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 Iron_Captain wrote:

The only one godwinning the thread is you. Stop making comparisons that make no sense whatsoever. It makes you look dumb and ignorant of history and the present situation.

Let's see, invade another country, and claim you're doing so to protect an ethnic group....

check.

Interfere in a civil war under the guise of 'volunteers' who just happen to have left the army with all their gear, including tanks, aircraft, and warships?

Check.

Have radical right wing extremists bump off prominent opposition figures and claim to be shocked and horrified and taking a direct hand in the 'investigation'?

Check.

Threaten Denmark possibly in an effort to isolate other countries from their allies in preparation for a military campaign?

Check.

Start laying the groundwork for a campaign against Poland.

Check, and REALLY?????



At what point would you say it would be fair to make the comparison? When he declares the dawn of a thousand year Russian Empire? Puts on a brown shirt with a red arm band and has everyone saying 'Hail Putin!'?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Not going to happen. First of all, Poland is a stable country. The kind of sneaky annexation Russia did in Ukraine only works in unstable countries. Unless there would be a major destabilising event in Poland, such a thing is not going to work.
Secondly, Poland has no Russian minority, so there would be no local support which is necessary for the hybrid warfare Russia used in Ukraine.
Thirdly, why in Heaven's name would Putin ever want to attack Poland? There is absolutely nothing about Poland that relates to Russia's national interests in any way. The Poles have gone mad. (altough with their history, I can't blame them for being so suspicious to Russia)

Actually Poland does have a Russian minority, according to the 2011 census. Not a big one, mind you, but they do have one. That doesn't matter much though. Produce a 'Polish' one to distance yourself from it a bit by recruiting unhappy and disenfranchised members of polish society, arm, train, and supply them, and then let them loose. Putin has run similar operations back when he was a KGB officer.

As KM points out, it's quite easy to destabilize a country. Russia and the United States have done it for years.

It's hard to call russians a 'minority' when it comes to Ukraine.

For example, there are ~60% russians and only ~25% ukranians living in Crimea.

Something similar goes for Donbass too.

It's gone on long enough now.

I'm up to date with all my podcasts and not got much going on at the moment.

We should just declare war and have done with it all

In all seriousness though, we're sort of supposed to anyway, Ukraine relinquished it's nuclear arsenal under an understanding that NATO would defend their sovereignty, well Ukraine territory is now in Russian hands...

I doubt it would be if Ukraine did still have had it's nukes.

At the very least I wouldn't blame the old Soviet territories if they wanted to re-arm themselves.

If war did come I wonder who would press the big red button first. Either way all participants are certain to be destroyed , I can't imagine either side really doing it.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The only one godwinning the thread is you. Stop making comparisons that make no sense whatsoever. It makes you look dumb and ignorant of history and the present situation.

Let's see, invade another country, and claim you're doing so to protect an ethnic group....
check.
Have radical right wing extremists bump off prominent opposition figures and claim to be shocked and horrified and taking a direct hand in the 'investigation'?
Check.
As KM points out, it's quite easy to destabilize a country. Russia and the United States have done it for years.

And don't forget going in to remove weapons of mass destruction

 koooaei wrote:
It's hard to call russians a 'minority' when it comes to Ukraine.
For example, there are ~60% russians and only ~25% ukranians living in Crimea.
Something similar goes for Donbass too.

And according to a poll done in Kiev, 50% of the west Ukraines population, isn't behind them either.
The oligarchs are already arguing amongst each other..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidianaura wrote:
It's gone on long enough now.

I'm up to date with all my podcasts and not got much going on at the moment.

We should just declare war and have done with it all

In all seriousness though, we're sort of supposed to anyway, Ukraine relinquished it's nuclear arsenal under an understanding that NATO would defend their sovereignty, well Ukraine territory is now in Russian hands...

I doubt it would be if Ukraine did still have had it's nukes.

At the very least I wouldn't blame the old Soviet territories if they wanted to re-arm themselves.

If war did come I wonder who would press the big red button first. Either way all participants are certain to be destroyed , I can't imagine either side really doing it.

Here get stuck in

And as for media coverage.

