Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2015/03/09 08:49:37
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Moscow (AFP) - President Vladimir Putin has revealed the moment he says he gave the secret order for Russia's annexation of Crimea and described how Russian troops were ready to fight to rescue Ukraine's deposed, pro-Moscow president.
In a trailer shown Sunday for an upcoming documentary on state-run Rossiya-1 television called "Homeward bound", Putin openly discusses Moscow's controversial grabbing of Crimea a year ago.
Putin recounts an all-night meeting with security services chiefs to discuss how to extricate deposed president Viktor Yanukovych, who had fled a pro-Western street revolt in the Ukrainian capital Kiev.
"We ended at about seven in the morning," Putin says. "When we were parting, I said to my colleagues: we must start working on returning Crimea to Russia."
Four days after that February 2014 meeting, unidentified soldiers took over the local parliament in Crimea and deputies hurriedly voted in a new government. The Ukrainian province was then formally annexed by Moscow on March 18, triggering international condemnation.
The military operation was initially kept secret and despite the increasingly obvious actions of unmarked Russian forces on the ground, Moscow insisted that only locals were involved in the upheaval. Later, the Kremlin conceded that it had been behind the power grab.
In the trailer for the documentary, Putin also claims that Russia's military was ready to fight its way into the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk to get Yanukovych, a heavily corrupted but loyal figure who favoured keeping Ukraine in Russia's sphere of influence.
"He would have been killed," Putin said. "We got ready to get him right out of Donetsk by land, by sea or by air," he said. "Heavy machineguns were mounted there to avoid talking too much."
Yanukovych later resurfaced in the southern Russian city of Rostov and has not been back to Ukraine.
More than 6,000 people have since been killed in fighting between Ukraine's government forces and heavily armed separatist militias based in Donetsk and backed -- according to Western governments -- by Russia, although Moscow denies this.
Rossiya-1 did not say when the full documentary would be aired.
2015/03/09 17:39:09
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/03/09 17:49:22
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
whembly wrote: So wait... it was the Chechen's who did the assassination?
Chechen assassinated Putin's critic?
O.o
wut?
They were arrested. Not yet charged
In Stalinist Russia, Suspects Charge YOU!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/03/09 21:32:30
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2015/03/09 21:50:11
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
We'll see what other facts come to light. The way in which this killing was carried out is not typical of Islamic extremists, who lie their involvement to be widely known - and typically self announced. In fact it seems closer in MO to Anna Politkovskaya's murder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya#Murder.2C_investigation_and_trial
Grey Templar wrote: What'cha think the chance of them committing suicide before the trial are?
Suicide or "suicide"?
Obviously "suicide"
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Nice video which reminds that civil war is most terrible war because it divides friends, families, coworkers etc. Every man, old and young, is involved in this sh*t everywhere: at work, at home, at feast, not just combatants.
It is absolutely clear that there can be no civil war without outer support of both sides, especially so close to main world powers. We can talk for a long time about geopolitics, stick to different views, but remember that all our judgments are based on information from the media to whom we trust, we see what they show us. And much of the information does not go beyond Russian and Ukrainian language resources.
Here for many people there was two type of wars: WW2 which we remember well, but it ended 70 years ago, and constant war in Africa and Arabia. Here people bought iPhones, drove shiny cars and even played plastic orks, but the change was strong. No one could ever imagine that such will happen here in the heart of Europe.
No matter how this war will end, hatred between eastern and western Ukraine will live on for generations.
True. Whatever the side you are on, this whole war is so sad. It makes me cry. Some friends I have known since kindergarten don't want to talk to me anymore because some of my family fights for the seperatists.
I still have trouble believing it, especially since I have not been to Ukraine anymore since the war started. If you had told me when I left in 2013 that everything would be torn apart by war within a year, I would have laughed. It all seems so unrealistic.
Ukraine will never be the same anymore, nor will Crimea.
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2015/03/10 19:49:21
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
It is a bitter, bloody struggle for sure. Worse thing is It still doesn't seem to be getting any better. I'm not even sure we've even reached rock bottom yet.
2015/03/11 08:47:10
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
It's always a concern when you have a high profile assassination in which the culprits are almost immediately caught and confess. It's just too convenient especially in respect of countries with Russia's record. It just looks like a whitewash. Even if they are guilty it undermines the case if you had to torture people as is being alleged.
