Asadjud wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

You do realize that the only thing that that video proves is that an APC had an accident and probably killed those two people as a result of that accident? Because if it was on purpose then why is the APC still there, crashed?

Saying that it "ran over some people" is just another example of you guys spreading propaganda.

With such logic you can say that people in Kiev at 2014 came to the Maidan because they felt lonely and set fires because they felt cold. It's just a solipsism.

PhantomViper wrote:

So your theory is that the Ukrainian army threw away an AFV just to purposely run over a mother and her two children?

PhantomViper wrote:

Asadjud wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

You do realize that the only thing that that video proves is that an APC had an accident and probably killed those two people as a result of that accident? Because if it was on purpose then why is the APC still there, crashed?

Saying that it "ran over some people" is just another example of you guys spreading propaganda.

With such logic you can say that people in Kiev at 2014 came to the Maidan because they felt lonely and set fires because they felt cold. It's just a solipsism.

So your theory is that the Ukrainian army threw away an AFV just to purposely run over a mother and her two children?

 loki old fart wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Asadjud wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

You do realize that the only thing that that video proves is that an APC had an accident and probably killed those two people as a result of that accident? Because if it was on purpose then why is the APC still there, crashed?

Saying that it "ran over some people" is just another example of you guys spreading propaganda.

With such logic you can say that people in Kiev at 2014 came to the Maidan because they felt lonely and set fires because they felt cold. It's just a solipsism.

So your theory is that the Ukrainian army threw away an AFV just to purposely run over a mother and her two children?

It's an APC not a car. They'll just reverse it. look at the scratch, and drive on.

Asadjud wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

So your theory is that the Ukrainian army threw away an AFV just to purposely run over a mother and her two children?

I said that Ukrainian APC runned over mother and children, people died and riot started in that city. Than I added that road accidents with Ukrainian military are common here, drivers often are drunk.
Don't know where you found that theory. Or my english is so terrible, or you had read something wrong.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Here you can see it better. If this is not enough proof for you, than the problem is with you. We have a crashed APC, dead people, blood, a lot of witnesses and an angry crowd. I would say that is plenty of evidence for saying that means that the APC ran over some people. Or maybe you are just so biased that you can't see reality anymore? For how could the glorious infallible and totally not-fascist Ukrainian Army ever make any mistakes in its operation against terrorists and the evil Russian hordes and their monstrous dicator?

You'll note that I said that I agree that it's likely that said incident happened, but that the previous video you linked provided little evidence in itself. But please, do attack me for being biased while setting up a strawman so you can bash Ukraine some more. I've never claimed that there aren't some rather unpleasant people (to say the least) involved in the Ukranian side, so I'd be much obliged if you stopped pretending I did. Just for future reference, this:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
On the other hand, the opposition is partially neo-nazis as well. There's some rather unsavory types on both sides.

is my first post in this thread, the 11th post in the thread in total.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I don't doubt that it could have happened (I'd even agree that it's likely it did)

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The vehicle was an MT-LB, not BMP. The carriage itself was not run over, only the mother pushing it and her older daughter. The child died on the spot, and the mother later in hospital. The baby was not injured afaik.

When EU leaders meet for a summit in Brussels later this week they will have to confront serious divisions on whether and when to extend sanctions, imposed on key sectors of the Russian economy in response to the Kremlin's actions in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

But amidst talk of unresolved splits on sanctions, there does seem to be broad agreement on a separate but related issue: the need to challenge what a draft version of the summit's conclusions calls "Russia's ongoing disinformation campaigns".

The EU's foreign policy chief, Federica Mogherini, will be given the task of preparing an action plan (Brussels loves those) on strategic communication in support of media freedom. It should be ready by June.

The EU and its member states have been concerned for some time about Russian propaganda, and about the fact that the counter-argument coming from the EU often seems to be poorly focused and unconvincing.

There is a variety of proposals about how to respond better.

Latvia has floated the idea of an EU-funded Russian-language TV station. A panel of experts looking into that possibility is due to report next month.

And efforts are already under way in the Baltics to provide better programming for channels aimed at Russian-speaking audiences within the EU.

"The key," said one official, "is to have good content and to share it well."

But there are also broader issues at stake.