This is a bit old news, but it sheds some light on the recent change in EU policy and some might even say on some posters here on Dakka as well!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/09/putins-new-weapon-in-the-ukraine-propaganda-war-internet-trolls/

The internet troll army’s selling of the Kremlin’s parallel universe to the Russian people and to a skeptical Western audience is a matter of life and death for the Putin regime. If the Russian people do not buy their story, Putin loses the high “ratings” on which his regime rests. If he cannot convince his Western audience, Europe and the United States will take actions that spoil his Novorossiya ventures and threaten his regime. Trolling is a high stakes business that Putin takes seriously and the West must not underestimate.

Germany’s Angela Merkel described Russian President Vladimir Putin, after a phone conversation, as “living in another world.” Like Merkel, we, who write on Russia’s War on Ukraine, have all had our rude introduction to Putin’s “other world.” In his parallel universe, the aggressor is the victim, strangers appoint themselves “premiers” of non-existent “republics,” hundreds of soldiers mysteriously perish in border exercises or “on vacation,” a certified nationally elected government is a “neo-Nazi junta,” and hundreds of tanks and heavy weapons crossing borders are optical illusions.

Putin’s trolls describe the Kremlin’s other world

Putin’s Alice-in-Wonderland can be wacky, mind boggling, irritating, disgusting, cynical, and incorrigible, but underlying it is a sinister narrative of an alternate reality, cleverly designed to promote Putin’s goals and head off effective Western actions.

Putin has used a troll army throughout his presidency that went largely unnoticed prior to the Crimean invasion. The Kremlin indeed requires an “army” to construct a new universe parallel to the “real universe” in which we live. Google GOOGL -1.8% counts 1.5 million media entries under “Putin attacks Ukraine.” The trolls must convince their audience that the Google entry should read instead “Ukraine attacks Russia.” Quite a job!

According to a Buzzfeed account, each troll is expected to post 50 news articles daily and maintain six Facebook and ten Twitter accounts, with 50 tweets per day. At these rates, a small army of one thousand trolls will post 100,000 news articles and tweets per day. The Kremlin does not spare the cash. In a time of austerity, the budget for “participation in the international information space” is scheduled to rise to some $250 million in the next couple of years.

But remember: In Putin’s parallel universe, there is no troll army. They are a fantasy of Western paranoia. It is, however, a fact that these “non-existent” trolls overwhelm “comments” sections of media to render meaningful dialogue impossible. The Guardian’s editor reported 40,000 comments a day by an “orchestrated pro-Kremlin campaign” of pro-Russia trolling on Ukraine stories. Harassed by the flood, some publications have decided to close their comments sections, as the Moscow Times informed its readers:

“Due to the increasing number of users engaging in personal attacks, spam, trolling and abusive comments, we are no longer able to host our forum as a site for constructive and intelligent debate. It is with regret, therefore, that we have found ourselves forced to suspend the commenting function on our articles.”

It's what I've suspected all along. The wiener dogs are just a front, Frazzled is actually a Russian spy. *gasp*

Its happening on Europe this year: Oh my god, democracy is fetched!!!

Its happening on South America and Mid orient for the last 50: who cares?

Sounds about right.

PhantomViper wrote:
This is a bit old news, but it sheds some light on the recent change in EU policy and some might even say on some posters here on Dakka as well!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/09/putins-new-weapon-in-the-ukraine-propaganda-war-internet-trolls/

The internet troll army’s selling of the Kremlin’s parallel universe to the Russian people and to a skeptical Western audience is a matter of life and death for the Putin regime. If the Russian people do not buy their story, Putin loses the high “ratings” on which his regime rests. If he cannot convince his Western audience, Europe and the United States will take actions that spoil his Novorossiya ventures and threaten his regime. Trolling is a high stakes business that Putin takes seriously and the West must not underestimate.

Germany’s Angela Merkel described Russian President Vladimir Putin, after a phone conversation, as “living in another world.” Like Merkel, we, who write on Russia’s War on Ukraine, have all had our rude introduction to Putin’s “other world.” In his parallel universe, the aggressor is the victim, strangers appoint themselves “premiers” of non-existent “republics,” hundreds of soldiers mysteriously perish in border exercises or “on vacation,” a certified nationally elected government is a “neo-Nazi junta,” and hundreds of tanks and heavy weapons crossing borders are optical illusions.

Putin’s trolls describe the Kremlin’s other world

Putin’s Alice-in-Wonderland can be wacky, mind boggling, irritating, disgusting, cynical, and incorrigible, but underlying it is a sinister narrative of an alternate reality, cleverly designed to promote Putin’s goals and head off effective Western actions.

