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 Frazzled wrote:
Didn't he just say Kyrgistan wasn't a real country?

If I were them, I'd invade Russia. Beat Russia to the punch.

The downside of course is, even if you win you have to spell Kyrystan in cyrillac. No one has time for that.

You can't even spell the name right. That says enough about Kyrgyzstan's legitimacy as an independent country. I bet 99% of the world population can't even find it on a map.

Also, most hilarious peace plan so far:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Didn't he just say Kyrgistan wasn't a real country?

If I were them, I'd invade Russia. Beat Russia to the punch.

The downside of course is, even if you win you have to spell Kyrystan in cyrillac. No one has time for that.

You can't even spell the name right. That says enough about Kyrgyzstan's legitimacy as an independent country. I bet 99% of the world population can't even find it on a map.

Good point! I'd rejoin Russia just to avoid that name.
On the positive every time I hear it, I think of a whole nation of head chopping Kyrgans all with funky Goth outfits shouting "there can only be one!" and going at each other with hand and half swords.

US presence at Ramas Air Base in K-stan

For now...

See even you had to say K Stan. Lets admit it, their plan to secure their border by making their name unpronouncable is not the best idea ever.

Everyone basically calls it the "The 'Stans" when talking about the countries around Afghanistan

I knew a Priest named Stan. They called him Stan Da Man.

 Frazzled wrote:
I knew a Priest named Stan. They called him Stan Da Man.

Sooo going to leave that alone

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Didn't he just say Kyrgistan wasn't a real country?

If I were them, I'd invade Russia. Beat Russia to the punch.

The downside of course is, even if you win you have to spell Kyrystan in cyrillac. No one has time for that.

You can't even spell the name right. That says enough about Kyrgyzstan's legitimacy as an independent country. I bet 99% of the world population can't even find it on a map.

Also, most hilarious peace plan so far:

Should work for Americans too

 loki old fart wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Didn't he just say Kyrgistan wasn't a real country?

If I were them, I'd invade Russia. Beat Russia to the punch.

The downside of course is, even if you win you have to spell Kyrystan in cyrillac. No one has time for that.

You can't even spell the name right. That says enough about Kyrgyzstan's legitimacy as an independent country. I bet 99% of the world population can't even find it on a map.

Also, most hilarious peace plan so far:

Should work for Americans too

We're not completely out yet

 Iron_Captain wrote:

In any case, I posted this earlier in the thread, you can find much more like it on Youtube:

You got it wrong - I asked for any confirmed by trusted sorce instance, not special effects video, filmed in moscow studio.

elotar wrote:

You got it wrong - I asked for any confirmed by trusted sorce instance, not special effects video, filmed in moscow studio.

If you mean by AP or the Red Cross, the answer is No, not yet.


Surprisingly, Vladimir Antyufeyev has a pretty extensive rap sheet and clear ties to Putin overthrowing legitimate governments. He's been involved in Moldova, Latvia, Lithuania, Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia, Crimea, and now Donetsk.

His outstanding charges are aiding and abetting assassins (Moldova), treason (Latvia and Moldova), theft of public funds, abuse of power, and destruction of evidence (all three from the pro Russian government of Transnistria, the break away area of Moldova). He replaced local boy Denis Pushilin as 'Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of the People's Republic of Donetsk'', who had supposedly 'fled to Russia'. He's also replaced Igor Girkin, a former GRU Colonel, as commander of the Donetsk military. He too has 'fled to Russia', supposedly, according to former insurgents, because of an FSB purge of the leadership in August.

elotar wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

In any case, I posted this earlier in the thread, you can find much more like it on Youtube:

You got it wrong - I asked for any confirmed by trusted sorce instance, not special effects video, filmed in moscow studio.

That is indeed a nice studio they filmed it in... I believe it is the same studio in which the Americans filmed the moon landing and 9/11 attacks.

elotar wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

...in which case they're carrying out an aerial bombing campaign on their own cities and citizens...

How many instances of information about deliberate aerial attacks on civilian occupied buildings by ukraine forces, confirmed by any trusted source (not RT or DNR spokesmen), can you show me? It must be easy for "aerial bombing campaign".

I haven't seen any, but, maybe, I'm missing something.

