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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
TBH Putin immediately condemned the shooting. While he would certainly have motive, so would a bunch of other Russian politicians and politics-related people.

Actually the article said that the Kremlin says Putin has condemned it, he hasn't made a public statement to that effect in person. If someone shot dead one of the senior members of an opposition party in the UK you can be sure that David Cameron would be on the news saying it for himself.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
TBH Putin immediately condemned the shooting. While he would certainly have motive, so would a bunch of other Russian politicians and politics-related people.

Actually the article said that the Kremlin says Putin has condemned it, he hasn't made a public statement to that effect in person. If someone shot dead one of the senior members of an opposition party in the UK you can be sure that David Cameron would be on the news saying it for himself.

Swedish media is quoting Putin's press spokesman as delivering the condemnation, and I'm feeling pretty certain that Putin keeps him on a fairly tight leash on something like this.

That is not to say that it is impossible (or even unlikely) that Putin, or someone allied to him, is behind this.

Let's see how long it takes for Putin to point the finger at the west for trying to sow seeds of suspicion and destabilisation.

He's apparently already called it a "provocation", not clear on who'd be the provoking part though.

Im waiting for a "ukranina terrorist attack"

I had expected people here would blame Putin.
Putin had little reason to want Nemtsov dead. He was not an influential politician. His party only has a single seat in one of Russia's many regional parliaments. Having him killed would be much more risky than rewarding for Putin.

The West just seems to think Putin is behind everything, but blaming Putin for this is as stupid as blaming Ukraine for this would be. Please people, wake up. Not everything in Russia is about Putin, and Putin does not control everything in Russia, nor even all elements of the FSB, much less the military. Nemtsov was a man with many enemies.

It is ironic though he was killed right next to the Kremlin.
Also, the car probably used in the murder was from Ingushetia. That could be a hint. He would not be the first person killed for poking his nose too much in the Caucasus.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I had expected people here would blame Putin.

Maybe because outside Russia, Nemtsov is best known for opposing Putin over Crimea and the Ukraine.


And I hear Polonium 210 is great in tea.

Yes I had thought when Putin wanted someone killed his calling card was having the guy glow afterwards. Putin's just lost some serious credibility with all the other Bond Villains over how tame this all is. :(

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Yes I had thought when Putin wanted someone killed his calling card was having the guy glow afterwards. Putin's just lost some serious credibility with all the other Bond Villains over how tame this all is. :(

However it isn't the first critic that has died in a drive-by shooting.

And hey, if a drive-by is good enough for SPECTRE when they want to kill Bond and his wife then I imagine it's good enough for Putin.

Some years ago laws were passed in Russia that legalised the state to execute people abroad, anyone they describe as 'extreme' but that covers a wide span, it could be anyone judged to be a threat.

On the other hand their security services seem so corrupt with links to the Mafia or have people with their own agenda that these murders could be carried out by anyone. There are quite a few reports of journalists that have ended up dead, or dissidents and those that have left Russia and spoken out against the government, that have ended up dead. Among the more famous cases, who killed Georgi Markov? No one has been found. Who killed Litvinenko? Russia won't extradite witnesses. Who tried to kill Viktor Yushchenko and left him disfigured? Russia refuses to extradite suspects in these cases. If they're not state sponsored killings they still don't want them investigated.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Yes I had thought when Putin wanted someone killed his calling card was having the guy glow afterwards. :(

He's called Vladamir Putin
Some days he wants someone shot,
a deniable weapon, second to none,
the random man with gun!.

Lurking in some dark doorway,
Or slipping Polonium in your tea,
In the next room, or this very one
The random man with gun!.

Cash is required whenever he's hired,
It comes just before the kill.
No-one can catch him, no ICBM can match him
For his random lone wolf skill!


Putins dead opponents are rather starting to stack up....

April 2003 - Liberal politician Sergey Yushenkov assassinated near his Moscow home

July 2003 - Investigative journalist Yuri Shchekochikhin died after 16-day mysterious illness

July 2004 - Forbes magazine Russian editor Paul Klebnikov shot from moving car on Moscow street, died later in hospital

October 2006 - Investigative journalist Anna Politkovskaya shot dead outside her Moscow apartment

November 2006 - Former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko died nearly three weeks after drinking tea laced with polonium in London hotel

March 2013 -Boris Berezovsky, former Kremlin power broker turned Putin critic, found dead in his UK home

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I had expected people here would blame Putin.
Putin had little reason to want Nemtsov dead. He was not an influential politician. His party only has a single seat in one of Russia's many regional parliaments. Having him killed would be much more risky than rewarding for Putin.

