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PhantomViper wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Now Russia is buzzing around our airspace. Just more sabre rattling and provoking us to make himself look big.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31530840

They did the same thing to us a couple of months ago.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/10/31/uk-nato-portugal-russia-idUKKBN0IK1TD20141031

Well, at least that sort of justifies the unholy amount of money that we spend on the damn planes.

And it also makes for some pretty decent photo ops!

Spoiler:

Photoop then you realize those planes are...[u]OLD.[i][u]

Video from the cockpit of the Bear's POV:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

So what? Russia has done it almost non stop ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. And I'm sure we reciprocate on occasion. The headline "Russian bombers seen off the Cornwall coast" is just sensationalism. They're in international airspace, so they're doing nothing illegal.

Its saber rattling yes, but its nothing new.


I remember hearing news reports of this kind a decade ago, when relations with Russia were fantastic by comparison to today.

Nope, sorry. Russia stopped doing it in 1992 and only resumed the practice in 2007 and what we have now is a significant escalation of the number of sorties.

They are in international airspace, true, if they weren't then probably they would have been shot down, since sending armed aircraft into another country's airspace is, you know, an act of war.

The problem is that this sabre rattling doesn't accomplish anything, no one has any more respect for Russia's military might just because Putin sends his 50 year old relics on sight seeing tours to the oceans around the world but a possible misunderstanding or fuckup in one of these encounters between Russian bombers and western fighters and you'll have yet another escalation of tensions between Russia and the West...

All of it so that Putin can pretend that he is back in the Cold War...

PhantomViper wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

So what? Russia has done it almost non stop ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. And I'm sure we reciprocate on occasion. The headline "Russian bombers seen off the Cornwall coast" is just sensationalism. They're in international airspace, so they're doing nothing illegal.

Its saber rattling yes, but its nothing new.


I remember hearing news reports of this kind a decade ago, when relations with Russia were fantastic by comparison to today.

Nope, sorry. Russia stopped doing it in 1992 and only resumed the practice in 2007 and what we have now is a significant escalation of the number of sorties.

They are in international airspace, true, if they weren't then probably they would have been shot down, since sending armed aircraft into another country's airspace is, you know, an act of war.

The problem is that this sabre rattling doesn't accomplish anything, no one has any more respect for Russia's military might just because Putin sends his 50 year old relics on sight seeing tours to the oceans around the world but a possible misunderstanding or fuckup in one of these encounters between Russian bombers and western fighters and you'll have yet another escalation of tensions between Russia and the West...

All of it so that Putin can pretend that he is back in the Cold War...

As opposed to the West...who pretend that the Cold War never ended?


Anyway, my point is that all these headlines about "Russian bombers over British cities!" are just misleading sensationalism. They're nothing new, they predate the Ukraine crisis.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


As opposed to the West...who pretend that the Cold War never ended?

If you would be so kind as to substantiate your pro-Russian rhetoric with actual facts it would be greatly appreciated.

How did the west pretend that the cold war never ended, do pray tell? Was it when all of those trade agreements were signed between the EU and Russia?

Or was it when Western countries decided to supply arms to Russia?

PhantomViper wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Now Russia is buzzing around our airspace. Just more sabre rattling and provoking us to make himself look big.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31530840

They did the same thing to us a couple of months ago.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/10/31/uk-nato-portugal-russia-idUKKBN0IK1TD20141031

Well, at least that sort of justifies the unholy amount of money that we spend on the damn planes.

And it also makes for some pretty decent photo ops!

Spoiler:

Yes it does

Bah video ninja'd
The russions got more out of that fly by. We got to see the same old bomber. They got to view modern fighter, and usual weapons load out.
Plus reaction times.

It’s almost as if the pilot was sending a warning when he turned his jet around, neatly showcasing its payload to the intruder.

It kind of reminds me of when a predator bares it's fangs to ward off another rival predator. Very Interesting.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

So what? Russia has done it almost non stop ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. And I'm sure we reciprocate on occasion. The headline "Russian bombers seen off the Cornwall coast" is just sensationalism. They're in international airspace, so they're doing nothing illegal.