Putin has used a troll army throughout his presidency that went largely unnoticed prior to the Crimean invasion. The Kremlin indeed requires an “army” to construct a new universe parallel to the “real universe” in which we live. Google GOOGL -1.8% counts 1.5 million media entries under “Putin attacks Ukraine.” The trolls must convince their audience that the Google entry should read instead “Ukraine attacks Russia.” Quite a job!

According to a Buzzfeed account, each troll is expected to post 50 news articles daily and maintain six Facebook and ten Twitter accounts, with 50 tweets per day. At these rates, a small army of one thousand trolls will post 100,000 news articles and tweets per day. The Kremlin does not spare the cash. In a time of austerity, the budget for “participation in the international information space” is scheduled to rise to some $250 million in the next couple of years.

But remember: In Putin’s parallel universe, there is no troll army. They are a fantasy of Western paranoia. It is, however, a fact that these “non-existent” trolls overwhelm “comments” sections of media to render meaningful dialogue impossible. The Guardian’s editor reported 40,000 comments a day by an “orchestrated pro-Kremlin campaign” of pro-Russia trolling on Ukraine stories. Harassed by the flood, some publications have decided to close their comments sections, as the Moscow Times informed its readers:

“Due to the increasing number of users engaging in personal attacks, spam, trolling and abusive comments, we are no longer able to host our forum as a site for constructive and intelligent debate. It is with regret, therefore, that we have found ourselves forced to suspend the commenting function on our articles.”

They must have been hard at work in this video.

 loki old fart wrote:

They must have been hard at work in this video.

And apparently the aren't the only ones working hard on it... Right, komrade?

PhantomViper wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

They must have been hard at work in this video.

And apparently the aren't the only ones working hard on it... Right, komrade?

I thought that was your job.

 loki old fart wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

They must have been hard at work in this video.

And apparently the aren't the only ones working hard on it... Right, komrade?

I thought that was your job.

No, I don't usually take my "news" from Putin's RT, nor do I spam threads with propaganda pieces like you do.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let's see, invade another country, and claim you're doing so to protect an ethnic group....
check.

Negative. Also blaming someone in that, first remember how USA protected Cuba, Dominicana, Grenada, Panama etc. That's why whataboutory annoys you.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Interfere in a civil war under the guise of 'volunteers' who just happen to have left the army with all their gear, including tanks, aircraft, and warships?
Check.

Negative. If you want to find russian, you will find them everywhere. Kolomoyskyi even found them in Kiev in Ukrnafta (Ukraininan Oil company) office. And what about non-ukrainian soldiers fighting on Ukrainian side with NATO wargear?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Have radical right wing extremists bump off prominent opposition figures and claim to be shocked and horrified and taking a direct hand in the 'investigation'?
Check.

I do not excuse murder, but is it Nemtsov a prominent opposition figure???

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Start laying the groundwork for a campaign against Poland.
Check, and REALLY?????

Negative. Like 50 years ago, you can do anything you want under the slogan "Ivans are coming". Weaponry manufacturers are particularly pleased. I think if Putin tomorrow coughs in the direction of Poland or the Baltic States it will be announced as bacteriological attack. Again, if you want to see russians preparing invasion to Poland - you will see it.

P.S. do not strain to call me kremlin propagandist, I have already guessed.

Asadjud wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let's see, invade another country, and claim you're doing so to protect an ethnic group....
check.

Negative. Also blaming someone in that, first remember how USA protected Cuba, Dominicana, Grenada, Panama etc. That's why whataboutory annoys you.

Are Russian soldiers on Ukranian soil without being invited by the Ukranian government? Yes? Then they invaded.

The USA has a long and well documented history of meddling in other countries affairs. I fail to see how that makes Russia's equally long and well documented history not exist.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Asadjud wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let's see, invade another country, and claim you're doing so to protect an ethnic group....
check.

Negative. Also blaming someone in that, first remember how USA protected Cuba, Dominicana, Grenada, Panama etc. That's why whataboutory annoys you.

Are Russian soldiers on Ukranian soil without being invited by the Ukranian government? Yes? Then they invaded.

The USA has a long and well documented history of meddling in other countries affairs. I fail to see how that makes Russia's equally long and well documented history not exist.

