Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!

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**CptJake**

If (and that is a BIG IF I don't think is gonna materialize) it were to happen, I suspect the arms would go to cartels and other groups willing to cause trouble and not necessarily the gov't of Mexico.

I suspect it was not meant as a serious comment to be honest.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Considering the Mexican government can't win their war with the cartels and still don't really have control of many of their northern provinces? Yeaaaah no.

Wouldn't a response in kind require shipping arms to a state attempting to leave the U.S. or stay out? So logically the Russians should send arms to Texas.

**reds8n**

From what one recalls your ATF has already been doing this.

Once again the eagle out-manoeuvres the bear !

**AlmightyWalrus**

CptJake wrote:
Frazz's neighborhood may get exciting.

http://www.rferl.org/content/united-states-ukraine-russia-mexico-arms-/26921256.html

The head of the legislature in Russia's Chechnya region says that Russia will provide arms to Mexico if Washington supplies weapons to Ukraine.

Chechen Parliament Speaker Dukvakha Abdurakhmanov said the arms would be aimed at reigniting U.S.-Mexican disputes over “territories annexed by the United States in the American states of California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and part of Wyoming.”

“We will perceive arms shipments to Ukraine as a signal to respond in kind,” Abdurakhmanov said in a March 24 statement posted on the Chechen parliament’s website.

Abdurakhmanov is a close associate of Ramzan Kadyrov, the Kremlin-backed strongman who rules Chechnya.

Wouldn't that be escalating it? I mean, Ukraine's only fighting separatists, not Russian soldiers under any circumstance ever honestly you guys!

**Dreadclaw69**

Iron_Captain wrote:
You perfectly illustrate the bias of the West. When people with NATO gear appear on the Ukrainian side, they must be Ukrainian volunteers that have bought it on the internet. When people with Russian gear appear on the seperatist side, they must be Russian soldiers. Does it not occur to you that you can buy an entire Russian uniform, complete with every insignia you could possibly want on the internet also?
Also, most of post-soviet Russian weapons are exported to other countries and freely available on the black market. They can be seen in the Syrian War as well. Does that mean ISIS fighters are actually Russian soldiers as well? It must be, according to Western media logic...

You might want to tell Putin to stop admitting that there were Russian soldiers in Ukraine then

**CptJake**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
You perfectly illustrate the bias of the West. When people with NATO gear appear on the Ukrainian side, they must be Ukrainian volunteers that have bought it on the internet. When people with Russian gear appear on the seperatist side, they must be Russian soldiers. Does it not occur to you that you can buy an entire Russian uniform, complete with every insignia you could possibly want on the internet also?
Also, most of post-soviet Russian weapons are exported to other countries and freely available on the black market. They can be seen in the Syrian War as well. Does that mean ISIS fighters are actually Russian soldiers as well? It must be, according to Western media logic...

You might want to tell Putin to stop admitting that there were Russian soldiers in Ukraine then

Well that, and to stop allowing certain vehicles/weapon systems that Ukraine never had and have not been exported, and which require certain training and logistics tails to be used within the Ukraine.

There have been examples of Russian Only gear being used, and I'm not talking about uniforms, web gear and rifles.

**whembly**

reds8n wrote:
From what one recalls your ATF has already been doing this.

Once again the eagle out-manoeuvres the bear !

You're referring to the Fast and Furious scandal.

The ironic thing about the whole thing is that the Cartels (or any criminal for that matter) in Mexico can get better weapons in Central America.

Besides... I'm sure Texans wouldn't give a gak... it's more target practice for them.

**Strombones**

reds8n wrote:
From what one recalls your ATF has already been doing this.

Once again the eagle out-manoeuvres the bear !

It was their plan all along!

Never attribute to incompetence what can be attributed to Machiavellian genius!

**Dreadclaw69**

Are the sanctions starting to bite?
http://news.yahoo.com/grounded-russias-answer-us-next-gen-fighter-hits-161003932.html

Russia's ambitious T-50 fighter plane project was meant to develop a rival to two futuristic US jetfighters, the F-22 Raptor and the planned F-35 Lightning-II.

But now, the T-50 appears to be rivaling the F-35 another way: in development troubles. The Kremlin is slamming the brakes on its "fifth generation" fighter program and cutting its initial rollout to a quarter of those originally planned.

The decision seems a setback for Vladimir Putin's sweeping $800 billion rearmament program, a vital component of the wider effort to restore Russia to its Soviet-era status as a major global superpower. However, the sharp slowdown in plans to procure the sophisticated new jet may represent an outbreak of wisdom on the part of Russian military chiefs, who will remember how the USSR was driven into bankruptcy by engaging in an all-out arms race with the US.

Recommended: Sochi, Soviets, and tsars: How much do you know about Russia?

Financial constraints are the key reason cited for cutting the military order from 52 to 12 of the planes over the next few years, according to the Moscow daily Kommersant.

"Given the new economic conditions, the original plans may have to be adjusted," the paper quotes Deputy Defense Minister Yuriy Borisov as saying. The project to build a cutting-edge fighter plane, which is partly financed by India, will not be canceled, but held in abeyance while the Russian Air Force makes the most of its existing "fourth generation" MiG and Sukhoi combat aircraft, he added.