Its saber rattling yes, but its nothing new.


I remember hearing news reports of this kind a decade ago, when relations with Russia were fantastic by comparison to today.

Nope, sorry. Russia stopped doing it in 1992 and only resumed the practice in 2007 and what we have now is a significant escalation of the number of sorties.

They are in international airspace, true, if they weren't then probably they would have been shot down, since sending armed aircraft into another country's airspace is, you know, an act of war.

The problem is that this sabre rattling doesn't accomplish anything, no one has any more respect for Russia's military might just because Putin sends his 50 year old relics on sight seeing tours to the oceans around the world but a possible misunderstanding or fuckup in one of these encounters between Russian bombers and western fighters and you'll have yet another escalation of tensions between Russia and the West...

All of it so that Putin can pretend that he is back in the Cold War...

As opposed to the West...who pretend that the Cold War never ended?


Anyway, my point is that all these headlines about "Russian bombers over British cities!" are just misleading sensationalism. They're nothing new, they predate the Ukraine crisis.

Why do you hate yourself so much? I mean you in another thread you just said the UK was no better than ISIL. Thats patently idiotic on its face.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


As opposed to the West...who pretend that the Cold War never ended?

If you would be so kind as to substantiate your pro-Russian rhetoric with actual facts it would be greatly appreciated.

How did the west pretend that the cold war never ended, do pray tell? Was it when all of those trade agreements were signed between the EU and Russia?

Or was it when Western countries decided to supply arms to Russia?

After months of denying having a hand in the Ukrainian coupe, US President Barack Obama admitted playing power broker for the “transition.” This probably falls short of America’s actual involvement.

Washington was investing heavily in Ukraine long before the Maidan protests started in Kiev in 2013. According to Victoria Nuland, the State Department’s top diplomat for Europe, since 1991 America has poured $5 billion of taxpayers’ money into what she called assisting Ukrainians in building “democratic skills and institutions.”

Some of the money went into sponsoring various NGOs, political parties and media outlets. For instance, Hromadske.tv, an internet-based television channel created in summer 2013, received a grant of some $50,000 from the US embassy. The channel provided full-time coverage of the Maidan protests and gave a platform to various opposition figures.

Such funding is a well-known tool of the American government. Washington describes it as promoting a positive change and denies accusations that it gives money to get leverage to pursue its own goals in targeted countries. But in Ukraine US officials played a far more prominent role than simply funding local players.

Later in February, a leaked phone conversation, notable for Nuland’s unprintable expletive at her frustration with the EU, revealed the pair discussing who should lead the new Ukrainian government (Arseny Yatsenyuk, incidentally, the current PM) and who should not be in it (Vitaly Klitchko, currently mayor of Kiev).

 Frazzled wrote:

Spoiler:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

So what? Russia has done it almost non stop ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. And I'm sure we reciprocate on occasion. The headline "Russian bombers seen off the Cornwall coast" is just sensationalism. They're in international airspace, so they're doing nothing illegal.

Its saber rattling yes, but its nothing new.


I remember hearing news reports of this kind a decade ago, when relations with Russia were fantastic by comparison to today.

Nope, sorry. Russia stopped doing it in 1992 and only resumed the practice in 2007 and what we have now is a significant escalation of the number of sorties.

They are in international airspace, true, if they weren't then probably they would have been shot down, since sending armed aircraft into another country's airspace is, you know, an act of war.

The problem is that this sabre rattling doesn't accomplish anything, no one has any more respect for Russia's military might just because Putin sends his 50 year old relics on sight seeing tours to the oceans around the world but a possible misunderstanding or fuckup in one of these encounters between Russian bombers and western fighters and you'll have yet another escalation of tensions between Russia and the West...

All of it so that Putin can pretend that he is back in the Cold War...

As opposed to the West...who pretend that the Cold War never ended?


