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 Ketara wrote:

 WellSpokenMan wrote:
To be fair, invading the Ukraine isn't what's bringing the Russian economy down. The price of oil is. The Saudis are throwing Putin under the bus, which I find funny for some strange reason.
.

The British too. North Sea Oil ceases to be viable below a certain price, and we're approaching that price fast. The bigger companies have already started laying people off around Edinburgh.

Good thing Scotland didn't go independent after all, eh wot?

And America. Some fracking is now impractical, it's costing more to get the oil, than it sells for.

And Canada. Lot of oil in Alberta that's suddenly not worth as much.

Merry Christmas you crazy Ukrainians.

Ooh, I know that artist. He's very good.

Looks like all sides are gearing up for more fighting....

Ukraine Gearing Up for War: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-gearing-war-alongside-peace-talks-1482049
Freed Ukrainian Journalist says Separatists are Being Trained for an Offensive: http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-journalist-cheremskiy-separatists/26779805.html
How Russians are Sent to Fight in Ukraine: http://www.newsweek.com/how-russians-are-sent-fight-ukraine-296937

Looks like the rebels are preparing to start a new offensive:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30744825

Wait, wasn't there a ceasefire in place? Has that officially ended?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Wait, wasn't there a ceasefire in place? Has that officially ended?

Putin probably felt that his anti-LGBT law wasn't enough to distract the Russian population.

As far as Ive heard it has been violated constantly, article mentions it too.

Ya, it was called a "ceasefire in name only".

So I'm curious here, is there a legitimate reason to support the Russian-backed rebels? I've been looking over this for the past half year and relaying my thoughts to a Belorussian coworker who vehemently despises Putin and most of eastern Europe's politics. Thus far we've concluded that it might help everyone if they simply moved to Russia instead of trying to make a separate state.

Because as it stands, State forces lack the sophisticated weaponry that the Russian have given the rebels -- and it shows. Hopefully NATO/US support can even the odds a little bit.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30878406

I like how the rebels stopped the government offensive approaching the bridge by destroying the bridge. I'm guessing most of the far bank is in Government hands now then, though fighting remains intense, apparently.

 The Airman wrote:
So I'm curious here, is there a legitimate reason to support the Russian-backed rebels? I've been looking over this for the past half year and relaying my thoughts to a Belorussian coworker who vehemently despises Putin and most of eastern Europe's politics. Thus far we've concluded that it might help everyone if they simply moved to Russia instead of trying to make a separate state.

Because as it stands, State forces lack the sophisticated weaponry that the Russian have given the rebels -- and it shows. Hopefully NATO/US support can even the odds a little bit.

Well, legitimate is a bit iffy in this whole conflict, seeing as that the Ukrainian government is not legitimate either.
But there are many reasons a lot of people support the seperatists.
The seperatists can be roughly divided in two generalised groups: The locals and the foreign volunteers, who can be further divided in other groups.

First up there are the disgruntled locals, as they are the ones who started all this. It all goes back to the divide in Ukraine between the pro-West western Ukrainians and pro-Russian eastern Ukrainians. The Yanukovich government was dominated by Eastern-Ukrainians and moderately pro-Russian. People in the western Ukraine did not like that and started to protest after Yanukovich turned down an agreement with the EU. Receiving a lot of support from the West, they succeeded in overthrowing the government after protests turned violent. Among these protesters were radical nationalists and neo-nazis, who now got a lot of influence. The first act of this new regime was to repel a law that gave equal status to the Russian language. This did not sit well with the ethnic Russian minority or Russian speaking Ukrainians who already were unhappy with the regime change in Kiev. They felt this new regime, dominated by Western Ukrainians, was illegitimate (which it was according to the constitution) and hostile towards Eastern Ukrainians and Russians. So, inspired by the events in Crimea, they took to the streets to start demanding greater autonomy, and after the regime responded to the protests with violence, some of them took up arms in local militias.

Also part of this group are the defected Ukrainian soldiers. A large part of the Ukrainian army and navy was made up of Eastern Ukrainians and defected to the protester's side.

The third part of the 'local' group consists of ethnic Russians from Crimea. They share their reasons for fighting with the locals and many of the local militias who helped the Russians take over Crimea travelled to Eastern Ukraine hoping to repeat the same thing there.