Are Russian soldiers on Ukranian soil?
I mentioned those countries because it looks strange to me why people accuse some countries in meddling in other countries when their own state does the same in modern history.
And there is only one documented case of russian regular soldiers intervening ukrainian border - 10 soldiers in august 2014 iirc.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Asadjud wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let's see, invade another country, and claim you're doing so to protect an ethnic group....
check.

Negative. Also blaming someone in that, first remember how USA protected Cuba, Dominicana, Grenada, Panama etc. That's why whataboutory annoys you.

Are Russian soldiers on Ukranian soil without being invited by the Ukranian government? Yes? Then they invaded.

The USA has a long and well documented history of meddling in other countries affairs. I fail to see how that makes Russia's equally long and well documented history not exist.

One could argue that Yanukovich is still the legitimate leader of the Ukrainian government and he invited the Russians.

Asadjud wrote:

I mentioned those countries because it looks strange to me why people accuse some countries in meddling in other countries when their own state does the same in modern history.

Whataboutism really has to be the most linked page in this thread. I'll never cease to be amazed at how the concept doesn't want to die.

When you only have one tool to use you're gonna use it a lot.

 Tyran wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Asadjud wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let's see, invade another country, and claim you're doing so to protect an ethnic group....
check.

Negative. Also blaming someone in that, first remember how USA protected Cuba, Dominicana, Grenada, Panama etc. That's why whataboutory annoys you.

Are Russian soldiers on Ukranian soil without being invited by the Ukranian government? Yes? Then they invaded.

The USA has a long and well documented history of meddling in other countries affairs. I fail to see how that makes Russia's equally long and well documented history not exist.

One could argue that Yanukovich is still the legitimate leader of the Ukrainian government and he invited the Russians.

He's not the only person in charge of the country. He might be president but that doesn't mean he gets to invite another country's armed forces in without the consent of anyone else in government. Anyway, by fleeing the country instead he can be considered to have abandoned his post.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Asadjud wrote:

I mentioned those countries because it looks strange to me why people accuse some countries in meddling in other countries when their own state does the same in modern history.

Whataboutism really has to be the most linked page in this thread. I'll never cease to be amazed at how the concept doesn't want to die.

I was really surprised that you have special word for this and so dislike it.
Seeing such irritation when referring to a precedent means just one: what is allowed to right states is not allowed to another. And blaming someone in whataboutism is nice way to escape. It so easy to skip whole post and see only "what about..."

Asadjud wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Asadjud wrote:

I mentioned those countries because it looks strange to me why people accuse some countries in meddling in other countries when their own state does the same in modern history.

Whataboutism really has to be the most linked page in this thread. I'll never cease to be amazed at how the concept doesn't want to die.

I was really surprised that you have special word for this and so dislike it.
Seeing such irritation when referring to a precedent means just one: what is allowed to right states is not allowed to another. And blaming someone in whataboutism is nice way to escape. It so easy to skip whole post and see only "what about..."

No one's preventing you from making a thread on the evils perpetrated by other nations, but this thread deals with the situation in Ukraine, where Russia is very much involved, one way or another. Accusing ME of deflecting when all I've done is point out that you're deflecting is dishonest, to say the least.

For the record, strawmen generally isn't very polite either: I never said that anything was "allowed".

Asadjud wrote:
[Negative. Also blaming someone in that, first remember how USA protected Cuba, Dominicana, Grenada, Panama etc. That's why whataboutory annoys you.

Incorrect: Putin has stated that's exactly why Russia has become involved.

Hopeful;ly one day the forum programmers will do me the favor of adding at least

to the many national flags our forums sport.

Until such time, I have to deal with people assuming I'm an US national and that complaining as if US foreign policy has some relevancy to me beyond what bs they're pulling on us this week.

Asadjud wrote:
[
And what about non-ukrainian soldiers fighting on Ukrainian side with NATO wargear?

Show me one with identifiable unit markings. The Russians have been slipping up and leaving their unit insignias on things, and getting spotted, as was posted earlier in the thread. I also have to ask what you think is NATO equipment. Because older stuff can be bought on the open market, just as you can buy older Russian gear the same way.

Asadjud wrote:
[
Again, if you want to see russians preparing invasion to Poland - you will see it.

Well, producing huge amounts of negative propaganda about the target, massing troops and equipment on the boarder, having your spies caught and spilling the beans, and having your leader, one V Putin, make threatening comments about invading Poland, Romania, and so on is about as clear as it gets before a war declaration and troops arrive.