Anyway, my point is that all these headlines about "Russian bombers over British cities!" are just misleading sensationalism. They're nothing new, they predate the Ukraine crisis.

Why do you hate yourself so much? I mean you in another thread you just said the UK was no better than ISIL. Thats patently idiotic on its face.

Now you're just being impolite. But thats ok, I've learned children don't have manners any more.

If you think the West still thinks its the Cold War:
Where are the tanks at the Brandenberg Gate?
Why are you not drafted in Her Majesty's Army?
Why are you not practicing bomb shelter drills?

Like I said, if you want to argue about ISIS, do it in the ISIS thread.

I am. You haven't asnwered the question.

When were you released from the draft?
When did you last practice an air raid drill?
When did you last see tanks at the Brandenburg gate?

 Frazzled wrote:
I am. You haven't asnwered the question.

When were you released from the draft?
When did you last practice an air raid drill?
When did you last see tanks at the Brandenburg gate?

We expanded NATO eastwards right up to Russia's borders, in spite of assurances given to Russia at the fall of the Soviet Union.

And if Georgia and Ukraine had been in it they'd be whole countries.

 Frazzled wrote:
And if Georgia and Ukraine had been in it they'd be whole countries.

No. They would not have existed anymore. You know Russia will never and could never allow such a thing. And Russia is too powerful to be ignored.
Russia does not like being ignored. Russia likes to be feared and have a huge empty buffer zone around itself so that it can feel safe. If Russia does not feel safe it will do crazy stuff. You don't want someone with the power to destroy the entire world doing crazy stuff.
Trying to expand NATO to Georgia and especially Ukraine would equal a declaration of war from NATO to Russia. Putin already said in the past he would go to war if NATO tried to get into Ukraine.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


As opposed to the West...who pretend that the Cold War never ended?

If you would be so kind as to substantiate your pro-Russian rhetoric with actual facts it would be greatly appreciated.

How did the west pretend that the cold war never ended, do pray tell? Was it when all of those trade agreements were signed between the EU and Russia?

Or was it when Western countries decided to supply arms to Russia?

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_the_origins_of_russias_new_conflict_with_the_west330
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-west-united-states-past-future-conflict/380533/

Some in the West never believed the collapse of Communism made a difference – to them, post-Soviet Russia was just another incarnation of the West’s adversary, the Soviet Union. One of those sceptics was Anthony Lake, national security adviser in Bill Clinton’s first administration, who said that Boris Yeltsin's government was made up of people who were “basically communists who had changed their suits from red to blue”.

The Cold War never ended for many, both in the West and in Russia. Things did change of course, many people also wanted relations to be better and as seen from those trade agreements, they were improved. But the Cold War mentality never did dissapear. For that it is still too recent.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And if Georgia and Ukraine had been in it they'd be whole countries.

No. They would not have existed anymore. You know Russia will never and could never allow such a thing. And Russia is too powerful to be ignored. .

Incorrect. An attack on a NATO member would lead to nuke war. Thats policy and its pretty automatic.
Thats why there's never been a WWIII.

If Ukraine wants to join NATO why should Russia be allowed to stop them? They don't respect any of their neighbours sovereignty or being able to make their own decisions about their future. Putin and his ilk are paranoid control freaks that want all their neighbours under their thumb like in the good ol' days, the thugs and bullies of Europe.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And if Georgia and Ukraine had been in it they'd be whole countries.

No. They would not have existed anymore. You know Russia will never and could never allow such a thing. And Russia is too powerful to be ignored.
Russia does not like being ignored. Russia likes to be feared and have a huge empty buffer zone around itself so that it can feel safe. If Russia does not feel safe it will do crazy stuff. You don't want someone with the power to destroy the entire world doing crazy stuff.
Trying to expand NATO to Georgia and especially Ukraine would equal a declaration of war from NATO to Russia. Putin already said in the past he would go to war if NATO tried to get into Ukraine.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


As opposed to the West...who pretend that the Cold War never ended?

