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 Jihadin wrote:
Frazz and me awhile back on this goat rope of a thread predicted Putin will pocket Eastern Ukraine in six months....like 90 days left or something

Yep. Right on schedule.
In Soviet RUssia, Putin Bare Chests YOU!

Ukrainians are now saying they have captured Russian paratroopers.

Putin is finally getting caught out... he's lost his mojo.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Putin is finally getting caught out... he's lost his mojo.

Nah, he is just saying they got lost and crossed the border accidently while on patrol. That seems a pretty easy thing to do, considering the amount of times Ukrainian troops 'accidently' got lost and ended up on the Russian side of the border.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Putin is finally getting caught out... he's lost his mojo.

Nah, he is just saying they got lost and crossed the border accidently while on patrol. That seems a pretty easy thing to do, considering the amount of times Ukrainian troops 'accidently' got lost and ended up on the Russian side of the border.

And accidentally shell Russian villages?

Here is the BBCs page on it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28934213

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

No, we're supposed to condemn BOTH sides and coerce them by economic sanctions and diplomatic pressure to come to a negotiating table.

Not pour gasoline on the fire by encouraging the side we happen to like the most, to kill the side we like the least.

Who is the one with the fethed up morals here?

Anybody who condemns one side for acts of murder, whilst cheering on the other equally murderous side. Which appears to be 3/4 of the people posting in this thread.

1. No one ever had any fun or made any money by not choosing a side.
2. This isn't a case of "Everyone is a dick, so slap everyone's hand and call it even." Not by a long shot.

 kronk wrote:

1. No one ever had any fun or made any money by not choosing a side.

That's not true. the most money is to be made arming ALL sides.

After the initial judgement of the disaster, I started thinking about the facts. Some clips on YouTube got me thinking and the history of conspiracy theories is always great to delve into.

Here is something for you;

What makes you believe the Seperatists did actually shoot down MH17?

You have to ask yourself who benefits the most of the disaster. What if the Ukranians shot down the plane, backed by the US, blamed it on the Seperatists and Russia who got sanctions slapped in their face (which the US doesn't suffer from that much). Think about it; What evidence is there?

- An intercepted conversation between alleged Seperatists- wire-tapped by the Ukrainian Secret Service. This could be easily doctored.
- The US claiming to have sattelite images of the attack; They haven't released the images yet. Why?
- Someone conveniently recorded a missile launcher being transported, missing one missile towards the Russian border. Who says it drove to the Russian border? Maybe it was an Ukrainian missile launcher videotaped by an Ukrainian official. It's not like there were signs on the video of "Entering Russia".
- If the disaster crews/OVSE were denied access as it being too dangerous, why could there be journalists from day one and even relatives at a later date of one of the victims walk freely around the site?
- The famous picture of the Seperatist holding the stuffed animal as trophy shocked the world. It is after you see the whole footage you see it in perspective. This is what the media can do to cloud judgement. That picture is a prime example. Deliberate posting?
- What do the Seperatists gain from denying they shot the plane down? If they would have said; "it was a mistake, we thought it was a military plane" would the world not be more forgiving towards them? Denying the allegations doesn't help their cause and damages the little trust the world has in the Seperatists and Russia
.
Let's face it, all the evidence points to Russia, yet, all the evidence is supplied by the US (who don't have a trustworthy reputation and I am sure you can remember the WMD's in Iraq, which the whole world believed at the time) and the Ukraine. The US suffers the least from sanctions against Russia, Russia suffers the most as well as Europe (although not as much as Russia).

So what could be the reason the US and Ukraine would go through such a length to frame Russia? Is Israel maybe involved? Was it not Israel who invaded the Gaza Strip the same day the plane was shot down, making that news disappearing into the background?

Were the pharmaceutical companies involved? There were many AIDS researchers on the plane, one of which would unveil a breakthrough on the convention. Maybe a cure? If it was so, the pharmaceutical companies would lose a lot of money from supplying the medication patients now need.

I think we will never know who did it.

I am not a supporter or hater of Russia nor a supporter or hater of the US. The whole situation is strange to say the least. The media pictures an image the majority believes. Many countries follow the US in their intelligence. "The CIA says the Russians did it, so it must be the truth!"

If people can supply counter-arguments of the evidence posted in this post, please do.

And yes, I am a nut for conspiracy theories.