The second group is made up of foreign volunteers, most of them from Russia. There are many reasons why they fight.
Many of them are Russian nationalists that want to see a 'Greater Russia' restored.
Another major group are the Cossacks, a warrior caste that traditionally guarded the borders of the Russian Empire. They fight in order to protect ethnic Russians in the Ukraine and to return the Ukraine, their ancestral homeland, to Russian control. For a large part they also fight because of their loyalty to Putin and the modern Russian state. The Cossacks have long been repressed under the Soviet regime, but Putin restored most of their ancient privileges and the Cossacks have been slowly recovering since then. For that, they are obviously very grateful to Putin.
Others are Soviets who would love to see a return of the Soviet Union.
Others see the events in Ukraine as a Western plot to destroy Russia and want to thwart it.
And others fight for religious reasons, seeing the events in Ukraine as a threat to Russian Orthodoxy.
Than there are the Kadyrovtsy, Chechen soldiers send by Ramzan Kadyrov to demonstrate his loyalty to Putin.
There are Belarusians, who fight because of their pro-Russian, anti-Western sentiments.
There are the Serbians, mostly veterans from the Yugoslav wars who fight out of hatred of the West and to repay Russia for its support of Serbia.
And last but not least there are volunteers from the West who oppose Western institutions like NATO, the EU or who hate the US and see the events in Ukraine as a US plot.

And of course there is also an 'unoffical group' of Russian military or ex-military sent by Russia. Many of them are part of the secret service and serve as military advisors and trainers.

The above is of course all rather simplified. If you really want to know why those people fight there and support the pro-Russian seperatists, you should ask them yourself.
But of the off chance you are unable to travel to lovely Donetsk yourself, there are plenty of interviews available on the internet:
http://time.com/95898/wolves-hundred-ukraine-russia-cossack/
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28951324
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/aleksandar-vasovic-serbian-ultra-nationalists-support-crimea-2014-3
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27447264

I feel sorry for those people who have been murdered, because they believed in freedom of expression.

 loki old fart wrote:
I feel sorry for those people who have been murdered, because they believed in freedom of expression.

Or were driven out of their homes and forced across into Ukrainian territory for the sin of not being 'Russian'. Amusingly, this has been going on in Crimea as well, though, as our favorite apologist will be quick to point out, they're willingly leaving. Their homes mysteriously burning while the authorities do nothing to stop it has nothing to do with it.

Mind you, though, everyone in Crimea is enjoying a long, cold, food deprived winter. Seems Russia is generous with guns, but not so open with food, fuel, and money. Apparently while international sanctions might not scare Putin, they put the fear of god into many non-state owned companies, who are refusing to do business there, meaning severe shortages of food and basics.

Iron avoids the obvious that Russia is in violation of the Geneva Conventions several different ways regarding their operations in the Ukraine. Crimea alone violated three treaties they themselves signed, and not just with the Ukraine. By taking it, they basically set fire to every nuclear disarmament treaty in Eastern Europe. That has the potential to be very bad, for those not keeping score.

Apparently things have really picked up: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30878406

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Apparently things have really picked up: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30878406

Points up several posts. Already posted this.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Apparently things have really picked up: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30878406

Points up several posts. Already posted this.

Ah yes, sorry.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
I feel sorry for those people who have been murdered, because they believed in freedom of expression.

Iron avoids the obvious that Russia is in violation of the Geneva Conventions several different ways regarding their operations in the Ukraine. Crimea alone violated three treaties they themselves signed, and not just with the Ukraine. By taking it, they basically set fire to every nuclear disarmament treaty in Eastern Europe. That has the potential to be very bad, for those not keeping score.

America the only country that cannot be prosecuted for war crimes. America who totally ignore international law whenever it suits them.
Regime change anyone ??

1 Syria 1949.
2 Iran 1953
3 Guatemala 1954
4 Tibet 1955–70s
5 Indonesia 1958
6 Cuba 1959
7 Iraq 1960–63
8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
9 Dominican Republic 1961
10 South Vietnam 1963
11 Brazil 1964
12 Ghana 1966
13 Chile 1970–73
14 Argentina 1976
15 Afghanistan 1979–89
16 Turkey 1980
17 Poland 1980–89
18 Nicaragua 1981–90
OH! and Libya, Egypt, Cuba, Ukraine ETC ETC

Hmn, odd seeing pictures of this war now that winter's hit the area. Of course it leaves us with images like this:



An interesting thread that I've been following which has been detailing the vehicles being used in the conflict. A lot of Cold War era Soviet gear that's been modernized to a degree. A lot of modern Russian armour as well (the Russians have definitely been field testing). Besides that though technicals and up armoured civilian vehicles have been appearing all over the place.