A paper produced earlier this year by four countries - Denmark, Estonia, Lithuania and the UK - notes that Russia is "rapidly increasing its disinformation and propaganda campaign".

The aim, according to the paper, is "to discredit EU narratives, erode support for legitimate governments… and undermine the concept of free independent, pluralistic media".

It suggests four broad areas on which any response should focus:

The EU should raise awareness of the dangers of disinformation and the importance of a proper response. This could include further cooperation with Nato on strategic communications
The EU should tell the truth and deconstruct propaganda pro-actively. Clear objectives should be set for EU communications in its eastern neighbourhood
Credible alternatives should be provided to audiences who rely on Russia's state-controlled media. The capacity of existing credible Russian media outlets should be strengthened
Greater attention should be paid to the violation of broadcasting rules. EU media regulators need to cooperate more effectively
It is, in other words, no quick fix. Instead, it is the blueprint for a long-term strategy.

Russia will always have some success in trying to sow political divisions among the EU's 28 member states. That will remain fertile ground, because there will always be a variety of views.

But the debate about propaganda and disinformation, and the need to respond, adds to the feeling that the current dispute with Russia will not be over quickly, and that the EU is preparing for the long haul.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The vehicle was an MT-LB, not BMP. The carriage itself was not run over, only the mother pushing it and her older daughter. The child died on the spot, and the mother later in hospital. The baby was not injured afaik.

I'm just going by what little we can see in the video, but...

Ok, this is how I see it. He's going down the street coming up on a mild turn, at normal road speeds. He goes to turn, and the right side final drive breaks under stress for some reason. It spins him slightly the wrong way, because you gain power on the opposite side. So he tries to reverse it to try and stop the vehicle's spin and fight inertia. That's why we see the ground chewed up more on one side between where it stopped and the road. He only had power to the left hand side.

I don't know for sure, I'd want to see a breathalyzer test, but frankly, this looks like a simple mechanical failure.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Woo, an information war with the Russians. Great. =P

I wonder if the state would actually broadcast any news created in that manner though? They're quick to clamp down on any anti-government grumbling, so having a channel which will spend all its time calling bull on the party line doesn't seem like something which would be agreeable. Then again I don't know if there's already stations in the country which do it already and if they're marginalized or not. It seems a little sad that NATO considers the Russian state media to be so full of crap that it needs to provide a counterpoint. ...Otherwise if a war comes then that's more brainwashed soldiers to fight against them I suppose. Have your popcorn ready for the typical response from the Kremlin.

I've probably linked this thread here before, but for those interest regular images and analysis of the soldiers and equipment being used over there. I ponder now actually how many black people are fighting on the Russian side? I, ah, kind of sort of thought that the nationalists over there didn't put building race relations high on their list of priorities (though I guess both sides have people just fighting for the cause and overlooking who their current allies may be, ie all the yellow sleeves on the Ukrainian side).

 Matthew wrote:
Rossiya – svyashchennaya nasha derzhava,
Rossiya – lyubimaya nasha strana.
Moguchaya volya, velikaya slava –
Tvoyo dostoyanye na vse vremena!

 Frazzled wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Rossiya – svyashchennaya nasha derzhava,
Rossiya – lyubimaya nasha strana.
Moguchaya volya, velikaya slava –
Tvoyo dostoyanye na vse vremena!

Uno mas tequila por favor?

 Matthew wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Rossiya – svyashchennaya nasha derzhava,
Rossiya – lyubimaya nasha strana.
Moguchaya volya, velikaya slava –
Tvoyo dostoyanye na vse vremena!

Uno mas tequila por favor?

I DON'T KNOW

 Matthew wrote:
Rossiya – svyashchennaya nasha derzhava,
Rossiya – lyubimaya nasha strana.
Moguchaya volya, velikaya slava –
Tvoyo dostoyanye na vse vremena!

 BaronIveagh wrote:


So, when do you think he'll invade Poland?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

So, when do you think he'll invade Poland?

Asadjud wrote:


As for anti-propaganda activity of EU, it will be just another one propaganda but from another side and paid by the state. And while it is EU propaganda - it will be displayed like a Paladin of Light and Truth fighting with devilish russian chimera.