However, Putin has learned from past mistakes, and, if done correctly, you actually won't see it. Instead you'd see a rise in domestic terrorism, sabotage, and other efforts to incite unrest.

Asadjud wrote:
[
P.S. do not strain to call me kremlin propagandist, I have already guessed.

If you were, you'd have been shot for being so unsubtle about your views on the matter.

Asadjud wrote:
Are Russian soldiers on Ukranian soil?

Putin has said as much.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Asadjud wrote:

And what about non-ukrainian soldiers fighting on Ukrainian side with NATO wargear?

Show me one with identifiable unit markings. The Russians have been slipping up and leaving their unit insignias on things, and getting spotted, as was posted earlier in the thread. I also have to ask what you think is NATO equipment. Because older stuff can be bought on the open market, just as you can buy older Russian gear the same way.

Yeah, there's a lot being made of many Ukrainian soldiers/volunteers wearing stuff from NATO countries, but it's all surplus available to buy on the internet without any significant restrictions. Even the Russian report on M4-style carbines being found is suspect when Russia is known to not only have captured a large number of Bushmaster knock-off's from the Georgian conflict, but there are actual Russian factories making AR style rifles, in fact here's Medvedev with an Orsis M4-style carbine[ made in Moscow

There have been units fighting on the side of the DPR with the emblems of the Russian Marines, post-soviet weapons that are not contained in Ukrainian arsenals for defectors to have taken, and other incidents, the likes of which have not occurred anything near as blatantly on the Ukrainian side.

Now, are there foreign volunteers on both sides? Absolutely. Are there undercover NATO troops on the Ukrainian side? Extremely doubtful.

A big pointer is that, at least if there are, they're not being killed, there's no whiff of any NATO personnel coming home in body bags. There are a number of issues with people ostensibly serving in the Russian armed forces coming back across the border for burial and things getting real awkward. There's been some explanations about guys volunteering while "On leave" or deserting to go fight, but that would be extremely out of character for the control the Russian military exerts over individual soldiers and indicate a pronounced lack of discipline which I don't think exists.

VICE news did some great work on that issue. Now, granted they're still "western" media and take is as you will, but they've gotten far deeper than pretty much anything else I've seen, they show when both sides do terrible things and give both sides lots of camera time, including actively engaging with DNR fighters and officials. Here's their video on the issue of Russian servicemen.

https://youtu.be/C66mAkS1ZfM?list=PLw613M86o5o4_rPO7JFZe5okxxUp0B0ye

Their dispatches have seemed to be pretty good overall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCtzrLLWL0M&list=PLw613M86o5o7DfgzuUCd_PVwbOCDO472B

PhantomViper wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

They must have been hard at work in this video.

And apparently the aren't the only ones working hard on it... Right, komrade?

I thought that was your job.

No, I don't usually take my "news" from Putin's RT, nor do I spam threads with propaganda pieces like you do.

Be careful. You almost made me choke on a piece of chocolate just now.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Asadjud wrote:

And what about non-ukrainian soldiers fighting on Ukrainian side with NATO wargear?

Show me one with identifiable unit markings. The Russians have been slipping up and leaving their unit insignias on things, and getting spotted, as was posted earlier in the thread. I also have to ask what you think is NATO equipment. Because older stuff can be bought on the open market, just as you can buy older Russian gear the same way.

Yeah, there's a lot being made of many Ukrainian soldiers/volunteers wearing stuff from NATO countries, but it's all surplus available to buy on the internet without any significant restrictions. Even the Russian report on M4-style carbines being found is suspect when Russia is known to not only have captured a large number of Bushmaster knock-off's from the Georgian conflict, but there are actual Russian factories making AR style rifles, in fact here's Medvedev with an Orsis M4-style carbine[ made in Moscow

There have been units fighting on the side of the DPR with the emblems of the Russian Marines, post-soviet weapons that are not contained in Ukrainian arsenals for defectors to have taken, and other incidents, the likes of which have not occurred anything near as blatantly on the Ukrainian side.