Also from that thread, which yes sources a pro-Ukrainian news site, a short list of some identifiers on the vehicles the pro-Russians have been using (though if you really care you can find a million sources showing the same markings elsewhere). Seems the Russians are throwing their border units into this war, presumably because the folks in Moscow give less of a crap if its Chechen or Georgian units dying than locals. Ah right, because they're units out in the sticks clearly that means that someone just happened to steal all their vehicles and that's how they turned up in Ukraine? ...Or more likely the guys operating in those areas have plenty of experience in fighting their neighbors.



Hmn, on that note though is there any indication of the number of pro-Ukrainian Chechen fighters (or similar areas that Russian's screwed over)? Its been noted that Europeans have been turning up on that side of things, but I think that those guys would be all for fighting the Russians. Though I'd suspect the Ukrainians would just be called a bunch of pro-European Jew loving Nazi Muslim Pedophiles by Russia Today in that event (...damn I bet that's already happened).

Something which also struck me there. Ukraine's still listed as having 569 Peacekeepers abroad. They've brought back a number of oversees troops, but its a wonder they're keeping to their peacekeeping commitments (unless the UN's fudging he details).

 loki old fart wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
I feel sorry for those people who have been murdered, because they believed in freedom of expression.

Iron avoids the obvious that Russia is in violation of the Geneva Conventions several different ways regarding their operations in the Ukraine. Crimea alone violated three treaties they themselves signed, and not just with the Ukraine. By taking it, they basically set fire to every nuclear disarmament treaty in Eastern Europe. That has the potential to be very bad, for those not keeping score.

America the only country that cannot be prosecuted for war crimes. America who totally ignore international law whenever it suits them.
Regime change anyone ??

1 Syria 1949.
2 Iran 1953
3 Guatemala 1954
4 Tibet 1955–70s
5 Indonesia 1958
6 Cuba 1959
7 Iraq 1960–63
8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
9 Dominican Republic 1961
10 South Vietnam 1963
11 Brazil 1964
12 Ghana 1966
13 Chile 1970–73
14 Argentina 1976
15 Afghanistan 1979–89
16 Turkey 1980
17 Poland 1980–89
18 Nicaragua 1981–90
OH! and Libya, Egypt, Cuba, Ukraine ETC ETC

Could you please stop doing that every time someone points out that Russia's being rather nasty? It's a rather transparent attempt at deflection. What Russia is doing is against treaties they themselves have signed, regardless of whether the US has been nasty at another point in time or not.

Agreed. When discussing a topic it's childish to come out with a comment based on the flag the poster has on his profile and say "America did bad stuff in the past" as if that invalidates all their future posts.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
I feel sorry for those people who have been murdered, because they believed in freedom of expression.

Iron avoids the obvious that Russia is in violation of the Geneva Conventions several different ways regarding their operations in the Ukraine. Crimea alone violated three treaties they themselves signed, and not just with the Ukraine. By taking it, they basically set fire to every nuclear disarmament treaty in Eastern Europe. That has the potential to be very bad, for those not keeping score.

America the only country that cannot be prosecuted for war crimes. America who totally ignore international law whenever it suits them.
Regime change anyone ??

1 Syria 1949.
2 Iran 1953
3 Guatemala 1954
4 Tibet 1955–70s
5 Indonesia 1958
6 Cuba 1959
7 Iraq 1960–63
8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
9 Dominican Republic 1961
10 South Vietnam 1963
11 Brazil 1964
12 Ghana 1966
13 Chile 1970–73
14 Argentina 1976
15 Afghanistan 1979–89
16 Turkey 1980
17 Poland 1980–89
18 Nicaragua 1981–90
OH! and Libya, Egypt, Cuba, Ukraine ETC ETC

Could you please stop doing that every time someone points out that Russia's being rather nasty? It's a rather transparent attempt at deflection. What Russia is doing is against treaties they themselves have signed, regardless of whether the US has been nasty at another point in time or not.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Agreed. When discussing a topic it's childish to come out with a comment based on the flag the poster has on his profile and say "America did bad stuff in the past" as if that invalidates all their future posts.

Maybe I,m so fed up with the hypocrisy, That glass houses, and pots calling kettles black wasn't enough.

 loki old fart wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
I feel sorry for those people who have been murdered, because they believed in freedom of expression.

Iron avoids the obvious that Russia is in violation of the Geneva Conventions several different ways regarding their operations in the Ukraine. Crimea alone violated three treaties they themselves signed, and not just with the Ukraine. By taking it, they basically set fire to every nuclear disarmament treaty in Eastern Europe. That has the potential to be very bad, for those not keeping score.