 Low_K wrote:
After the initial judgement of the disaster, I started thinking about the facts. Some clips on YouTube got me thinking and the history of conspiracy theories is always great to delve into.

Here is something for you;

What makes you believe the Seperatists did actually shoot down MH17?

You have to ask yourself who benefits the most of the disaster. What if the Ukranians shot down the plane, backed by the US, blamed it on the Seperatists and Russia who got sanctions slapped in their face (which the US doesn't suffer from that much). Think about it; What evidence is there?

- An intercepted conversation between alleged Seperatists- wire-tapped by the Ukrainian Secret Service. This could be easily doctored.
- The US claiming to have sattelite images of the attack; They haven't released the images yet. Why?
- Someone conveniently recorded a missile launcher being transported, missing one missile towards the Russian border. Who says it drove to the Russian border? Maybe it was an Ukrainian missile launcher videotaped by an Ukrainian official. It's not like there were signs on the video of "Entering Russia".
- If the disaster crews/OVSE were denied access as it being too dangerous, why could there be journalists from day one and even relatives at a later date of one of the victims walk freely around the site?
- The famous picture of the Seperatist holding the stuffed animal as trophy shocked the world. It is after you see the whole footage you see it in perspective. This is what the media can do to cloud judgement. That picture is a prime example. Deliberate posting?
- What do the Seperatists gain from denying they shot the plane down? If they would have said; "it was a mistake, we thought it was a military plane" would the world not be more forgiving towards them? Denying the allegations doesn't help their cause and damages the little trust the world has in the Seperatists and Russia
.
Let's face it, all the evidence points to Russia, yet, all the evidence is supplied by the US (who don't have a trustworthy reputation and I am sure you can remember the WMD's in Iraq, which the whole world believed at the time) and the Ukraine. The US suffers the least from sanctions against Russia, Russia suffers the most as well as Europe (although not as much as Russia).

So what could be the reason the US and Ukraine would go through such a length to frame Russia? Is Israel maybe involved? Was it not Israel who invaded the Gaza Strip the same day the plane was shot down, making that news disappearing into the background?

Were the pharmaceutical companies involved? There were many AIDS researchers on the plane, one of which would unveil a breakthrough on the convention. Maybe a cure? If it was so, the pharmaceutical companies would lose a lot of money from supplying the medication patients now need.

I think we will never know who did it.

I am not a supporter or hater of Russia nor a supporter or hater of the US. The whole situation is strange to say the least. The media pictures an image the majority believes. Many countries follow the US in their intelligence. "The CIA says the Russians did it, so it must be the truth!"

If people can supply counter-arguments of the evidence posted in this post, please do.

And yes, I am a nut for conspiracy theories.

Whoa... that's too nutty even for me.

 Low_K wrote:
After the initial judgement of the disaster, I started thinking about the facts. Some clips on YouTube got me thinking and the history of conspiracy theories is always great to delve into...

You lost the plot when you started talking about Israel and pharmaceutical companies.

As for the US faking evidence and pinning the blame on the Separatists... I think thats unlikely. Occam's Razor indicates that it was a team of poorly trained incompetent Seperatists who shot MH170 down using an AA missile system stolen from the Ukrainian military, or perhaps supplied by Russia (which is not yet proven beyond reasonable doubt).

Though, gak like the Dodgy Dossier and all their lies over mass surveillance, extra-ordinary rendition, use of torture etc means that we can never truly trust our own Governments.

Do I think Western Governments are capable and willing to fake or distort evidence and pin the blame for certain events on their Enemy du Jour to further their agenda's? Definitely. Its happened before, in Iraq for instance, and will happen again.

But not in this case.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Low_K wrote:
After the initial judgement of the disaster, I started thinking about the facts. Some clips on YouTube got me thinking and the history of conspiracy theories is always great to delve into...

You lost the plot when you started talking about Israel and pharmaceutical companies.

As for the US faking evidence and pinning the blame on the Separatists... I think thats unlikely. Occam's Razor indicates that it was a team of poorly trained incompetent Seperatists who shot MH170 down using an AA missile system stolen from the Ukrainian military, or perhaps supplied by Russia (which is not yet proven beyond reasonable doubt).

Though, gak like the Dodgy Dossier and all their lies over mass surveillance, extra-ordinary rendition, use of torture etc means that we can never truly trust our own Governments.