Are you asking for instances in which the Ukrainian military have deliberately set out to kill civilians, or in which civilian deaths have been disproportionate to the militant deaths/objectives achieved? There's plenty of evidence to support the latter, if that's what what you meant.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
That is indeed a nice studio they filmed it in... I believe it is the same studio in which the Americans filmed the moon landing and 9/11 attacks.

And Putin filmed aggression against ethnic Russians in Georgia.

 -Shrike- wrote:

Are you asking for instances in which the Ukrainian military have deliberately set out to kill civilians, or in which civilian deaths have been disproportionate to the militant deaths/objectives achieved? There's plenty of evidence to support the latter, if that's what what you meant.

Sadly, in the instance of the separatists, there's a growing number of the former.

 -Shrike- wrote:

Are you asking for instances in which the Ukrainian military have deliberately set out to kill civilians, or in which civilian deaths have been disproportionate to the militant deaths/objectives achieved?

There are(was) "aerial bombing campaign on their own cities and citizens", so, as I understand, there must be hundreds of destroed civilian buildings with tens of thousand casualities (cities there is mostly soviet apartment blocks with hundreds of people in each).

But, somehow, all I see, is strange youtube/RT videos/stories of unknown origin and ban(funcionally) for international reporters/non profits to enter rebel controlled areas.

Strange rebels, really - they can show real face of terrible nazi-junta, but instead they hide it and show own atrocities.

elotar wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:

Are you asking for instances in which the Ukrainian military have deliberately set out to kill civilians, or in which civilian deaths have been disproportionate to the militant deaths/objectives achieved?

There are(was) "aerial bombing campaign on their own cities and citizens", so, as I understand, there must be hundreds of destroed civilian buildings with tens of thousand casualities (cities there is mostly soviet apartment blocks with hundreds of people in each).

One would have thought that, in a region in which movement from an urban to rural area is not restricted, civilians would quickly flee the conflict, thereby minimising casualties and making your assumption look rather silly. In fact, the evidence appears to support this, in that the last article I saw quoted the figure of around 260,000 displaced civilians.

 -Shrike- wrote:

One would have thought that, in a region in which movement from an urban to rural area is not restricted, civilians would quickly flee the conflict, thereby minimising casualties and making your assumption look rather silly. In fact, the evidence appears to support this, in that the last article I saw quoted the figure of around 260,000 displaced civilians.

There are ~mil. people in just Donezk alone and like 8 mil. in the whole region. 260k displaced is nothing.

I believe yeltsin once referred to chechens as Nazi's, perhaps this is the from the russian playbook?

Accuse the enemy of being Nazi's, It's as if Putin has essentially godwined the war

elotar wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:

Are you asking for instances in which the Ukrainian military have deliberately set out to kill civilians, or in which civilian deaths have been disproportionate to the militant deaths/objectives achieved?

There are(was) "aerial bombing campaign on their own cities and citizens", so, as I understand, there must be hundreds of destroed civilian buildings with tens of thousand casualities (cities there is mostly soviet apartment blocks with hundreds of people in each).

But, somehow, all I see, is strange youtube/RT videos/stories of unknown origin and ban(funcionally) for international reporters/non profits to enter rebel controlled areas.

Strange rebels, really - they can show real face of terrible nazi-junta, but instead they hide it and show own atrocities.

Tens of thousands of casualties? This is no WW2-style carpet bombing!
This conflict is much smaller and more low intensity, which means there are far less casualties than in WW2. That does not change the reality however that there are innocent people being killed.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Tens of thousands of casualties? This is no WW2-style carpet bombing!
This conflict is much smaller and more low intensity, which means there are far less casualties than in WW2. That does not change the reality however that there are innocent people being killed.

I might point out that fighting in an urban environment will always yield civilian casualties, even with the most careful use of artillery, missiles, and bombs. The US war in Iraq had some of the most stringent RoE in history and still yielded 100k civilian casualties.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

That does not change the reality however that there are innocent people being killed.

Innocent people are being killed at peace time too. It's tragic, but if the numbers are comparable (and they are for this region) it's looking like blatant manipulation (like "aerial bombing campain" obviously).

elotar wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

That does not change the reality however that there are innocent people being killed.