Asadjud wrote:

Not earlier than USA will bring bloody "democracy" to another country like they did in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Asadjud wrote:

And when somebody will bring sanctions on Ukraine for disruption of Minsk agreements?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Asadjud wrote:

Not earlier than USA will bring bloody "democracy" to another country like they did in Iraq or Afghanistan.

. Wait for them to conquer someplace and then actually stay, strip the locals of their property, and heard them into camps, all in the name of freedom and democracy. Then you can tell me about American hypocrisy..
About the point where the Ukraine does so by invading another country.

 loki old fart wrote:

No that's wasteful. Far better to give them a loan from the IMF, That puts them in so much debt. Their great great grandchildren will be paying it off.. No need for guards.

British military personnel have started training members of the Ukrainian army fighting pro-Russian rebels, the BBC has learned.

The 35 trainers are working in the southern city of Mykolaiv and will spend about two months in the country.

They will be training forces engaged in battles in eastern Ukraine in medicine and defensive tactics, and supplying non-lethal equipment.

Russia has criticised the deployment saying it does not "strengthen trust".

The deal was announced by Prime Minister David Cameron last month.

It is the first time a Western nation has conducted a long-term military training programme in Ukraine since its war against pro-Russian rebels began last year.

Ceasefire
A ceasefire took effect on 15 February following an agreement reached in Minsk, Belarus, and has largely held despite sporadic shelling.

The British government is also supplying first aid kits, sleeping bags and night-vision goggles as part of its pledge to provide assistance and more British teams are expected to arrive in Ukraine over the coming weeks.

BBC correspondent Tom Burridge said the deployment of dozens of military instructors was a symbolic move that would not alter the military balance of the war.

Dmitry Pveskov, press secretary to President Putin, told journalists: "A presence of foreign instructors in Ukraine cannot facilitate the settlement of the conflict in this country.

"Of course, it has been stated repeatedly that it does not contribute to the strengthening of trust or relaxation of tension in the conflict zone.

"It can be clearly said that it does not contribute to the settlement."

The United States has already said it is planning to send a battalion to train three Ukrainian battalions.

More than 6,000 people have died since the fighting in Ukraine erupted last April, the UN has estimated, although the organisation believes the real figure could be considerably higher.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
The UK is deploying trainers to assist Ukraine, and the Russian press secretary deploys weapons grade irony

 BaronIveagh wrote:


And IMF hardly better than what you English have, you're still paying off some of your war debts from fighting Napoleon... hell, i think the reason you were against us joining the UN was you were worried you'd have to pay up what you still owed us from the American Revolution.

 Pete Melvin wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


And IMF hardly better than what you English have, you're still paying off some of your war debts from fighting Napoleon... hell, i think the reason you were against us joining the UN was you were worried you'd have to pay up what you still owed us from the American Revolution.

People in glass house old boy

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-costs-of-us-wars-have-lingered-for-more-than-100-years-2013-3?IR=T

 loki old fart wrote:
Indeed
America's European "Allies" Desert Obama, Join China-led Infrastructure Bank

Spoiler:

It appears the sea of de-dollarization has reached the shores of Europe. With Australia and UK having already moved in the direction of joining the China-led AIIB, The FT reports that France, Germany, and Italy have now all agreed to join the development bank as 'pivot to Asia' appears to be Plan B for Europe. As Greg Sheridan previously noted, "the saga of the China Bank is almost a textbook case of the failure of Obama’s foreign policy," but as The FT concludes, the European decisions represent a significant setback for the Obama administration, which has argued that western countries could have more influence over the workings of the new bank if they stayed together on the outside. As Forbes notes, this leaves Obama with 3 uncomfortable options..
As The FT reports,

France, Germany and Italy have all agreed to follow Britain’s lead and join a China-led international development bank, according to European officials, delivering a blow to US efforts to keep leading western countries out of the new institution.

The decision by the three European governments comes after Britain announced last week that it would join the $50bn Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, a potential rival to the Washington-based World Bank.

The European decisions represent a significant setback for the Obama administration, which has argued that western countries could have more influence over the workings of the new bank if they stayed together on the outside and pushed for higher lending standards.