If you would be so kind as to substantiate your pro-Russian rhetoric with actual facts it would be greatly appreciated.

How did the west pretend that the cold war never ended, do pray tell? Was it when all of those trade agreements were signed between the EU and Russia?

Or was it when Western countries decided to supply arms to Russia?

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_the_origins_of_russias_new_conflict_with_the_west330
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-west-united-states-past-future-conflict/380533/

Some in the West never believed the collapse of Communism made a difference – to them, post-Soviet Russia was just another incarnation of the West’s adversary, the Soviet Union. One of those sceptics was Anthony Lake, national security adviser in Bill Clinton’s first administration, who said that Boris Yeltsin's government was made up of people who were “basically communists who had changed their suits from red to blue”.

The Cold War never ended for many, both in the West and in Russia. Things did change of course, many people also wanted relations to be better and as seen from those trade agreements, they were improved. But the Cold War mentality never did dissapear. For that it is still too recent.

Americas pretty much the same.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And if Georgia and Ukraine had been in it they'd be whole countries.

No. They would not have existed anymore. You know Russia will never and could never allow such a thing. And Russia is too powerful to be ignored. .

Incorrect. An attack on a NATO member would lead to nuke war. Thats policy and its pretty automatic.
Thats why there's never been a WWIII.

Exactly.
And guess who has the most nukes? That is why those countries would not have existed anymore.
In the past 50 years, human civilisation has come very, very close to (almost) total annihilation several times already. I fear this is only going to get worse. he Russians are mad enough to do extreme things when countered. They know they can't win, but they are too stubborn and proud to back down. Putin is the kind of person that would rather destroy everything than to ever admit defeat.
That is why appeasement is so important in this conflict. Escalation can not be afforded when states armed with nuclear weapons are involved.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
If Ukraine wants to join NATO why should Russia be allowed to stop them? They don't respect any of their neighbours sovereignty or being able to make their own decisions about their future. Putin and his ilk are paranoid control freaks that want all their neighbours under their thumb like in the good ol' days, the thugs and bullies of Europe.

Because of realpolitik. Russia is a great power. It does not need to respect anyone because it is strong. Russia has lots of (nuclear) weapons and that is why other nations can't do anything but try to isolate Russia (which is an impossible task with Russia) and draw up some more sanctions. When Russia bullies its neighbours, the West can bark but not bite. That is how power politics work. It is the same thing with the US bullying (and at times, bombing) lots of smaller countries into submission. Other countries bark about that, but they can't do anything because the US is too strong.

The solution is to screw Russia into the ground through economic sanctions. The Ruble has dropped a fair bit in value already.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The solution is to screw Russia into the ground through economic sanctions. The Ruble has dropped a fair bit in value already.

Russians are a fairly tough and resilient people, as has been proven over the course of many wars that make sanctions look like a pouty kid in the corner. I honestly think that trying to kick each other in the balls will go no where positive.

Ukraine is screwed, no one really cares about them with the exception of Russia.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
If Ukraine wants to join NATO why should Russia be allowed to stop them? They don't respect any of their neighbours sovereignty or being able to make their own decisions about their future. Putin and his ilk are paranoid control freaks that want all their neighbours under their thumb like in the good ol' days, the thugs and bullies of Europe.

Maybe you should say "If somebody in NATO headquarter want to drag in Ukraine in NATO for bullying RF"? Because the population is interested in NATO as well as in Euro-assotiation.
NATO was created to defend so called democratic and free states of Europe and North America from devilish communists, so called "Red threat". 1991 USSR and Warsaw Pact disappeared, but NATO still here. Why? I think it is simple. You say that Putin is freaky, devilish, paranoid, ill man who wants to create USSR 2.0 . Most of Russia's (and not only Russia's) population supports him, so we have more than 100 million of freaky, devilish, paranoid, ill people. We all have to do something with this crazy mob and here old-good NATO comes to help us!
As for the end of the Cold War, I think that Mr.McCain doesn't even knows that Soviet Union collapsed and now it's not communist Russia.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


We expanded NATO eastwards right up to Russia's borders, in spite of assurances given to Russia at the fall of the Soviet Union.