Innocent people are being killed at peace time too. It's tragic, but if the numbers are comparable (and they are for this region) it's looking like blatant manipulation (like "aerial bombing campain" obviously).

You have a weird view of the region if you think that hundreds of people get killed there in peace time as well. Aerial and artillery bombardments on Donetsk and Luhansk by the Ukrainian government have been proven and documented by plenty of video evidence made by the local population. If you think all that is filmed in studios in Moscow, you should take of that tinfoil hat and stop making a fool of yourself.
Check here if you want to see a non-Muscovite article on casualties: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/at-least-620-soldiers-killed-in-russias-war-against-ukraine-361615.html

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Tens of thousands of casualties? This is no WW2-style carpet bombing!
This conflict is much smaller and more low intensity, which means there are far less casualties than in WW2. That does not change the reality however that there are innocent people being killed.

I might point out that fighting in an urban environment will always yield civilian casualties, even with the most careful use of artillery, missiles, and bombs. The US war in Iraq had some of the most stringent RoE in history and still yielded 100k civilian casualties.

Than maybe you should fething stop dropping bombs on large concentrations of civilians. Only a horrible monster would order artillery or aircraft to fire on a densely populated city.

Apparently the Ukrainian president (IIRC) is discussing devolution for eastern regions. It's good to finally see Kiev willing to negotiate and come to a political compromise, but it's a shame it took months of conflict and thousands of deaths to get to that point.

Some sort of political devolution for the eastern regions similar to Scotland or Nothern Ireland should have been on the table months ago.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Than maybe you should fething stop dropping bombs on large concentrations of civilians. Only a horrible monster would order artillery or aircraft to fire on a densely populated city.

Maybe you don't know what "stringent RoE" means, but we don't drop bombs on large concentrations of civilians.


In addition, a large part (likely the biggest part) of the Iraqi civilian body count wasn't inflicted by US or coalition forces.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Apparently the Ukrainian president (IIRC) is discussing devolution for eastern regions. It's good to finally see Kiev willing to negotiate and come to a political compromise, but it's a shame it took months of conflict and thousands of deaths to get to that point.

Some sort of political devolution for the eastern regions similar to Scotland or Nothern Ireland should have been on the table months ago.

It's been on the table since the word go, and repeatedly rejected by the separatists. It took Moscow replacing almost the entire Donetsk government in August with it's own, hand picked, guys to get this far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Only a horrible monster would order artillery or aircraft to fire on a densely populated city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku%E2%80%93Rostov_highway_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_%281999%E2%80%932000%29

You were saying?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Apparently the Ukrainian president (IIRC) is discussing devolution for eastern regions. It's good to finally see Kiev willing to negotiate and come to a political compromise, but it's a shame it took months of conflict and thousands of deaths to get to that point.

Some sort of political devolution for the eastern regions similar to Scotland or Nothern Ireland should have been on the table months ago.

It's been on the table since the word go, and repeatedly rejected by the separatists. It took Moscow replacing almost the entire Donetsk government in August with it's own, hand picked, guys to get this far.

The rebels want to reform Ukraine into a federation, similar to countries like Germany, the United States and Russia. Poroshenko is prepared to grant Donetsk and Luhansk somewhat more autonomy, but still wants to keep Ukraine as a centralised state ruled from Kiev. That is why they are still disagreeing. I hope they will be able to find a good compromise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Only a horrible monster would order artillery or aircraft to fire on a densely populated city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku%E2%80%93Rostov_highway_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_%281999%E2%80%932000%29

You were saying?

Pfft, the US has been using Dolphins and Sea Lions for longer than Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Marine_Mammal_Program

We used them in Vietnam.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Pfft, the US has been using Dolphins and Sea Lions for longer than Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Marine_Mammal_Program

We used them in Vietnam.

Darn it. We must close the Dolphin Gap by arming our bears!

So, we have combat trained dolphins, but no giant mind-controlled squids yet? I’m terribly disappointed.

 Redcruisair wrote:
So, we have combat trained dolphins, but no giant mind-controlled squids yet? I’m terribly disappointed.

Mind-controlled squids are a soviet unit.

However, this does mean that the Allies had a naval base in Crimea which the russians captured...