The West just seems to think Putin is behind everything, but blaming Putin for this is as stupid as blaming Ukraine for this would be. Please people, wake up. Not everything in Russia is about Putin, and Putin does not control everything in Russia, nor even all elements of the FSB, much less the military. Nemtsov was a man with many enemies.

It is ironic though he was killed right next to the Kremlin.
Also, the car probably used in the murder was from Ingushetia. That could be a hint. He would not be the first person killed for poking his nose too much in the Caucasus.

Who do you think his potential enemies might be then, other than Putin? Who else might want him dead?

I'm genuinely curious, not sarky btw. I'm always interested to hear your Russian perspective. Keeps this thread from being an echo chamber.

It could easily have been one of Putin's political allies acting without Putin's knowlege, or some ultranationalist who hate anyone who oppose the Ukraine war involvement, it's just that Putin's enemies have a tendency to end up dead, with the murderer never being found.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I had expected people here would blame Putin.
Putin had little reason to want Nemtsov dead. He was not an influential politician. His party only has a single seat in one of Russia's many regional parliaments. Having him killed would be much more risky than rewarding for Putin.

The West just seems to think Putin is behind everything, but blaming Putin for this is as stupid as blaming Ukraine for this would be. Please people, wake up. Not everything in Russia is about Putin, and Putin does not control everything in Russia, nor even all elements of the FSB, much less the military. Nemtsov was a man with many enemies.

It is ironic though he was killed right next to the Kremlin.
Also, the car probably used in the murder was from Ingushetia. That could be a hint. He would not be the first person killed for poking his nose too much in the Caucasus.

Who do you think his potential enemies might be then, other than Putin? Who else might want him dead?

I'm genuinely curious, not sarky btw. I'm always interested to hear your Russian perspective. Keeps this thread from being an echo chamber.

He was a controversial politician, so he had many enemies.
I have absolutely no ideo who is behind this, but some suspects could be:
-The FSB. The secret services are probably unhappy about Nemtsov's nosing around in Ukraine and his anti-Putin and anti-silovik stance. They could have ordered the assassination, either with or without Putin's approval.
-Someone in the military. If the reports about him proving Russian military presence in Ukraine were to be correct, this would not sit well with the people in charge of the operation. Soon after the murder, all of Nemtsov's documents were seized as part of the investigation. Probably would tie in with the secret services mentioned above.
-Criminals. Like most Russian politicians, especially those from the 90s, Nemtsov almost certainly had dealings with the Mafia. He may have pissed off his 'businesspartners'.
-Local officials or businessmen. Nemtsov was active in investigating corruption. He could have uncovered something that someone really did not want uncovered. Many who investigate corruption have been killed in Russia.
-The government of Ingushetia. The car used by the murderers was from Ingushetia. Nemtsov may have been investigating human rights abuse in the Caucasus, thus making him a target. He would not be the first. Anna Politovskaya was also killed after nosing around in Chechnya too much (likely on orders of Kadyrov)
-Radical nationalists. Someone could have gotten so pissed at Nemtsov's pro-West, "anti-Russian" or anti-Putin activities, that he decided to put a stop to it.
-Nashi or other putinists. Nashi has attacked Nemtsov and others who oppose Putin before. Maybe someone decided to step it up a bit?
-Ukrainian seperatists. Again in connection with his investigation in Ukraine.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It could easily have been one of Putin's political allies acting without Putin's knowlege, or some ultranationalist who hate anyone who oppose the Ukraine war involvement, it's just that Putin's enemies have a tendency to end up dead, with the murderer never being found.

Exactly. Putin may be behind it or not, but either way the Russian government has little interest in finding the murderer.

