Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!

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**loki old fart**

Gunning MH17 according done without U.S. help Russia
Flight MH17 was shot by separatists and is done without the help of Russia. That seems to make out details of U.S. intelligence, according to sources at the U.S. Government.

The sources in the U.S. government believe that the shooting down of the plane is an accident.

The U.S. does not know exactly who has been firing antiaircraft missile responsible. They do not suspect that Russia has something to do with it.

Tuesday was announced that the U.S. would release information on the cause of the disaster. But the services have no evidence'' technical'' released that the plane was hit by a so-called SA-11 missile, as was said earlier, that the missile was fired by pro-Russian separatists.
Russia would "have created conditions" for the shooting of the Boeing 777. Sources, however, said they did not know whether there were Russians present when the missile was launched. Or persons who have launched the rocket appropriately trained in Russia they did not say.

Supplying weaponry to the rebels by Russia still continues. According to the intelligence This involves, among other missiles and tanks.

google translate.

So maybe prison planet and alex jones maybe right

Seems the us gov is backtracking.

**A Town Called Malus**

loki old fart wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Except that Russia itself during World War 2 was basically a fascist state.

Veneration of the State: For the Motherland etc.
Devotion to a strong leader: Cult of Stalin
Ultranationalism and Militarism: Yup.
Political Violence, War, Imperialism as a means of rejuvenation: Check, check and check.

Not an insult to the millions of Russians who died on the Eastern front. They did a huge service to the world.

It's just a shame that Stalin was in power when it happened and that he took World War 2 as an opportunity to annex pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe.

It was a totalitarian state. Not a fascist state. And stalin was hated by some and feared by others. nobody was devoted to him, devoted to Russia maybe.

Guess I completely imagined learning about this during history then

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

loki old fart wrote:
So maybe prison planet and alex jones maybe right Seems the us gov is backtracking.

Oh wow again? Yet there are still people here who just gobble up their 'intelligence' no-questions asked

**loki old fart**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Except that Russia itself during World War 2 was basically a fascist state.

Veneration of the State: For the Motherland etc.
Devotion to a strong leader: Cult of Stalin
Ultranationalism and Militarism: Yup.
Political Violence, War, Imperialism as a means of rejuvenation: Check, check and check.

Not an insult to the millions of Russians who died on the Eastern front. They did a huge service to the world.

It's just a shame that Stalin was in power when it happened and that he took World War 2 as an opportunity to annex pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe.

It was a totalitarian state. Not a fascist state. And stalin was hated by some and feared by others. nobody was devoted to him, devoted to Russia maybe.

Guess I completely imagined learning about this during history then

Well considering he had most of the army top brass killed, and the propaganda merchants were in full swing. Who was there to speak against him.

**Iron_Captain**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Except that Russia itself during World War 2 was basically a fascist state.

Veneration of the State: For the Motherland etc.
Devotion to a strong leader: Cult of Stalin
Ultranationalism and Militarism: Yup.
Political Violence, War, Imperialism as a means of rejuvenation: Check, check and check.

Not an insult to the millions of Russians who died on the Eastern front. They did a huge service to the world.

It's just a shame that Stalin was in power when it happened and that he took World War 2 as an opportunity to annex pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe.

It was a totalitarian state. Not a fascist state. And stalin was hated by some and feared by others. nobody was devoted to him, devoted to Russia maybe.

Guess I completely imagined learning about this during history then

Hah, Stalin was definitely worshipped.
Many considered him to be some kind of god. When he finally died, the whole country was in shock, almost no one believed Stalin could actually die. During his funeral, many people were crushed to death, so did people rush to catch a glimpse of Stalin in his coffin. Stalin was feared, yes, but he was also greatly admired. His cult was so pervasive, it is still going strong even today.
Altough loki is also right to some degree, as Stalin was not so much worshipped as individual person, but more as a personification of the Soviet Union and Russian power.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Calling Russia fascist is probably about insulting and offensive to Russians as calling Israeli Jews Nazis...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

loki old fart wrote:
Gunning MH17 according done without U.S. help Russia
Flight MH17 was shot by separatists and is done without the help of Russia. That seems to make out details of U.S. intelligence, according to sources at the U.S. Government.

The sources in the U.S. government believe that the shooting down of the plane is an accident.

The U.S. does not know exactly who has been firing antiaircraft missile responsible. They do not suspect that Russia has something to do with it.

Tuesday was announced that the U.S. would release information on the cause of the disaster. But the services have no evidence'' technical'' released that the plane was hit by a so-called SA-11 missile, as was said earlier, that the missile was fired by pro-Russian separatists.
Russia would "have created conditions" for the shooting of the Boeing 777. Sources, however, said they did not know whether there were Russians present when the missile was launched. Or persons who have launched the rocket appropriately trained in Russia they did not say.

