would allow investigators on-site as that would mean evidence gathering against Ukraine). With the guilt of the seperatisits, Russia will get flak too and be hit with more severe sanctions, which will destroy the country even more.

Main priority is though; The bodies of the fallen now need to be collected and brought back to their homelands a.s.a.p.

The seperatists themselves claim they are collecting the bodies (because they are starting to stink quite a lot) and taking them to Donetsk. The problem is that the mortuaria in Donetsk don't have enough capacity for all the bodies.
Curiously enough, the seperatists also claim to be very concerned over the absence so far of international experts (the only people so far to show up have been Western journalists and the OVSE, which is not trusted by the seperatists).
I don't know the truth about all this, so I guess I will just leave the RT article here so you can judge for yourself: http://rt.com/news/174200-international-experts-crash-site/

A top Ukrainian rebel leader said on Sunday that the pro-Russian fighters will guarantee the safety of international monitors at the Malaysian jet's crash site if Kiev agrees to a truce.

"We declare that we will guarantee the safety of international experts on the scene as soon as Kiev concludes a ceasefire agreement," the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic's deputy premier Andrei Purgin said in a statement.

He urged Kiev to "immediately conclude such an agreement" with the rebels.

Failure to do so would give the impression that the government is made up of "dangerous lunatics, bloodthirsty maniacs (who are) dangerous not only for the residents of Donbass but also for the world community", Purgin warned.

Purgin's statement came as the international community piled pressure on Russia to get the Moscow-backed rebels to grant investigators full access to the crash site of the Malaysian MH17 jet.

Hah. Fat chance of that happening. The government will just keep on bombing the Separatists and sending in the troops, whilst simultaneously feigning outrage and proclaiming to the world that the rebels are obstructing inspection of the site.

So the rebels are trying to use the crash as a form of bargaining chip against Kiev, and Kiev isn't playing that game, for now.

Ok.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
So the rebels are trying to use the crash as a form of bargaining chip against Kiev, and Kiev isn't playing that game, for now.

Ok.

Be that as it may, the crash site is in Rebel territory, and the Rebels apparently possess the Black Box and many of the bodies of the victims. The only way a proper inspection and investigation of the crash site can be carried out, and the victims repatriated is with the cooperation of the rebel Separatists.

Would you prefer the Kiev government prioritise killing Separatists over facilitating the investigation of a major international disaster and the repatriation of victims?


There should have been a ceasefire months ago, and the two sides brought to the negotiating table to find a mutually agreeable compromise e.g. Devolution for eastern Ukraine, in return for disarmament.

If the two sides can't even agree to a temporary ceasefire to allow International organisations to carry out an investigation and the repatriation of victims, then there is no hope for Ukraine.

So you're fine with them using it as a bargaining chip. Ok.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
So you're fine with them using it as a bargaining chip. Ok.

So you're fine with the Kiev Government taking the high road and refusing to compromise, whilst the victims lie forgotten and rotting in some run down bomb damaged morgue or warehouse whilst the War rages on? Ok.

Good to establish what your priorities are.

I just know that one party is there on the ground blocking access.

That party isn't related to Kiev.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I just know that one party is there on the ground blocking access.

That party isn't related to Kiev.

Its a fething WAR. The crash site is in Rebel territory. They posses the Black Box and the victims bodies. The morality of blocking the access of International organisations is irrelevant. They have the power here, so they're setting the terms.

The ONLY way the crash site and victims can be dealt with in a timely manner is with the cooperation of the Rebels, so that means a Ceasefire.

Does that mean I like them, or that I'm on their side? No of course not. They're despicable scum bags. But so are the fascists and nationalists who seized power in Kiev. Atrocities like this are happening every day, Ukrainian airstrikes are killing civilians.

No, it means the rebels allow access. A ceasefire isn't required. They're using this an international tragedy they caused as a bargaining chip to try get a ceasefire.

I personally think Kiev should actually go for a ceasefire because I fething hate war.