Do I think Western Governments are capable and willing to fake or distort evidence and pin the blame for certain events on their Enemy du Jour to further their agenda's? Definitely. Its happened before, in Iraq for instance, and will happen again.

But not in this case.

What makes you so sure in this case? You state that Governments lie in order to fulfill their own agenda's, and I agree fully, so what makes you so sure US/Ukrainian Governments don't lie about this disaster?

And yes, Israel and the pharmaceutical companies is a far stretch, but regarding the latter; Those companies earn a hell of a lot money on diseases without a cure. Companies can go very far ensuring they keep their hefty profits

Occam's Razor. Look it up.

 Low_K wrote:

If people can supply counter-arguments of the evidence posted in this post, please do.

The separatists posted on Twitter that they'd shot down a Ukranian military aircraft, taunting Ukraine about it. That post dissapeared rather quickly once people started realizing that a passenger aircraft'd been hit.

 Low_K wrote:

- An intercepted conversation between alleged Seperatists- wire-tapped by the Ukrainian Secret Service. This could be easily doctored.

True. Supporting evidence at best.

 Low_K wrote:

- The US claiming to have sattelite images of the attack; They haven't released the images yet. Why?

Because it's not in the US's interest to reveal images presumably taken from their spy satellites to Russia? Seeing as these are the satellites that are supposed to monitor ICBM launches, it makes no sense to reveal them. It obviously makes the evidence rather flimsy though.

 Low_K wrote:

- Someone conveniently recorded a missile launcher being transported, missing one missile towards the Russian border. Who says it drove to the Russian border? Maybe it was an Ukrainian missile launcher videotaped by an Ukrainian official. It's not like there were signs on the video of "Entering Russia".

Are you suggesting that the Ukranian army staged an escaping missile launcher in rebel-controlled territory during the middle of a civil war? I'm assuming you see how silly that seems?

 Low_K wrote:

- If the disaster crews/OVSE were denied access as it being too dangerous, why could there be journalists from day one and even relatives at a later date of one of the victims walk freely around the site?

Because neither the journalists nor the relatives are there in an official capacity. If some grieving relative gets hit by a stray mortar round it's tragic, if a recovery worker gets hit someone's responsible for having sent them there in the first place.

 Low_K wrote:
- The famous picture of the Seperatist holding the stuffed animal as trophy shocked the world. It is after you see the whole footage you see it in perspective. This is what the media can do to cloud judgement. That picture is a prime example. Deliberate posting?

You're speculating, and what's worse you're speculating that media's trying to cloud judgment and then go on to draw conclusions without backing them up in the very same train of thought.

 Low_K wrote:

- What do the Seperatists gain from denying they shot the plane down? If they would have said; "it was a mistake, we thought it was a military plane" would the world not be more forgiving towards them? Denying the allegations doesn't help their cause and damages the little trust the world has in the Seperatists and Russia

They don't gain anything, but you're assuming whoever shot it down knew what they were shooting at and still shot.

You're doing a whole bunch of assumptions that, while theoretically possible, doesn't actually have any sort of supporting evidence other than speculation behind it.

EDIT: When both Shadow Captain and myself agree with eachother on something in this thread, odds are it's pretty reasonable.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The separatists posted on Twitter that they'd shot down a Ukranian military aircraft, taunting Ukraine about it. That post dissapeared rather quickly once people started realizing that a passenger aircraft'd been hit.

Twitter is easily hacked, especially by a powerful organisation as the CIA

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


True. Supporting evidence at best.

Agreed

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Because it's not in the US's interest to reveal images presumably taken from their spy satellites to Russia? Seeing as these are the satellites that are supposed to monitor ICBM launches, it makes no sense to reveal them. It obviously makes the evidence rather flimsy though.

Aye it does.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Are you suggesting that the Ukranian army staged an escaping missile launcher in rebel-controlled territory during the middle of a civil war? I'm assuming you see how silly that seems?

What makes you think the footage is from Eastern Ukraine? All we can see is some village and a moving truck with a AA battery on top of it missing one missile. The footage could have been taken in a small village in Poland for all we know. There is no evidence the footage, which coveniently was released, is taken in the Eastern part of Ukraine. Give me proof that the footage is from the rebel controlled territory. Who gave you that information? Aye, the US and Ukrainian Governments. So it doesn't sound so silly methinks

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Because neither the journalists nor the relatives are there in an official capacity. If some grieving relative gets hit by a stray mortar round it's tragic, if a recovery worker gets hit someone's responsible for having sent them there in the first place.