Supplying weaponry to the rebels by Russia still continues. According to the intelligence This involves, among other missiles and tanks.

google translate.

So maybe prison planet and alex jones maybe right Seems the us gov is backtracking.

Might as well repeat my previous statement as its still relevant.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Christ.

IF thats all true, and our western governments know the truth (that the Ukraine military was responsible for MH17) but are covering it up so they can pin the blame on Russia and further their own agendas...my god. Our government leaders deserve to be shot if this is true.

1984 never even came close to reality - George Orwell would be shocked if he were alive today.

~~Still, that video is from Info Wars, a well known nest of crackpots and lunatics (Alex Jones), so a bucket of salt is required. Are there any credible sources which confirm this?~~

This seems reminiscent of the Iraq War - Western governments (Britain, USA etc) relying on dodgy intelligence, misrepresenting that intelligence, outright lying, creating a bogeyman (Saddam / Putin) to manufacture a pretext for War or to justify their political agenda's (expansion of NATO and the EU).

**Jihadin**

Cold War Two. Rise of Putin. The Sequel

Edit

Two more fighter jets shot down

**Sigvatr**

Prime Minister Jazenjuk just declared his resign, new votes are going to be held.

Interesting move. Between fighting rebels in the east and the MH-17 incident, this makes one wonder...

Can't wait until the weekend, though, when the flight recorder data is fully deciphered. Potential for gak hitting the fan...rising.

**PhantomViper**

Sigvatr wrote:
Prime Minister Jazenjuk just declared his resign, new votes are going to be held.

Interesting move. Between fighting rebels in the east and the MH-17 incident, this makes one wonder...

Can't wait until the weekend, though, when the flight recorder data is fully deciphered. Potential for gak hitting the fan...rising.

He resigned because the coalition that had elected him dissolved so he didn't have the parliamentary majority that he needed to keep governing the country.

There is very little to support any conspiracy theories in this.

**Jihadin**

Whoa. Shepard Smith saying Pentagon confirming that Russian military units are hitting Ukrainian military targets.

**whembly**

Jihadin wrote:
Whoa. Shepard Smith saying Pentagon confirming that Russian military units are hitting Ukrainian military targets.

wut?

As in, units within Russia lobbing military strikes in Ukraine?

**Jihadin**

whembly wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Whoa. Shepard Smith saying Pentagon confirming that Russian military units are hitting Ukrainian military targets.

wut?

As in, units within Russia lobbing military strikes in Ukraine?

Artillery strikes. Seems to been happening for seven days now.

**loki old fart**

Jihadin wrote:
whembly wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Whoa. Shepard Smith saying Pentagon confirming that Russian military units are hitting Ukrainian military targets.

wut?

As in, units within Russia lobbing military strikes in Ukraine?

Artillery strikes. Seems to been happening for seven days now.

Anybody got a link.

The two fighter jets were downed near the village of Dmitrovka, in eastern Ukraine's Donetsk region, according to the Ukrainian Security Council.

“We [are looking] into the possibility of the missile, which downed the planes, having been launched from the territory of Russia. That’s one of the theories,” a spokesman for the council, Andrey Lysenko, said.

The theory is based on an assumption by the Ukrainian military that anti-Kiev forces in Donetsk and Lugansk do not possess the type of military equipment needed for shooting down the Su-25s.

“Missiles launched from manpads don’t reach such altitudes,” Lysenko said. “The planes have been shot down at the height of 5,200 meters. Only more powerful missile launchers are capable of doing that...[The planes] were downed professionally, the terrorists don’t have such experts.”

Meanwhile, self-defense forces in Ukraine have claimed they downed the jets. In fact, it was they who first broke the news.

“Near Saur-Mogila, a Ukrainian fighter jet was shot down,” the minister of defense of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Strelkov, said, as quoted by Novorossiya website. “The pilot ejected himself. One more plane could have been damaged.” So how did they shoot down a airliner,? If they don't have the experts?

**A Town Called Malus**

whembly wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Whoa. Shepard Smith saying Pentagon confirming that Russian military units are hitting Ukrainian military targets.

wut?

As in, units within Russia lobbing military strikes in Ukraine?

Ukrainian officials have also claimed that two of their fighters were shot down by missiles from within Russia.

Though that is claims from the Ukranians, so grain of salt.

**Ketara**

I cant find that on Reuters or BBC. Even on Fox News, they're not claiming Russia did it. Sauce?

**Jihadin**

loki old fart wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
whembly wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Whoa. Shepard Smith saying Pentagon confirming that Russian military units are hitting Ukrainian military targets.

wut?

As in, units within Russia lobbing military strikes in Ukraine?

Artillery strikes. Seems to been happening for seven days now.