America the only country that cannot be prosecuted for war crimes. America who totally ignore international law whenever it suits them.
Regime change anyone ??

1 Syria 1949.
2 Iran 1953
3 Guatemala 1954
4 Tibet 1955–70s
5 Indonesia 1958
6 Cuba 1959
7 Iraq 1960–63
8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
9 Dominican Republic 1961
10 South Vietnam 1963
11 Brazil 1964
12 Ghana 1966
13 Chile 1970–73
14 Argentina 1976
15 Afghanistan 1979–89
16 Turkey 1980
17 Poland 1980–89
18 Nicaragua 1981–90
OH! and Libya, Egypt, Cuba, Ukraine ETC ETC

Poland was regime change? What are you, 14? Ever read a book. Look up "Cold War" and "Warsaw Pact" and "Lech Walesa"
Tibet regime change? When did Austin become the capital of China?

EDIT: in looking at all those countries one would think:
1. We jeaulously guard our Latin American sisters oh so hawt hawt
2. With such of a list of failures why on earth would anyone be afraid of us?

 loki old fart wrote:

Maybe I,m so fed up with the hypocrisy, That glass houses, and pots calling kettles black wasn't enough.

You're so fed up with the hypocrisy that you project it onto other people and then deflect any time someone tries to call Russia out on something? Because I'm pretty sure no one's argued that the US (or "the West" or whatever) is free of nastiness.

Edited to be less confrontational.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Hmn, odd seeing pictures of this war now that winter's hit the area. Of course it leaves us with images like this:

Spoiler:

Snow tanks are fun! Makes me sad there is no snow here

 Wyrmalla wrote:
An interesting thread that I've been following which has been detailing the vehicles being used in the conflict. A lot of Cold War era Soviet gear that's been modernized to a degree. A lot of modern Russian armour as well (the Russians have definitely been field testing). Besides that though technicals and up armoured civilian vehicles have been appearing all over the place.

Also from that thread, which yes sources a pro-Ukrainian news site, a short list of some identifiers on the vehicles the pro-Russians have been using (though if you really care you can find a million sources showing the same markings elsewhere). Seems the Russians are throwing their border units into this war, presumably because the folks in Moscow give less of a crap if its Chechen or Georgian units dying than locals. Ah right, because they're units out in the sticks clearly that means that someone just happened to steal all their vehicles and that's how they turned up in Ukraine? ...Or more likely the guys operating in those areas have plenty of experience in fighting their neighbors.

Spoiler:

Hmn, on that note though is there any indication of the number of pro-Ukrainian Chechen fighters (or similar areas that Russian's screwed over)? Its been noted that Europeans have been turning up on that side of things, but I think that those guys would be all for fighting the Russians.

Such a list does not prove anything. I highly doubt there are entire Russian army units fighting in the area, that would be ridiculous. The war would be entirely different if that had been the case, it would have been much more like Crimea, where the Russian army (and navy) actually was involved.
More likely those border units just happened to "lose" a bit of equipment that suddenly turned up in Ukraine. Apart from small units operating as instructors and operators of specialised equipment, I don't think there are many Russian soldiers in Ukraine. They would not have lost Kramatorsk if that had been the case.

There are probably plenty of Georgian volunteers fighting for Ukraine, but I don't think there are many Chechens. Chechnya has changed a lot since the wars there now that Kadyrov is in charge.
Almost all anti-Russian Chechens are radical islamists nowadays, and in their eyes Ukraine is just as bad as Russia, and a whole lot less interesting because there are no muslims. There once were secular Chechen rebels as well, but they have mostly been elimated since Kadyrov betrayed them. And since Kadyrov's love for Putin is so great, every Chechen fighting for Ukraine likely risks having his entire family murdered by the Kadyrovtsy. I do not know about the general Chechen population, but the current Chechen leadership is very pro-Russian. There are lots of Chechens fighting for the seperatists, so it seems modern Chechens are either pro-Russian, to afraid to do anything, or dead.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Though I'd suspect the Ukrainians would just be called a bunch of pro-European Jew loving Nazi Muslim Pedophiles by Russia Today in that event (...damn I bet that's already happened).

They are called liberast. The word liberast is made up of the words liberal (pro-Western) and pederast (which means both homosexual and pedophile), because in their eyes, all those things are the same. Another common insult is banderites, which means as much as fascists. And Jews are always behind it anyways, so expect that as well. No muslims though, that would upset Russia's large muslim population.