Is a journalist any different than a recovery worker? A journalist is sent by his editor, the recovery worker by his/her supervisor. So I don't see that much difference between those two.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You're speculating, and what's worse you're speculating that media's trying to cloud judgment and then go on to draw conclusions without backing them up in the very same train of thought.

But the media forms our opinion. If you hear in the media that the Russians did it over and over again, you start to believe it as you "trust" the media to be independant. It is the same as Iron_Captain's views; As he is still young no doubt his opinion is formed by his parent(s), that's why is is so valiently defending Russia. Our opinions are formed by the media, unless you were there, you hear of the details frokm the media. And can the media be controlled? yes, as seen in Russia. Can it also be controlled in the "Free World"? Yes.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

They don't gain anything, but you're assuming whoever shot it down knew what they were shooting at and still shot.

Aye, that I am assuming. As I am assuming the conspiracy theory.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You're doing a whole bunch of assumptions that, while theoretically possible, doesn't actually have any sort of supporting evidence other than speculation behind it.

Which evidence does the so-called facts have? Those are given to you by the Government and media. Hardly a reliable source. So stating that the theories aren't supported by evidence is the same as stating the so-called facts aren't supported by evidsence as we weren't there. The facts as they are now are told by the media and Secret Services.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

EDIT: When both Shadow Captain and myself agree with eachother on something in this thread, odds are it's pretty reasonable.

Lol, glad to be of help in that department

 Low_K wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The separatists posted on Twitter that they'd shot down a Ukranian military aircraft, taunting Ukraine about it. That post dissapeared rather quickly once people started realizing that a passenger aircraft'd been hit.

Twitter is easily hacked, especially by a powerful organisation as the CIA

And yet the separatists have never once claimed it was hacked. Go figure.

It's like the people who believed the Moon Landings were faked. If there was any real evidence (that is not immediately refutable by scientists and experts) that the USA didn't land on the moon then why the hell was the USSR not shouting about it at the time?

If the Twitter was hacked, the separatists would've been screaming about it.

 Low_K wrote:

What makes you believe the Seperatists did actually shoot down MH17?

Because in a warzone, gak happens?

Or,. possibly the video of a BUK m2 (A weapon platform the Seperatists admitted having) hauling ass for the Russian boarder 2 hours after the shoot down with about half it's missiles expended? Usually you don't remove your AA assets in a situation where the other side as air superiority.

We do know for a fact that Russia has been supplying the separatists with armor, and several BUK M2s were unaccounted for after a Russian supplied armored column entered the Ukraine. We know it was Russian, as the T 64's were fitting Kontact 5 reactive armor, on their turrets, which means they are NOT Ukrainian and limits their origins.

The Ukraine uses the following T-64s: T-64BM "Bulat" (which uses Knozh reactive armor), T-64BV (which uses Kontact1), T-64B (which lacks reactive armor). (Remember that many of the most iconic Russian tanks were in fact designed and built at the Locomotive Works.)

 Low_K wrote:

- Someone conveniently recorded a missile launcher being transported, missing one missile towards the Russian border. Who says it drove to the Russian border? Maybe it was an Ukrainian missile launcher videotaped by an Ukrainian official. It's not like there were signs on the video of "Entering Russia".

When the area was later over run there was no sign of the launcher. Radar records show the missile fired from Rebel controlled areas. While a false flag is possible, it would take one hell of a team to smuggle in something like a BUK deep inside enemy held territory unnoticed, and fire it, then make it vanish again. US SF would struggle to pull it off, due to the size of the BUK and the the fact that it's not exactly subtle when fired. To be blunt, no one for about a kilometer could possibly have missed it and that would have drawn a lot of hostile attention.

 Low_K wrote:

- If the disaster crews/OVSE were denied access as it being too dangerous, why could there be journalists from day one and even relatives at a later date of one of the victims walk freely around the site?

Because of mines and the fact that the debris was scattered over a wide enough area that not all of it was inside the hot zone. You're talking about a debris field several km wide.

 Low_K wrote:

- The famous picture of the Seperatist holding the stuffed animal as trophy shocked the world. It is after you see the whole footage you see it in perspective. This is what the media can do to cloud judgement. That picture is a prime example. Deliberate posting?