 LordofHats wrote:
So the Ukraine claims. I've only just started paying attention to the whole thing over there with this incident. I haven't followed it for weeks now.

But it looks like the US Government is ready to start laying down accusations rather then dancing around the issue.

Maybe Obama is finally ready to see reality instead of making half assed jokes about the 80's calling.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
No, it means the rebels allow access. A ceasefire isn't required. They're using this an international tragedy they caused as a bargaining chip to try get a ceasefire.

I personally think Kiev should actually go for a ceasefire because I fething hate war.

Yes, I get it. They're despicable scum bags, exploiting an atrocity that they inadvertently committed. But they're the ones in control, so for the sake of the victims' families Kiev should agree to a ceasefire so the Int. Investigators can do their job, and repatriate the victims ASAP.

Otherwise, they'll just obstruct any efforts, and the torment of the victims' families will be prolonged for months to come.

The Rebels are facing obliteration, they have nothing to lose by being obstructive. No ceasefire, no repatriation and investigation.


In the meantime, slap Russia with economic sanctions if they continue to supply arms (if indeed they are).

 Iron_Captain wrote:
((SNIP))
The seperatists themselves claim they are collecting the bodies (because they are starting to stink quite a lot) and taking them to Donetsk. The problem is that the mortuaria in Donetsk don't have enough capacity for all the bodies.
Curiously enough, the seperatists also claim to be very concerned over the absence so far of international experts (the only people so far to show up have been Western journalists and the OVSE, which is not trusted by the seperatists).
I don't know the truth about all this, so I guess I will just leave the RT article here so you can judge for yourself: http://rt.com/news/174200-international-experts-crash-site/

I noticed you being very pro-Russian, zaelously defending them and being Russian, I take it you actually were born there? As you are 14 I think you are still under the influence of your parents, who most likely raised you with Mother Russia as priority, forgetting most likely the state the country is now in. If you state that Russia is the a country without faults (not having to mention WWII) in the world and Putin really is a great guy (not to mention his KGB past) I truly doubt that you have been able to form an own opinion. Don't get me wrong, it is absolutely normal to have thoughts and opinions which are the same as your parents on that age, and you will form an own opinion when you get older (or stay with the same although that is rare when you are open to other viewpoints).
I personally like many Russian things like I find the Russian National Anthem one of the (if not THE) greatest in the world, love the Russian Fail- and Car Crash movies on Youtube and even have a Rebel Grot army of Russian based miniatures, but I also see the wrongs they did and still do. It is just your pink coloured glasses (dangerous thing to wear in Russia btw, luckily not in Holland ), that really cloud your judgement of the politics of that same Russia you defend with everything you got. If you would've been be older, I would have thought you were the personal designated spokesperson of Putin himself Not to sound harsh or anything, it is just that your replies sweet-talking many actions of rebels and (especially) Russia kinda gets annoying as you don't seem to be open for other people's views. Any criticism of Russia you counter as you did in reply to SlaveToDorkness' new name for Russia in not a very constructive way. I am amazed at your English writing skills on your age though!

Back to topic; You are posting an article which is hardly independent (as are most news stations though) as a few reporters even quit not wanting to be Putin's personal propaganda trumpet. I can recall that the first group of OVSE people on the site were harassed and sent away by the rebels on-site. I don't know what the Dutch Foreign Minister is doing back in Holland, as he was dispatched to the Ukraine, only to return without any progress, and don't know who made him turn back or that he found the situation too dangerous. The stance of the Dutch is very weak, but we are a small country and cannot just invade Eastern Ukraine and start securing the site, killing all who oppose us (although some action should be taken a a long time ago).

The reason the experts aren't there yet is that the situation is very fragile. The seperatists on-site are probably some rogue band of criminals without any overall command whatsoever (as they didn't strike me as very organised) and are difficult to give commands by anyone. I guess the news that the rebels await the experts is that they got rid of any evidence and are now willing to release the site. It is known that the black boxes of the plane are in their hands too and I truly hope they give it to the experts. The main thing is closure for the relatives and people close to the victims, and that starts by returning the bodies for proper burial. The guilt question and getting the people who did it comes way after that.