I didn't realise that we forced countries to join NATO. I think it says a lot for Russias status as a "great power" if all of those countries they used to support militarily wanted to join NATO after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Obviously these countries don't believe that Russia will support them and think NATO is the better option. That's hardly our fault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The solution is to screw Russia into the ground through economic sanctions. The Ruble has dropped a fair bit in value already.

Russians are a fairly tough and resilient people, as has been proven over the course of many wars that make sanctions look like a pouty kid in the corner. I honestly think that trying to kick each other in the balls will go no where positive.

But in those days they weren't accustomed to a western style of living. They didn't know that they couldn't afford luxury goods because of their weak economy, as they didn't have access to them. Russia can say what it wants about the "corrupt west", it's people still aren't willingly going to drive a Lada over a BMW, or use some Russian built knock-off rather than a genuine iPhone.

Perestroika killed the Soviet Union by allowing the people to see how the other half lived. Putin can't take that away, no matter how much he spins his propaganda in an attempt to.

Consumerism, it has some good uses.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Consumerism, it has some good uses.

Yup it has.
Europe's bankrupt.
UK is bankrupt.
USA has been bankrupt since 1971.
We've all been spending monopoly money.

BMW stands for bring more water, series 3 bmw fuel pumps, header tanks splitting, water pump bearings. I could go on, but I cant be bothered.
Lada plugs and points, distributor cap, and a cam belt. When the belt went didn't even bend a valve.

And most of the wests goodies, made in China.

 Frazzled wrote:
Incorrect. An attack on a NATO member would lead to nuke war. Thats policy and its pretty automatic.
Thats why there's never been a WWIII.

Not with Obama as President. Obama would do everything he could to stop retaliation. I doubt this administration would even honor our agreements with Taiwan were China ever to invade.

 Tyran wrote:
Ukraine is screwed, no one really cares about them with the exception of Russia.

Sadly, I have to agree here.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The solution is to screw Russia into the ground through economic sanctions. The Ruble has dropped a fair bit in value already.

Russians are a fairly tough and resilient people, as has been proven over the course of many wars that make sanctions look like a pouty kid in the corner. I honestly think that trying to kick each other in the balls will go no where positive.

But in those days they weren't accustomed to a western style of living. They didn't know that they couldn't afford luxury goods because of their weak economy, as they didn't have access to them. Russia can say what it wants about the "corrupt west", it's people still aren't willingly going to drive a Lada over a BMW, or use some Russian built knock-off rather than a genuine iPhone.

Perestroika killed the Soviet Union by allowing the people to see how the other half lived. Putin can't take that away, no matter how much he spins his propaganda in an attempt to.

Consumerism, it has some good uses.

Are you seriously pretending that in the Soviet Union, people didn't know anything about the West? No one believed the official propaganda. People knew living standards in the West were higher.
But you do not understand Russia very well. The 90's have shown that the Western way of doing things does not work in Russia. Because of adopting Western methods, in the past few decades, Russia has survived a complete societal collapse and absolute poverty. A few little sanctions are nothing compared to that. A little economical hardship will only increase nationalism.

In the past 50 years, human civilisation has come very, very close to (almost) total annihilation several times already. I fear this is only going to get worse. he Russians are mad enough to do extreme things when countered. They know they can't win, but they are too stubborn and proud to back down.

They've backed down before, else none of us would be here, and roaches would have taken their rightful place as masters of the planet.

 Frazzled wrote:

In the past 50 years, human civilisation has come very, very close to (almost) total annihilation several times already. I fear this is only going to get worse. he Russians are mad enough to do extreme things when countered. They know they can't win, but they are too stubborn and proud to back down.

They've backed down before, else none of us would be here, and roaches would have taken their rightful place as masters of the planet.

Sounds like the Fallout series. Humanoid Roach-people?