Welcome to War.

 Low_K wrote:

- What do the Seperatists gain from denying they shot the plane down? If they would have said; "it was a mistake, we thought it was a military plane" would the world not be more forgiving towards them? Denying the allegations doesn't help their cause and damages the little trust the world has in the Seperatists and Russia

IFF makes this sort of claim ring hollow, regardless of truth. That and giving powerful toys to under-trained yahoos would make Russia/the Separatists look weak, suggesting they lacked sufficiently trained soldiers

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Occam's Razor. Look it up.

It is foolish to blindly trust on Occam's Razor, especially in complicated stuff like politics. The simplest theory is not always the truth. Occam's Razor should only be applied when there are two theories that are both just as likely and are both supported by an equal amount of evidence.
In this case, there is a multitude of theories, with the one saying the seperatists accidently shot down the plane having the most evidence. Of course, the evidence may be fabricated, but that is impossible for us to say, so I still consider it the most likely scenario. Still, it is suspicious the seperatists keep denying it so strongly. Surely the world would have shown more favour on them if they had admitted to making a mistake?
All in all, I think it is impossible for us to definitely say who did it. There is too much shady stuff going on, and it is hard to distinguish truth from well-made fabrications and propaganda. Even the people in Eastern Ukraine themselves barely know what is going on (except that they are being bombed of course).

 BaronIveagh wrote:


When the area was later over run there was no sign of the launcher. Radar records show the missile fired from Rebel controlled areas.

The US has said so, but no one has actually seen those radar records. And there are also radar records (from the Russians of course) that show Ukrainian fighter jets near MH17.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/118277640892186287482/wm/4/115153309158935597522/posts/17PAEkdMXZa



In the first video the launcher is being moved on a white commercial truck towards border.
Later videos show it on a military transporter, also heading towards border. They were in such a hurry they stopped to swap trucks.

In another video the same launcher was shown in position with Kiev military.
In yet another video it was still on the white truck driving through the Kiev controlled Ukraine at night.
That launcher has a better social life than some people I know.

Nice video of the good guys moving stuff to the front lines.



NOTE vehicles used.

It appears Putin is making his move. Poroshenko has gambled, and lost this round. Such a pity.

 Ketara wrote:
It appears Putin is making his move. Poroshenko has gambled, and lost this round. Such a pity.

Please elaborate. Has something new happened? Are more Russian troops turning up in Ukraine?

Check the news. Multiple reports of Russian units trying to open a supply corridor.

Its all going according to plan muahahahahah!

According to the Nato, there are "far more" than 1000 (!) Russian soldiers in Ukraine, fighting with the rebels.

How many European neo-Nazis are in the Ukraine fighting? I know there are at least some from Sweden (maybe 20?) as reported earlier this month in the Swedish press online.

 Khornholio wrote:
How many European neo-Nazis are in the Ukraine fighting? I know there are at least some from Sweden (maybe 20?) as reported earlier this month in the Swedish press online.

Good. More of them there means less of them here.

Sad, I wanted things to be better.

lliu wrote:
Sad, I wanted things to be better.

From the Russian perspective, they are.

So a Russian tanks are entering Ukraine? Probably just lost...

 d-usa wrote:
So a Russian tanks are entering Ukraine? Probably just lost...

It must be in their vodka for all of them to be that "lost".

Russia still denies the presence of its troops in the Ukraine.
The seperatists however have launched a major counter-offensive. They have captured a lot of territory in the past few days.
Meanwhile, the language in the Russian media is heating up considerably as they report success after success for the seperatists. Moste area between the Russian border and Donetsk is now again in seperatist hands.
While I have seen no evidence so far of Russian troops and armour directly active in Ukraine, this sudden reversal in fortunes for the seperatists does make me suspicous. We shall see how long this counter-offensive will remain succesful.

Here is some footage from fighting in the city of Ilovaysk, to the East of Donetsk that I managed to find with English subtitles:




Motorola is the nickname for Arsen Pavlov, one of the senior seperatist commanders of Donetsk. My cousin fights with him:

 Sigvatr wrote:
According to the Nato, there are "far more" than 1000 (!) Russian soldiers in Ukraine, fighting with the rebels.

Is that fighting with the rebels as in fighting against them... as in "stop fighting with your brother or i turn this car around!" or are they fighting WITH the rebels as in, they have joined up with the rebels?