Ironically a lot of the countering has been in a very amusing form considering its history...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

And after seeing someone on another forum post, I have to say I no longer hate Iron Captain the most.

Pro Russian is one thing, Russian shilling another, but insane conspiracy nuts? I think they're my most hated.

All the black boxes will disappear into Russia where no one outside the country will have access. Then Russia will likely say nothing was recoverable or come out with some implausible and totally unverifiable story.

A giant hole in Siberia ate them.

He is still posting RT links?

Come on. If you go to RT to get info on anything that even borderlines being extremely slightly negative towards Russia, you might as well ask Tom Kirby what he thinks about GW.

Ukraine should definitely take the terrorist's offer though. Noone denies that bargaining with terrorists is bad, but this is not just about the fight against terrorism in Ukraine, this also is about the countless families wanting nothing but burying their beloved ones back home. Just agree to a truce, recover all corpses and possible traces, and then break it up and finish them off with some lead.

 Low_K wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
((SNIP))
The seperatists themselves claim they are collecting the bodies (because they are starting to stink quite a lot) and taking them to Donetsk. The problem is that the mortuaria in Donetsk don't have enough capacity for all the bodies.
Curiously enough, the seperatists also claim to be very concerned over the absence so far of international experts (the only people so far to show up have been Western journalists and the OVSE, which is not trusted by the seperatists).
I don't know the truth about all this, so I guess I will just leave the RT article here so you can judge for yourself: http://rt.com/news/174200-international-experts-crash-site/

I noticed you being very pro-Russian, zaelously defending them and being Russian, I take it you actually were born there? As you are 14 I think you are still under the influence of your parents, who most likely raised you with Mother Russia as priority, forgetting most likely the state the country is now in. If you state that Russia is the a country without faults (not having to mention WWII) in the world and Putin really is a great guy (not to mention his KGB past) I truly doubt that you have been able to form an own opinion. Don't get me wrong, it is absolutely normal to have thoughts and opinions which are the same as your parents on that age, and you will form an own opinion when you get older (or stay with the same although that is rare when you are open to other viewpoints).
I personally like many Russian things like I find the Russian National Anthem one of the (if not THE) greatest in the world, love the Russian Fail- and Car Crash movies on Youtube and even have a Rebel Grot army of Russian based miniatures, but I also see the wrongs they did and still do. It is just your pink coloured glasses (dangerous thing to wear in Russia btw, luckily not in Holland ), that really cloud your judgement of the politics of that same Russia you defend with everything you got. If you would've been be older, I would have thought you were the personal designated spokesperson of Putin himself Not to sound harsh or anything, it is just that your replies sweet-talking many actions of rebels and (especially) Russia kinda gets annoying as you don't seem to be open for other people's views. Any criticism of Russia you counter as you did in reply to SlaveToDorkness' new name for Russia in not a very constructive way. I am amazed at your English writing skills on your age though!

Da, I am Russian. From Sevastopol', Crimea no less, so my loyalty should indeed be quite evident
If you read back through the thread, you may notice however that I may be zealously defending the glorious Motherland , but not blindly so, as I have given criticism of Russia on a few occasions. I am pretty critical of Russian politics at several points (the whole gay-propaganda thing, which got a lot of attention in the Netherlands, to the amazement of many Russians, is one of those things), though most of them are not relevant to this thread. I am only a half Westernised Russian though (my mother is Dutch), so if you already think me to be a nationalist, you must not have met many full Russians. In general, Putin is about tied with Jesus and God for 'most worshipped deity' in Russia. For good reasons though. Putin has done more good things for Russia than almost any other leader in Russian history, and I have never seen a leader pursue the interests of his people as fiercely as he does. I think Dutch leaders could actually learn a lot from Putin at that point.
My can write good English because I lived in the UK for a while, as well as thanks to an absolutely awesome English teacher. My English speaking however... I sound like this guy
Thanks for the compliment btw