You perfectly illustrate the bias of the West. When people with NATO gear appear on the Ukrainian side, they must be Ukrainian volunteers that have bought it on the internet. When people with Russian gear appear on the seperatist side, they must be Russian soldiers. Does it not occur to you that you can buy an entire Russian uniform, complete with every insignia you could possibly want on the internet also?
Also, most of post-soviet Russian weapons are exported to other countries and freely available on the black market. They can be seen in the Syrian War as well. Does that mean ISIS fighters are actually Russian soldiers as well? It must be, according to Western media logic...

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The only one godwinning the thread is you. Stop making comparisons that make no sense whatsoever. It makes you look dumb and ignorant of history and the present situation.

Let's see, invade another country, and claim you're doing so to protect an ethnic group....

check.

Yes, like Hitler and Putin are the only leaders in all of world history to have ever done so... It is one of the most common casus belli.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Interfere in a civil war under the guise of 'volunteers' who just happen to have left the army with all their gear, including tanks, aircraft, and warships?

Check.

Now they have warships and aircraft too? The lies get more weird every day. The seperatists have only few tanks compared to the Ukrainian army, let alone ships and aircraft... Also, I don't recall Hitler having done such a thing. afaik, the German army was not very subtle in its invasions, preferring Blitzkrieg over covert operations.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Have radical right wing extremists bump off prominent opposition figures and claim to be shocked and horrified and taking a direct hand in the 'investigation'?

Check.

Nemtsov has been made a prominent opposition figure suddenly? I was not aware. So every time a opposition figure is murdered and the murder is subsequently investigated by authorities, it makes the leader of the country in which that happened look like Hitler?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Threaten Denmark possibly in an effort to isolate other countries from their allies in preparation for a military campaign?

Check.

Russia has always been threatening others to get its way, because Russia has more hard than soft power. Stalin, the Tsars and Sweden also threatened and even invaded Denmark. Were they all Hitlers too? Certainly, of all the millions of things Hitler did in his life, threatening Denmark is one of the things one must do to look like Hitler, rather than all the things Hitler has done and became infamous for.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Start laying the groundwork for a campaign against Poland.

Check, and REALLY?????

Firstly, Putin is not doing such a thing. Secondly, even if he did, invading Poland was already in vogue centuries before Hitler was born. Poland is likely the most invaded country in world history.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
At what point would you say it would be fair to make the comparison? When he declares the dawn of a thousand year Russian Empire? Puts on a brown shirt with a red arm band and has everyone saying 'Hail Putin!'?

Yes, if you combine that with building extermination camps to exterminate entire ethnic groups. Those are things that were pretty much unique to Hitler, so if Putin were to do that, you could make a few valid comparisons. All of the stuff you listed above has been done by many people beside Hitler and thus is not a valid ground for a comparison. Of course, if you want to go down this road, I can play the game too.

Hitler ate food, slept in a bed, liked movies and was suspicous of Russian invasions.
You eat food, sleep in a bed, like movies and are suspicous of Russian invasions. Those are some remarkable similarities, Adolf...

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Not going to happen. First of all, Poland is a stable country. The kind of sneaky annexation Russia did in Ukraine only works in unstable countries. Unless there would be a major destabilising event in Poland, such a thing is not going to work.
Secondly, Poland has no Russian minority, so there would be no local support which is necessary for the hybrid warfare Russia used in Ukraine.
Thirdly, why in Heaven's name would Putin ever want to attack Poland? There is absolutely nothing about Poland that relates to Russia's national interests in any way. The Poles have gone mad. (altough with their history, I can't blame them for being so suspicious to Russia)

Actually Poland does have a Russian minority, according to the 2011 census. Not a big one, mind you, but they do have one. That doesn't matter much though. Produce a 'Polish' one to distance yourself from it a bit by recruiting unhappy and disenfranchised members of polish society, arm, train, and supply them, and then let them loose. Putin has run similar operations back when he was a KGB officer.

As KM points out, it's quite easy to destabilize a country. Russia and the United States have done it for years.

And why would Putin ever want to do such a thing? Next thing you know they are going to claim Putin wants to invade Ireland.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

You perfectly illustrate the bias of the West. When people with NATO gear appear on the Ukrainian side, they must be Ukrainian volunteers that have bought it on the internet. When people with Russian gear appear on the seperatist side, they must be Russian soldiers. Does it not occur to you that you can buy an entire Russian uniform, complete with every insignia you could possibly want on the internet also?