The AIIB, which was formally launched by Chinese President Xi Jinping last year, is one element of a broader Chinese push to create new financial and economic institutions that will increase its international influence. It has become a central issue in the growing contest between China and the US over who will define the economic and trade rules in Asia over the coming decades.

This follows Australia and UK...
Australia, a key US ally in the Asia-Pacific region which had come under pressure from Washington to stay out of the new bank, has also said that it will now rethink that position.

When Britain announced its decision to join the AIIB last week, the Obama administration told the Financial Times that it was part of a broader trend of “constant accommodation” by London of China. British officials were relatively restrained in their criticism of China over its handling of pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong last year.

Britain tried to gain “first mover advantage” last week by signing up to the fledgling Chinese-led bank before other G7 members.
Britain hopes to establish itself as the number one destination for Chinese investment and UK officials were unrepentant.

De-dollarization continues... As Simon Black recently concluded, now we can see words are turning into action...

[The Allies] might be too polite to tell the US straight up– “Look, you have $18.1 trillion in official debt, you have $42 trillion in unfunded liabilities, and you’re kind of a dick. I’m dumping you.”



So instead they’re going with the “it’s not you, it’s me” approach.

But to anyone paying attention, it’s pretty obvious where this trend is going.
It won’t be long before other western nations jump on the anti-dollar bandwagon with action and not just words.

Thoughts of rats and ship come to mind.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Indeed
America's European "Allies" Desert Obama, Join China-led Infrastructure Bank

Spoiler:

It appears the sea of de-dollarization has reached the shores of Europe. With Australia and UK having already moved in the direction of joining the China-led AIIB, The FT reports that France, Germany, and Italy have now all agreed to join the development bank as 'pivot to Asia' appears to be Plan B for Europe. As Greg Sheridan previously noted, "the saga of the China Bank is almost a textbook case of the failure of Obama’s foreign policy," but as The FT concludes, the European decisions represent a significant setback for the Obama administration, which has argued that western countries could have more influence over the workings of the new bank if they stayed together on the outside. As Forbes notes, this leaves Obama with 3 uncomfortable options..
As The FT reports,

France, Germany and Italy have all agreed to follow Britain’s lead and join a China-led international development bank, according to European officials, delivering a blow to US efforts to keep leading western countries out of the new institution.

The decision by the three European governments comes after Britain announced last week that it would join the $50bn Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, a potential rival to the Washington-based World Bank.

The European decisions represent a significant setback for the Obama administration, which has argued that western countries could have more influence over the workings of the new bank if they stayed together on the outside and pushed for higher lending standards.

The AIIB, which was formally launched by Chinese President Xi Jinping last year, is one element of a broader Chinese push to create new financial and economic institutions that will increase its international influence. It has become a central issue in the growing contest between China and the US over who will define the economic and trade rules in Asia over the coming decades.

This follows Australia and UK...
Australia, a key US ally in the Asia-Pacific region which had come under pressure from Washington to stay out of the new bank, has also said that it will now rethink that position.

When Britain announced its decision to join the AIIB last week, the Obama administration told the Financial Times that it was part of a broader trend of “constant accommodation” by London of China. British officials were relatively restrained in their criticism of China over its handling of pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong last year.

Britain tried to gain “first mover advantage” last week by signing up to the fledgling Chinese-led bank before other G7 members.
Britain hopes to establish itself as the number one destination for Chinese investment and UK officials were unrepentant.

De-dollarization continues... As Simon Black recently concluded, now we can see words are turning into action...

[The Allies] might be too polite to tell the US straight up– “Look, you have $18.1 trillion in official debt, you have $42 trillion in unfunded liabilities, and you’re kind of a dick. I’m dumping you.”



So instead they’re going with the “it’s not you, it’s me” approach.

But to anyone paying attention, it’s pretty obvious where this trend is going.
It won’t be long before other western nations jump on the anti-dollar bandwagon with action and not just words.

Thoughts of rats and ship come to mind.

No source for this?

 loki old fart wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31921011
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-31864877
http://www.forbes.com/sites/elizabetheconomy/2015/03/16/the-aiib-debacle-what-washington-should-do-now/
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-17/plan-b-major-european-allies-desert-obama-join-china-led-infrastructure-bank
http://rt.com/business/241365-china-bank-eu-usa/