In any case, I may come across as not being very open to your opinions, but please keep in mind you come across in the same way to me. I've only been living in the Netherlands for 3 years, and I have already encountered a staggering amount of racism and discrimination towards Russians (In fact, last year with that outrage over Russia's 'anti-gay' laws, I was almost beaten by two guys up just for being Russian. The anti-Russian atmosphere was really quite frightening).
As for 'sweet-talking' Russia and the seperatists' actions, that may be, but they have good (imo) reasons for the way they act, reasons that are not always understood in the West, and I am merely trying to state and explain those reasons.
Also, I would not call SlaveToDorkness' remark a criticism. It was nothing more than a thoughtless insult, altough I know I should not have let him drag me down to his level. And a question, why do you call me out on my 'unconstructive remarks', but not SlaveToDorkness? It is very telling of the Western russophobia imo.

 Low_K wrote:
Back to topic; You are posting an article which is hardly independent (as are most news stations though) as a few reporters even quit not wanting to be Putin's personal propaganda trumpet. I can recall that the first group of OVSE people on the site were harassed and sent away by the rebels on-site. I don't know what the Dutch Foreign Minister is doing back in Holland, as he was dispatched to the Ukraine, only to return without any progress, and don't know who made him turn back or that he found the situation too dangerous. The stance of the Dutch is very weak, but we are a small country and cannot just invade Eastern Ukraine and start securing the site, killing all who oppose us (although some action should be taken a a long time ago).

The reason the experts aren't there yet is that the situation is very fragile. The seperatists on-site are probably some rogue band of criminals without any overall command whatsoever (as they didn't strike me as very organised) and are difficult to give commands by anyone. I guess the news that the rebels await the experts is that they got rid of any evidence and are now willing to release the site. It is known that the black boxes of the plane are in their hands too and I truly hope they give it to the experts. The main thing is closure for the relatives and people close to the victims, and that starts by returning the bodies for proper burial. The guilt question and getting the people who did it comes way after that.

I am aware RT is not independent, which is why I said you should judge for yourself what you think about the article and the reasons stated in there.
OVSE people are not international plane crash experts, they are not independent and they are not trusted by the seperatists. That is why they were harrased and send away. I actually thought the stance of the Dutch has been very reasonable so far. After all, people often seem to forget that the area is a full warzone and that the local people there have other things to worry about than researching some unfortunate plane crash (altough they are greatly upset over the death of so many innocents). It is all really unfortunate.
I wonder though what kind of evidence the seperatists would have had to dispose of? It is not like you can tell from the bodies or black boxes who fired that missile.
Personally, I hope there will be a cease-fire so that there will be time to properly care for the dead and set up an investigation.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Seriously, when is Russia going to change their name to "Lieingsacksofsh*tistan"?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
After the US has changed its name to Scheminghypocriticalmurderersia of course.

While this is a heated topic, what with the deaths of so many innocents and the ongoing conflict, lets not start swinging for the nationalities here.

Remember Rule Number 1, and have a good day

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them.

The separatists don't trust the (western) organisations and think they're biased. ..Have you thought about the irony of this - that the (western) organisations might well be upset, because nearly 300 of their citizens have been killed? And that refusing access to the site is the most potent indication of guilt one could ask for?

Have a look at rt.com and have a look at some western sites. On the Western sites, you'll find that many people criticise, or don't trust, their own government. You'll also see the other side's version of events described; you'll also see health warnings attached to, say, the Ukrainian version of events.

How trustworthy do you think russia today is? Have you seen it attempt to describe or even pass on what Western sources have reported?

What about other news sources in russia that describe opposition parties' views, like Fox in the US (anti-Obama) or the Guardian in the UK (anti-Cameron)? Does the presence, or absence, of such news sources support the credibility of russia today and its ilk, do you think?

... local people there have other things to worry about than researching some unfortunate plane crash (altough they are greatly upset over the death of so many innocents). It is all really unfortunate.

Wait, what? The plane was intentionally shot down. It's unfortunate that they were murdered?