No one knows whether technical problems may also have played a role in the decision to shelve the fighter.

"We may suppose there are problems, but hard information is lacking," says Alexander Golts, an independent military expert. "For instance, the prototypes of this plane have been using an old engine, pending the development of the engine it needs. Has that been developed yet? We have no idea."

The only operational "fifth generation" fighter in the world is the US F-22. Its production was canceled in 2009, after fewer than 200 of the hyper-expensive planes had been built. American military services are now awaiting the arrival of the newer and also hugely overpriced F-35, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter, but that program has been dogged with serious delays and technical failures.

The T-50, an advanced stealth plane with many capabilities lacking in previous fighters, has prompted some alarm in the West. The Russians have presented the project as an example of how they are able to leapfrog over the lost years, after Russia's military-industrial complex collapsed along with the Soviet Union, and field 21st century weapons that can rival the best the US has to offer.

Most of the weaponry that's currently in Russia's military inventory are Soviet-era designs that have evolved to incorporate new technology. Only three projects currently in the testing phase have been entirely developed by post-Soviet Russia. They are the T-50, the recently unveiled T-14 Armata tank, and the Bulava submarine-launched ballistic missile.

Recent reports suggest that Russian military brass have also decided to slash orders for the new Armata tank, and instead continue using older, Soviet-designed models for a few more years.

There is no word on the fate of other grand projects that Russian military leaders have claimed to have on the drawing boards. These include plans for a super-sized aircraft carrier that would dwarf the US Nimitz class, and an enormous supersonic transport plane that could deliver up to 400 tanks anywhere in the world.

"Despite all these soaring plans, I think we see a bit of reason taking hold in the Russian military establishment," says Mr. Golts. "Even if there were no economic crisis, and no sanctions, this massively expensive rearmament program would not be what Russia needs right now. Scaling it back is a wise move."

**Frazzled**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
You perfectly illustrate the bias of the West. When people with NATO gear appear on the Ukrainian side, they must be Ukrainian volunteers that have bought it on the internet. When people with Russian gear appear on the seperatist side, they must be Russian soldiers. Does it not occur to you that you can buy an entire Russian uniform, complete with every insignia you could possibly want on the internet also?
Also, most of post-soviet Russian weapons are exported to other countries and freely available on the black market. They can be seen in the Syrian War as well. Does that mean ISIS fighters are actually Russian soldiers as well? It must be, according to Western media logic...

You might want to tell Putin to stop admitting that there were Russian soldiers in Ukraine then

"Chechnya" is going to give arms to Mexico to fight the US?

Mexico has better stuff than Russian

already. This guy needs to read a book.

His name isn't Zimmerman is it?

**Vaktathi**

loki old fart wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:

on the note of AK-74M's, that's a rifle I'd love to have, I have an AK-74, but could only ever get a Saiga-conversion clone of an AK-74M, and even those look to be going bye-bye

I'll have a word with the boss, see if I can get you a couple, Komrade.

Now if only I could somehow get a class 3 tax stamp for a post -1986 automatic weapon...

**Dreadclaw69**

Vaktathi wrote:
Now if only I could somehow get a class 3 tax stamp for a post -1986 automatic weapon...

Set yourself up as a Mexican cartel

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:

You perfectly illustrate the bias of the West. When people with NATO gear appear on the Ukrainian side, they must be Ukrainian volunteers that have bought it on the internet. When people with Russian gear appear on the seperatist side, they must be Russian soldiers. Does it not occur to you that you can buy an entire Russian uniform, complete with every insignia you could possibly want on the internet also?

Well, when you question the prisoners, and they all say '76th Guards Air Assault Division'...

By the way, last I checked, they were the only unit i have ever heard of who received the Order of Suvorov for having done 'absolutely nothing''. They also lost 80 men 'on training exercises'. How the bodies ended up in the Ukraine is one of those mysteries that has never been explained.

That aside, the gear that is turning up in the Ukraine hasn't all been the old stuff that you can buy on the market. Believe me, I've checked, no one is selling T-90AMs atm. All you can get is the export model. (S/SM) so either these tanks are falling off trucks in Russia, or the Russian government is handing out toys.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Yes, like Hitler and Putin are the only leaders in all of world history to have ever done so... It is one of the most common casus belli.

Not always, but I'll give you this particular point is not uncommon.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Now they have warships

No, the black sea fleet remains property of Russia. However, they have seized over 50 Ukrainian vessels since this time last year.

Iron_Captain wrote:
and aircraft

Yes, according to both the Ukrainian government statements and the Separatist videos, yes they do. Hind in particular.

Iron_Captain wrote:
So every time a opposition figure is murdered and the murder is subsequently investigated by authorities, it makes the leader of the country in which that happened look like Hitler?