Anybody got a link.

Happening real time. News just broke.

They cannot confirm if its actual russian units firing or Sep's firing.. No caliber of artillery being mention but figure 155mm. Dept of State though says they have "proof" its Russian. If so then they have a MilSat in play. More likely the Russian units are "Shooting and Scooting" after execution of a "fire mission"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
whembly wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Whoa. Shepard Smith saying Pentagon confirming that Russian military units are hitting Ukrainian military targets.

wut?

As in, units within Russia lobbing military strikes in Ukraine?

Artillery strikes. Seems to been happening for seven days now.

Anybody got a link.

Happening real time. News just broke.

They cannot confirm if its actual russian units firing or Sep's firing.. No caliber of artillery being mention but figure 155mm. Dept of State though says they have "proof" its Russian. If so then they have a MilSat in play. More likely the Russian units are "Shooting and Scooting" after execution of a "fire mission"

Edit

Shepard Smith time block on Fox News

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:
I cant find that on Reuters or BBC. Even on Fox News, they're not claiming Russia did it. Sauce?

SU25. Two of them Were in support of ground operations. ManPads got them. One pilot dead the other E&Eing

**A Town Called Malus**

Also, just found this:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/26fe789c-126e-11e4-a581-00144feabdc0.html#axzz38PogF4Nr

EDIT: Though now not letting me access it to copy the article :/

Basically, in an interview with Reuters one of the leaders of the separatist factions said that one of the groups had a BUK system and that it was most likely shipped back to Russia. He then went on Russian tv and said Reuters twisted his words. Reuters then released the audio recording of the interview and now the leader is saying its been doctored.

EDIT again: Got it. The link may not work but if you google "separatists own BUK" it should come up.

One of the leaders of the pro-Russian separatists admitted on Wednesday that a rebel group did have the anti-aircraft missiles that the US believes were used to shoot down Flight MH17 and suggested that the missiles have since been sent back to Russia.

In comments that came close to an admission of guilt, Alexander Khodakovsky also said that the Ukrainian government had “provoked” the crash because it flew fighter jets near to the missile system.

Asked about responsibility for the MH17 plane crash, he said: “The question is this: Ukraine received timely evidence that the volunteers have this technology.” He added: “It [Ukraine] not only did nothing to protect security, but provoked the use of this type of weapon against a plane that was flying with peaceful civilians.”

In an with Reuters, Mr Khodakovsky, who leads a group known as the Vostok Battalion, said that another section of pro-Russian rebels were in **possession last week of the Buk missile system. “I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence,” he was quoted as saying.

Mr Khodakovsky later said he had been misinterpreted and misquoted by Reuters. After the agency released audio of the interview which bore out its report, the rebel leader told Russian television the recording had been “doctored”.

Mr Khodakovsky’s comments come after Ukraine said two of its ground attack planes shot down on Wednesday in the east of the country not far from where Flight MH17 was downed may have been hit by missiles fired from within Russian territory. Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the Ukrainian National Security Council, said two Su-25s had crashed near Saur-Mogila after being shot down at a height of more than 5,000m.

“They were not downed by terrorists,” said Mr Lysenko, using the term the Kiev government uses for pro-Russian separatists. “According to our preliminary information it was done from across the border.”

Russia on Thursday denied the claim. The Interfax news agency quoted an unnamed defence ministry official as saying: “In an attempt to mislead the public, to distract attention from the Malaysian Boeing 777 catastrophe, the fantasies of Kiev’s authorities deserve inclusion in the Red Book of military aphorisms.”

The allegation that the two ground attack aircraft may have been brought down by Russian missiles is similar to those made by the Ukrainians about two other military planes it lost last week to anti-aircraft fire before the shooting down of MH17.

The Ukrainians alleged Russian forces were involved in shooting down a Ukrainian An-26 transport plane and another Su-25 last week before the Malaysian aircraft was downed over rebel-controlled territory.

In both cases Ukrainian officials said they did not believe the rebels had the technology to shoot down planes at the height at which they were flying. Russia denied any involvement.
The US and Ukraine have said Malaysia Arlines’ Flight MH17 was brought down last week with a Russian Buk anti-aircraft system, probably supplied by Russia, but Moscow has blamed Ukraine for the incident.

The renewed allegations on Wednesday of Russian involvement came after earlier confirmation by the Ukrainian military that it had lost two of its ground attack aircraft, know by the Nato code name Frogfoot, close to a hill named Savur Mogila, in rebel-held territory south of Snizhne. This is the same area where Ukraine and the US officials have said the missile was fired that shot down MH17.
The press centre for Ukraine’s so-called “antiterrorist operation” said pilots had both ejected after being hit by missiles from an anti-aircraft unit. It gave no information on what sort of missiles had been used.