'little interest in finding the murderer'? Really? Because if a prominent opposition MP was murdered in a drive by in the UK, it would almost certainly be in David Cameron's best interest to state that he would find those responsible and bring them to justice. Just as it should be a high priority for Mr.Putin and his party. Even if it's a whitewash directed by the man himself, at least he would be seen to be doing something. I'm holding fire on putting the blame on Mr.Putin, but it would not surprise me in the least if it was found to be a Mafia hit or a random killing and thus the culprits are never found.

For those who may not have seen it.



Everything will be done to punish those behind ‘vile’ murder of Nemtsov - Putin

Russian President Vladimir Putin has promised that everything will be done to punish those responsible for the organization and execution of the murder of opposition politician, Boris Nemtsov.

“Everything will be done for the organizers and executors of this vile and cynical murder to receive the punishment they deserve," the statement on the Russian President’s official website said.

Boris Nemtsov, a veteran opposition figure in Russia, was gunned down in a drive-by attack in central Moscow overnight Friday.

The murder, which happened just away from the Kremlin, triggered worldwide condemnation and calls to bring the killers to justice.

Previously, Putin expressed his condolences to Nemtsov’s mother and said that he shared her grief.

"Please, accept my deepest condolences on this irreparable loss. I sincerely share your grief,” a telegram by the President, posted on the Kremlin’s website, said.

Boris Nemtsov "left his mark in the history of Russia – in its political and public life. He occupied on important positions in the difficult transition period of our country. He stated his point of views in an honest and straight forward manner and always defended his stance,” Putin stressed.

Investigators are doing their best to solve the murder of the opposition politician, said Vladimir Markin, spokesman for the Investigative Committee. Previously, he said that the investigators are looking into five possible motives behind Nemtsov’s assassination.

According to Markin, the politician’s murder could have been a provocation to destabilize the political situation in Russia. It could have also been linked to the threats Nemtsov received over his stance on Charlie Hebdo shootings in Paris or the current war in Ukraine. The politician’s business activities and a possible assault related to his personal life are also being looked into.

Irina Khakamada, an opposition figure who was Nemtsov's ally in the SPS party (Union of Right Forces), called the murder a "provocation" aimed at destabilizing Russia.

"It is definitely not beneficial to Putin and it is aimed at destabilizing everything to tatters," she said.

Meanwhile in Ukraine. There are some interesting draft bills on discussion at Parliament:
#2080 from parliamentary faction of Poroshenko (president) http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?pf3511=53956

Public denial or justification of military aggression of RF... imprisonment for up to 3 years

#2225 from parliamentary faction of Yatsenyuk (prime minister) http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?pf3511=54167

...acts encroaching on the authority of Ukraine, public vilification, abuse of Ukraine, and / or cynical, disrespectful attitude and rejection of individual structural elements of the system of public administration (its relevant authorities) and the state in general... imprisonment for up to 3 years

Asadjud wrote:
Meanwhile in Ukraine. There are some interesting draft bills on discussion at Parliament:
#2080 from parliamentary faction of Poroshenko (president) http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?pf3511=53956

Public denial or justification of military aggression of RF... imprisonment for up to 3 years

#2225 from parliamentary faction of Yatsenyuk (prime minister) http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?pf3511=54167

...acts encroaching on the authority of Ukraine, public vilification, abuse of Ukraine, and / or cynical, disrespectful attitude and rejection of individual structural elements of the system of public administration (its relevant authorities) and the state in general... imprisonment for up to 3 years

I can hardly believe my eyes. Those are the kind of laws that belong in a fascist state, not Ukraine. Let us hope parliament is smart enough not to let them come into force.

Don't worry, the fact that it is clearly against Ukrainian interests to do something that silly proves that it's Russian provocateurs behind it.










Am I doing this right?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Don't worry, the fact that it is clearly against Ukrainian interests to do something that silly proves that it's Russian provocateurs behind it.










Am I doing this right?

yea about right.
But I must say it falls in with some other proclamations recently.

 Iron_Captain wrote:


It is ironic though he was killed right next to the Kremlin.

To me, this is the big thing. Either security around there has become far too lax, or, more likely, there was involvement by security services at some level. Whether or not Putin is directly involved (my guess would be "no" precisely because Putin would probably not want to create a Martyr from a relatively minor annoyance), this does not reflect well on him.