2015/03/11 09:56:04
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
It's always a concern when you have a high profile assassination in which the culprits are almost immediately caught and confess. It's just too convenient especially in respect of countries with Russia's record. It just looks like a whitewash. Even if they are guilty it undermines the case if you had to torture people as is being alleged.
They probably did. Even assuming that he's clean, Putin is probably pushing the police HARD to find someone to blame NOW. If not, any patsy will do. Either way, the officers doing the actual investigating are probably wearing the brown pants. They're gonna try and save thier own assess by whatever means necessary..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 09:58:16
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2015/03/11 12:12:20
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
It's always a concern when you have a high profile assassination in which the culprits are almost immediately caught and confess. It's just too convenient especially in respect of countries with Russia's record. It just looks like a whitewash. Even if they are guilty it undermines the case if you had to torture people as is being alleged.
They probably did. Even assuming that he's clean, Putin is probably pushing the police HARD to find someone to blame NOW. If not, any patsy will do. Either way, the officers doing the actual investigating are probably wearing the brown pants. They're gonna try and save thier own assess by whatever means necessary..
You don't think he was under surveillance, as an opposition leader, and that's how the police caught all these people,
He was being photographed for months, and so was anybody around him
The photo, published by Russian tabloid newspaper Moskovsky Komsomolets (MK), shows two men, one of them allegedly the prime suspect Zaur Dadaev, sitting in a silver-colored ZAZ Chance. The car is one of the three police suspect the killers used on the day of Nemtsov’s murder, February 27. According to the tabloid, the photo was taken several days prior to the murder. The car is reported to have been bought in September 2014 from a woman in the Moscow Region. It was spotted near Nemtsov’s house in downtown Moscow a while later in the autumn, according to MK.
Nemtsov was reportedly being followed by the killers on the day of the shooting. According to police the killers changed between three cars during the day, LifeNews reported. Earlier Friday evening, Nemtsov gave an interview to Echo Moskvy radio and was followed from there to the murder scene.
The question that needs to be asked, with all this surveillance. Why nobody tried to save him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 12:18:47
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2015/03/11 12:17:16
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Why do you need to coerce confessions from people when you have all this forensic evidence they claim? It seems they're more interested in sweeping this away fast than they are in justice.
2015/03/11 12:18:06
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
It's always a concern when you have a high profile assassination in which the culprits are almost immediately caught and confess. It's just too convenient especially in respect of countries with Russia's record. It just looks like a whitewash. Even if they are guilty it undermines the case if you had to torture people as is being alleged.
They probably did. Even assuming that he's clean, Putin is probably pushing the police HARD to find someone to blame NOW. If not, any patsy will do. Either way, the officers doing the actual investigating are probably wearing the brown pants. They're gonna try and save thier own assess by whatever means necessary..
You don't think he was under surveillance, as an opposition leader, and that's how the police caught all these people,
He was being photographed for months, and so was anybody around him.
Of course that was what happened, that is also why the "cops" needed to torture the "suspects" to get a confession. Because that is just something that you do when you have photographic evidence of someone's involvement in a crime.
Andrei Babushkin, who visited Mr Dadayev on Tuesday, says he saw "numerous wounds" on his body, suggesting he had been tortured.
The suspect said he only confessed so a friend arrested with him would be freed, Mr Babushkin said.
So there is no way a criminal and assassin could have gotten wounded in any other way! He must have been tortured! Yet another great unbiased article from the BBC. Of course other countries would never torture their terrorism suspects to get confessions...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 14:34:44
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2015/03/11 14:52:07
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Iron_Captain wrote: So there is no way a criminal and assassin could have gotten wounded in any other way! He must have been tortured!
Yet another great unbiased article from the BBC.
Of course other countries would never torture their terrorism suspects to get confessions...
For the love of all that is cute and cuddly, will you stop it with the bleedin' Whataboutism already? We've only pointed out why it's a fallacy about 95 bajillion times already!
Further, isn't the Presidential Council for Civil Society and Human Rights an official Russian agency? The [ur=http://eng.state.kremlin.ru/council/18/newsl]Kremlin[/url] web page sure seems to suggest that to be the case. The BBC's interviewed a member of said council, said member stated that he believed there were wounds that suggested torture. How is that biased?
EDIT: Damnit, ninja'd by Dreadclaw.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/11 14:57:42
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2015/03/11 18:01:06
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Iron_Captain wrote: Of course other countries would never torture their terrorism suspects to get confessions...