Igor Strelkov, the rebel military commander, posted a video on his Russian social media page showing what he said were the remains of one of the two planes.
A Facebook page for Ukraine’s “antiterrorist operation” said the two planes were among four that had been providing close air support for the Ukrainian army.

One woman interviewed outside the village of Rassypnoye said she saw a Ukrainian pilot eject from one downed jet and parachute to the ground. The woman, who gave her name as Janna, said once the pilot had landed he ran off in an apparent attempt to evade capture by pro-Russian militants.

Savur Mogila, scene of Wednesday’s incidents, is a strategically important hill that was the scene of fierce fighting between Soviet and Nazi troops during the second world war. It is the site of a war memorial and has also witnessed clashes in recent weeks between Ukrainian army and separatist forces.

EDIT three: Found the original Reuters article:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723

**easysauce**

Ketara wrote:
Sauce?

i dont see any major outlets confirming this,

the only stories about shelling russia are the ones from when ukraine was shelling russia or from their APCS that crossed into russian territory a while back

dont mean its not happening though

**Ketara**

I tuned in. No sign of what you're talking about Jihadin.

**Jihadin**

They're awaiting clarification from the Pentagon. Back on now

Edit

Commercial break..Roslend Gold commercial

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Within the hour

**Sigvatr**

Read the same story this morning on welt.de. What's kept in mind is that the rebels aren't a state or any organized community, they are a bunch of armed civilians with alcohol and a blind love for oppressive governments. They are multiple sub-groups in their community and one member of one group talked a little too much.

**loki old fart**

Jihadin wrote:
They're awaiting clarification from the Pentagon. Back on now

Edit

Commercial break..Roslend Gold commercial

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Within the hour

Watched it on you tube. Some of the comments are worth reading.

Sigvatr wrote:
Read the same story this morning on welt.de. What's kept in mind is that the rebels aren't a state or any organized community, they are a bunch of armed civilians with alcohol and a blind love for oppressive governments. They are multiple sub-groups in their community and one member of one group talked a little too much.

Yeah we haven't got one but the other group might have one. Not much news really.

**Sigvatr**

I really, really hope that they do not have any confirmation. If they do have, then Russia is bombing another country without even a trace of justification - which breaks so many international treaties and laws.

And the fan will be hit with bloody dia...you get the image.

**loki old fart**

Sigvatr wrote:
I really, really hope that they do not have any confirmation. If they do have, then Russia is bombing another country without even a trace of justification - which breaks so many international treaties and laws.
And the fan will be hit with bloody dia...you get the image.

Ukraine fired or launched something that landed in Russia last week and killed someone. Maybe this is payback. I hope it's nothing more than that. The Russians said "There would be a price to pay".

**easysauce**

Sigvatr wrote:
I really, really hope that they do not have any confirmation. If they do have, then Russia is bombing another country without even a trace of justification - which breaks so many international treaties and laws.

And the fan will be hit with bloody dia...you get the image.

funny thats not what you were saying a few weeks ago when it was russia being shelled and having APC's with a foreign military in its borders.

US intelligence is the same source that gave us the WMD's in Iraq too.

either way, you are correct in that the s has hit the F

Im calling it now, we've passed the frans ferdinand moment,

call off the dancing bears on unicycles party and send the clowns home.

**whembly**

Wait, wut?

Russia was being shelled? On purpose?

**Jihadin**

Piss Poor Fire Direction Control on Ukraine side probably. Though I really really hope the spokeswoman screwed the pooch royally

**easysauce**

Jihadin wrote:
Piss Poor Fire Direction Control on Ukraine side probably. Though I really really hope the spokeswoman screwed the pooch royally

yeah... exactly.

me too *crosses fingers*

**loki old fart**

I don't like the idea of dakka members been called up.

**Sigvatr**

easysauce wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
I really, really hope that they do not have any confirmation. If they do have, then Russia is bombing another country without even a trace of justification - which breaks so many international treaties and laws.

And the fan will be hit with bloody dia...you get the image.

funny thats not what you were saying a few weeks ago when it was russia being shelled and having APC's with a foreign military in its borders.

Huh? If I could press a button that would wipe out rebels at once, I would immediately press it without any hesitation. They are mere pawns on Putin's chess board and if they need to fall to weaken his iron grasp, then so it shall be. Not to mention that it's extremely likely that they killed almost 300 civilians. They are scum. I just call them "rebels" now because the flight recorder thingy was a good and fair move.

If Russia, however, should be involved and firing, that's a giant difference. It's a direct conceiled attack at another country without legitimation. They could talk themselves out of the military invasion of the Krim, but there's no way they can pull the same thing now. And I prefer Europe being at peace, despite Putin wishing the opposite.