Asadjud wrote:
Meanwhile in Ukraine. There are some interesting draft bills on discussion at Parliament:
#2080 from parliamentary faction of Poroshenko (president) http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?pf3511=53956

Public denial or justification of military aggression of RF... imprisonment for up to 3 years

#2225 from parliamentary faction of Yatsenyuk (prime minister) http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?pf3511=54167

...acts encroaching on the authority of Ukraine, public vilification, abuse of Ukraine, and / or cynical, disrespectful attitude and rejection of individual structural elements of the system of public administration (its relevant authorities) and the state in general... imprisonment for up to 3 years

Sadly, that's not actually too bad. In the US the Sedition Acts that have been passed and later found unconstitutional have been far worse.

Nemtzov was murdered at night 28.02, mourning/protest march was morning 01.03, next day. There was many people in T-shirt, big banners with a nice print of Nemtsov etc. Someone needs to develop a design, print and distribute it in one day. Knowing how everything is done here - it is very quickly, amazing. I really respect such specialists.
The most prominent is photo of Ukrainian deputy with an inscription in the Ukrainian language:

Label means "Heroes do not die." This is the slogan from the Ukrainian Maidan.

Asadjud wrote:
Nemtzov was murdered at night 28.02, mourning/protest march was morning 01.03, next day. There was many people in T-shirt, big banners with a nice print of Nemtsov etc. Someone needs to develop a design, print and distribute it in one day. Knowing how everything is done here - it is very quickly, amazing. I really respect such specialists.
The most prominent is photo of Ukrainian deputy with an inscription in the Ukrainian language:

Spoiler:

Label means "Heroes do not die." This is the slogan from the Ukrainian Maidan.

Is that your way of saying , "they knew before hand" ?

I'm not a judge or prosecutor to say so, but it is strange in my opinion. Of course I can be mistaken.

Asadjud wrote:
Nemtzov was murdered at night 28.02, mourning/protest march was morning 01.03, next day. There was many people in T-shirt, big banners with a nice print of Nemtsov etc. Someone needs to develop a design, print and distribute it in one day. Knowing how everything is done here - it is very quickly, amazing. I really respect such specialists.
The most prominent is photo of Ukrainian deputy with an inscription in the Ukrainian language:

Spoiler:

Label means "Heroes do not die." This is the slogan from the Ukrainian Maidan.

He was murdered on the night of the 27th, not the 28th, more than 24 hours before the beginning of the march.

If you are so determined in spreading Russian propaganda, at least get your facts straight.

Also, the picture that you are showing is from Alexey Goncharenko, a Ukrainian MP, what's so strange about an Ukrainian MP having a shirt made with his own slogan in it?

Btw, what is the majority opinion of the Russian populace and Ukranian populace on this thing? It's hard to tell from news.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Btw, what is the majority opinion of the Russian populace and Ukranian populace on this thing? It's hard to tell from news.

American news
British news
Russian news
Ukrainian news
Just buy your salt by the bucketful.

PhantomViper wrote:

He was murdered on the night of the 27th, not the 28th, more than 24 hours before the beginning of the march.

If you are so determined in spreading Russian propaganda, at least get your facts straight.

Also, the picture that you are showing is from Alexey Goncharenko, a Ukrainian MP, what's so strange about an Ukrainian MP having a shirt made with his own slogan in it?

Ok, he was murdered at night from 27 to 28 at 23:40, does It greatly change what I said? Do you always call russian propaganda everything what does not coincide with your opinion?
I find it strange that all this was done in just one day.

2 KiloFiX Ukraine as always divided in half: some people (mostly in the west) blame Putin, also this is the point of view or Kiev propaganda, some people (mostly) in the east believe that this is a provocation against Putin. Just as always. About russians ask someone from Russia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Definitely european country

Asadjud wrote:

Ok, he was murdered at night from 27 to 28 at 23:40, does It greatly change what I said? Do you always call russian propaganda everything what does not coincide with your opinion?
I find it strange that all this was done in just one day.

Actually, yes.

Twenty people could have that set up, in one work day, if they already have the right contacts. Granted, that does not count the people at the tshirt printer and sign printshops, but since it's a basic photo and slogan, you're looking at 4 hours work to produce thousands of copies if it's a modern digital setup.

You just take the photo and slogan into Photoshop, and divide up the CMYK channels and you're ready to print. One guy could do the design work for the whole thing in about an hour with the right tools