#whataboutery
Still true.
But completely irrelevant to the question at hand. We're not discussing Guantanamo Bay, whether the US has tortured anyone or not has no bearing on whether Russia has or not.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2015/03/11 20:04:31
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Iron_Captain wrote: Of course other countries would never torture their terrorism suspects to get confessions...
#whataboutery
Still true.
But completely irrelevant to the question at hand. We're not discussing Guantanamo Bay, whether the US has tortured anyone or not has no bearing on whether Russia has or not.
Irrelevent to the question at hand? Maybe. I did not think it was irrelevant at all. In any case, there are hundreds of irrelevant comments in this thread, nothing requires you to respond to them.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Further, isn't the Presidential Council for Civil Society and Human Rights an official Russian agency? The Kremlin web page sure seems to suggest that to be the case. The BBC's interviewed a member of said council, said member stated that he believed there were wounds that suggested torture. How is that biased?
Yes, the Human Rights Council gives advice to the Russian president. That does not mean statements by individual members of that council have anything to do with the Russian government. It is just a random guy who works for the government and says the terrorist told him he had been tortured and also showed him injuries. He believes that could mean the terrorist has been tortured and calls on an independent party to investigate that. That is everything what happened. And what does the BBC report? NEMTSOV MURDER: DADAYEV CONFESSION FORCED! I call that biased. It should have been more like this: Nemtsov murder suspect may have been tortured. That is unbiased.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 20:05:59
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2015/03/11 20:19:54
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Iron_Captain wrote: Of course other countries would never torture their terrorism suspects to get confessions...
#whataboutery
Still true.
But completely irrelevant to the question at hand. We're not discussing Guantanamo Bay, whether the US has tortured anyone or not has no bearing on whether Russia has or not.
Irrelevent to the question at hand? Maybe. I did not think it was irrelevant at all. In any case, there are hundreds of irrelevant comments in this thread, nothing requires you to respond to them.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Further, isn't the Presidential Council for Civil Society and Human Rights an official Russian agency? The Kremlin web page sure seems to suggest that to be the case. The BBC's interviewed a member of said council, said member stated that he believed there were wounds that suggested torture. How is that biased?
Yes, the Human Rights Council gives advice to the Russian president. That does not mean statements by individual members of that council have anything to do with the Russian government. It is just a random guy who works for the government and says the terrorist told him he had been tortured and also showed him injuries. He believes that could mean the terrorist has been tortured and calls on an independent party to investigate that. That is everything what happened. And what does the BBC report? NEMTSOV MURDER: DADAYEV CONFESSION FORCED!
I call that biased. It should have been more like this: Nemtsov murder suspect may have been tortured. That is unbiased.
You'll note they said "forced", not forced. Quotation marks mean that someone is being quoted. Shocking how that works.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2015/03/15 20:32:24
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Well, Putin got to show off in an interview earlier, announcing that he had ordered Russia's nuclear weapons to combat readiness as part of their takeover of Crimea.
Yes, that's right, he was ready to start World War three over Crimea.
One must now ask the question, if the people of Crimea had opposed Putin's annexation of their country, if they would have been on the receiving end of those nukes.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2015/03/15 20:37:56
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Well, Putin got to show off in an interview earlier, announcing that he had ordered Russia's nuclear weapons to combat readiness as part of their takeover of Crimea.
Yes, that's right, he was ready to start World War three over Crimea.
One must now ask the question, if the people of Crimea had opposed Putin's annexation of their country, if they would have been on the receiving end of those nukes.
Not in a million years. Putin wants Crimea for its strategic location and ports. Nuking it would be pointless and make the area useless for what he wants out of it. Especially not when he can easily take it by force.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Not in a million years. Putin wants Crimea for its strategic location and ports. Nuking it would be pointless and make the area useless for what he wants out of it. Especially not when he can easily take it by force.
The US could have taken Japan by force too, but it was easier to force a surrender by nuking two cities. Heck, he could have launched a low yield and not even damaged more than a few square blocks and still forced a capitulation.
You don't order your nukes to stand by to launch without a reason.
And, bluntly, no, you can do a direct hit on a city and have it livable again within a few years. Particularly if you're not overly concerned about long life spans.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2015/03/15 21:47:25
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
4000
FB 2000