You can, but you're not seeing Ukrainian units with the same sort of gear. Were it just fatigues and older camo patterns, I'd agree with you. Seeing the right-wing Ukrainian volunteer groups in German camo that sometimes has German flags still on it is awkward, but you can tell it's very old just like many of the DPR units wearing late 80's era patterns that often still have Soviet iconography on them. However we aren't seeing the modernity or specificity on the Ukrainian side the way you are on the Russian stuff. You aren't seeing things like "GSG 9" or "US MARINES" on MARPAT camo on the Ukrainian gear the way we're sometimes seeing Russian equivalents on the other side. At least that I've seen.

It's the gap in modernity and the specificity of the stuff on the DNR side that appears to be much different from stuff like you'll find in the Azov batallion or the like which makes the difference here. At least from what I've seen.

Also, most of post-soviet Russian weapons are exported to other countries and freely available on the black market. They can be seen in the Syrian War as well. Does that mean ISIS fighters are actually Russian soldiers as well? It must be, according to Western media logic...

Post-soviet weapons deployed to the Russian forces after the breakup of the Soviet Union are not particularly common. You see lots of AK-47's, AKM's, lots of PKM's, and a relatively sparse sprinkling of AK-74's around the world, relatively more AK-74's in Ukraine because it was the standard Soviet service rifle at the time of the breakup in the early 90's and continued to be used by Ukraine. Sure, those weapons are understandable.

You don't see AK-74M's (introduced in 1991 and not widely issued until the mid-late 90's and AFAIK Ukraine does not have this weapon) or PKP Pecheneg Machine guns (issued only starting in the 2000's) in conflicts around the world as such weapons are significantly less widespread. You see a few in Syria because the Syrian government obtained them from the Russian Federation relatively recently, and some have been looted by their opponents, but not very many at all. Seeing such weapons on the lines in areas of Ukraine would indicate a direct supply source, of some sort, from Russian armories. These weapons are not in Ukrainian stocks to loot or defect with, and their availability from other places is limited in the extreme. Could they be weapons purchased on the black market? Perhaps. But I'd like to think that the Russian military has more discipline and control over its armories now than it did 20 years ago, and unless they're being supplied by Kyrgyzstan or Kazakhstan (either of which would likely require transport through Russia), Russia has to be the source of these weapons.

This was a particular sore thumb with the Crimean action, as you had lots of troops almost exclusively armed with weapons like these, particularly AK-74M's, of which Ukraine had none, and to which Putin subsequently admitted to having deployed Russian forces.

If we were seeing M4 carbines with giggle-switches and Colt's arsenal markings and ACOG's on the Ukrainian side I'd be pointing the same accusations the opposite way. Thus far, we've only seen a very small handful of western weapons (the kinds which are produced both in the US and in Russia and other nations), and lacking arsenal markings which leaves their provenance suspect.

Now, the US can be accused of having done exactly the same thing in other nations, and there's no point in denying that, I'm not saying that Russia is the only nation to have ever engaged in this sort of thing, only that there's a ton of evidence that they currently are doing so in Ukraine currently and it does not appear that there's a lot of evidence of active participation by NATO nations in the Ukrainian conflict aside from what they're openly doing


EDIT: on the note of AK-74M's, that's a rifle I'd love to have, I have an AK-74, but could only ever get a Saiga-conversion clone of an AK-74M, and even those look to be going bye-bye

 Vaktathi wrote:


on the note of AK-74M's, that's a rifle I'd love to have, I have an AK-74, but could only ever get a Saiga-conversion clone of an AK-74M, and even those look to be going bye-bye

I'll have a word with the boss, see if I can get you a couple, Komrade.

Frazz's neighborhood may get exciting.

http://www.rferl.org/content/united-states-ukraine-russia-mexico-arms-/26921256.html

The head of the legislature in Russia's Chechnya region says that Russia will provide arms to Mexico if Washington supplies weapons to Ukraine.

Chechen Parliament Speaker Dukvakha Abdurakhmanov said the arms would be aimed at reigniting U.S.-Mexican disputes over “territories annexed by the United States in the American states of California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and part of Wyoming.”

“We will perceive arms shipments to Ukraine as a signal to respond in kind,” Abdurakhmanov said in a March 24 statement posted on the Chechen parliament’s website.

Abdurakhmanov is a close associate of Ramzan Kadyrov, the Kremlin-backed strongman who rules Chechnya.

Yeah, that's stupid. A war with the US would be the last thing mexico wants.