I think the line with the Russians over their equipment is that they happen to just leave it in areas controlled by the separatists, who then just happen to stroll of with it. But no, obviously there are Russian soldiers active in some capacity throughout the region and the rest of Ukraine, even if they've taken more of a backseat after the initial invasion. Given how crappy a shot those separatists tend to be in their videos (spray and pray) I'd suspect they weren't actual soldiers, but then again the real soldiers didn't even bother changing out of their issued uniforms so that much would be obvious. I doubt though that the Russians would be sending their newer gear into the area and just giving it to random guys. Rather why lose a shiny new tank because the guy driving it hasn't been trained when you can have one of your own guys ensure that doesn't happen. If you're being so flagrant about having troops in the area then I don't see the point in moving the vehicles in without their crews, or are the Russians find with just throwing money away by having some idiot ride about their fancy new equipment?

Eugh, but there's no point in arguing over that matter. Its like discussing whether the earth revolves around the sun.

At this stage in the war its hardly like the Russians really need to bother their arses anymore. They took what they wanted last year, this is them just insighting continued conflict to keep Ukraine out of the picture. Even better they can let Ukraine integrate itself with the EU and still have a buffer state to an extent by create some out what the separatists have taken (just do like they did with Chechnya). It is rather a joke though that they can manage to use the exact same tactics for seventy years and still get away with it, you'd think the UN would have came up with a way to counter such false flag operations by now (then again no, I'd expect that they wouldn't). By now I doubt the Ukrainians have any chance of reclaiming any of their territory, and well even if they do kick the separatists out of the border regions, the Russians have already dumped enough troops into Crimea that there's no way the Ukrainians have, or ever had the capacity to take that area. Heh, but the Russians can change their atlases all they like, I doubt the rest of the world will be officially recognizing the region as anything buy a part of Ukraine for a good while (which is going to start getting confusing unless the situation changes).

The results seem like one European economy's been blown away to hell and the Russian one's still stagnating. At least the Russian people can just eat all the propaganda their government's shoveling them right (hell go back to the famine days and they can start eating all those dissidents they hate so much)?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
I feel sorry for those people who have been murdered, because they believed in freedom of expression.

Or were driven out of their homes and forced across into Ukrainian territory for the sin of not being 'Russian'. Amusingly, this has been going on in Crimea as well, though, as our favorite apologist will be quick to point out, they're willingly leaving. Their homes mysteriously burning while the authorities do nothing to stop it has nothing to do with it.

Actually, I would say they are not leaving willingly. Anti-Russian people (or people perceived by the radicals as anti-Russian) are threatened and harassed until they flee to Ukraine in order to protect themselves. It is a sad thing.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Mind you, though, everyone in Crimea is enjoying a long, cold, food deprived winter. Seems Russia is generous with guns, but not so open with food, fuel, and money. Apparently while international sanctions might not scare Putin, they put the fear of god into many non-state owned companies, who are refusing to do business there, meaning severe shortages of food and basics.

Crimea is not food deprived, it produces more than enough grain and vegetables to feed itself. There are shortages in meat and many other consumer products that used to be produced in other parts of Ukraine though, but nothing that major, considering Ukraine as a whole is suffering from shortages in food, electricity and pretty much everything except weapons.
Crimea is still very dependent on the Ukrainian mainland of course, but if the Ukrainians are smart, they won't cut support lines to Crimea. If they ever want to see Crimea returned to Ukraine, they can't go about antagonising the population even further, plus it won't hurt the seperatists or Russian army. It could also encourage Russia to launch an offensive to open a land corridor to Crimea.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron avoids the obvious that Russia is in violation of the Geneva Conventions several different ways regarding their operations in the Ukraine. Crimea alone violated three treaties they themselves signed, and not just with the Ukraine. By taking it, they basically set fire to every nuclear disarmament treaty in Eastern Europe. That has the potential to be very bad, for those not keeping score.

Russia is a great power. Great powers only adhere to laws and treaties when it suits them. Other great powers such as the US or China are no different.
And nuclear disarmament treaties were already almost null and void ever since the US pulled out of some of the most important of them.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
By now I doubt the Ukrainians have any chance of reclaiming any of their territory, and well even if they do kick the separatists out of the border regions, the Russians have already dumped enough troops into Crimea that there's no way the Ukrainians have, or ever had the capacity to take that area.

Moral of the story: beware unintended consequences when overthrowing a government popular with half of the country and with a powerful foreign power backing it.

Honestly, I hope the entire thing blows up in Putin's face. The games that are being played are disgusting.