If he was the only one to have died mysteriously, no. However, he's the most recent of a fairly long string of Putin's critics to have suffered a severe decline in health.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Russia has always been threatening others to get its way, because Russia has more hard than soft power. Stalin, the Tsars and Sweden also threatened and even invaded Denmark. Were they all Hitlers too?

Stalin the argument can, and has on more than one occasion, been made, yes. The Tzars? Depending on which one, that comparison has, on occasion been made as well. Sweden, not so much.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Poland is likely the most invaded country in world history.

Actually, Afghanistan holds that title, iirc, but Iraq, the Balkans, and Poland are all contenders.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Yes, if you combine that with building extermination camps to exterminate entire ethnic groups. Those are things that were pretty much unique to Hitler,

No, they're not. The only arguably unique thing about them was that Hitler applied the assembly line to the process.

The US, Russia, Cambodia, North Korea, and China all used starvation and forced relocation. Anyone who resisted was shot.

Rwanda, the Ottoman Empire, Japan, Zanzibar, and Serbia opted for the more direct approach. The Germans tried this one originally and found it inefficient.

Iron_Captain wrote:

You eat food, sleep in a bed, like movies and are suspicous of Russian invasions. Those are some remarkable similarities, Adolf...

Except that there's a universe of difference between putting your boots on the same way and ordering troops into action.

**loki old fart**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

You perfectly illustrate the bias of the West. When people with NATO gear appear on the Ukrainian side, they must be Ukrainian volunteers that have bought it on the internet. When people with Russian gear appear on the seperatist side, they must be Russian soldiers. Does it not occur to you that you can buy an entire Russian uniform, complete with every insignia you could possibly want on the internet also?

Well, when you question the prisoners, and they all say '76th Guards Air Assault Division'...

By the way, last I checked, they were the only unit i have ever heard of who received the Order of Suvorov for having done 'absolutely nothing''. They also lost 80 men 'on training exercises'. How the bodies ended up in the Ukraine is one of those mysteries that has never been explained.

That aside, the gear that is turning up in the Ukraine hasn't all been the old stuff that you can buy on the market. Believe me, I've checked, no one is selling T-90AMs atm. All you can get is the export model. (S/SM) so either these tanks are falling off trucks in Russia, or the Russian government is handing out toys.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Yes, like Hitler and Putin are the only leaders in all of world history to have ever done so... It is one of the most common casus belli.

Not always, but I'll give you this particular point is not uncommon.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Now they have warships

No, the black sea fleet remains property of Russia. However, they have seized over 50 Ukrainian vessels since this time last year.

Iron_Captain wrote:
and aircraft

Yes, according to both the Ukrainian government statements and the Separatist videos, yes they do. Hind in particular.

Iron_Captain wrote:
So every time a opposition figure is murdered and the murder is subsequently investigated by authorities, it makes the leader of the country in which that happened look like Hitler?

If he was the only one to have died mysteriously, no. However, he's the most recent of a fairly long string of Putin's critics to have suffered a severe decline in health.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Russia has always been threatening others to get its way, because Russia has more hard than soft power. Stalin, the Tsars and Sweden also threatened and even invaded Denmark. Were they all Hitlers too?

Stalin the argument can, and has on more than one occasion, been made, yes. The Tzars? Depending on which one, that comparison has, on occasion been made as well. Sweden, not so much.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Poland is likely the most invaded country in world history.
Actually, Afghanistan holds that title, iirc, but Iraq, the Balkans, and Poland are all contenders.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Yes, if you combine that with building extermination camps to exterminate entire ethnic groups. Those are things that were pretty much unique to Hitler,

No, they're not. The only arguably unique thing about them was that Hitler applied the assembly line to the process.

The US, Russia, Cambodia, North Korea, and China all used starvation and forced relocation. Anyone who resisted was shot.

Rwanda, the Ottoman Empire, Japan, Zanzibar, and Serbia opted for the more direct approach. The Germans tried this one originally and found it inefficient.

Iron_Captain wrote:

You eat food, sleep in a bed, like movies and are suspicous of Russian invasions. Those are some remarkable similarities, Adolf...

Except that there's a universe of difference between putting your boots on the same way and ordering troops into action.

The Germans got the idea for concentration camps from us British (not one of our finest moments). We did it to the Boers, only we used disease to do our dirty work.

**Iron_Captain**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

You perfectly illustrate the bias of the West. When people with NATO gear appear on the Ukrainian side, they must be Ukrainian volunteers that have bought it on the internet. When people with Russian gear appear on the seperatist side, they must be Russian soldiers. Does it not occur to you that you can buy an entire Russian uniform, complete with every insignia you could possibly want on the internet also?

Well, when you question the prisoners, and they all say '76th Guards Air Assault Division'...

By the way, last I checked, they were the only unit i have ever heard of who received the Order of Suvorov for having done 'absolutely nothing''. They also lost 80 men 'on training exercises'. How the bodies ended up in the Ukraine is one of those mysteries that has never been explained.

It is easy to find 'Russian soldiers' that way. Dress a few guys up in Russian uniforms and have them say on camera they are Russian soldiers sent to invade Ukraine and have been captured. Voilà, Russian invasion.
The 76th Air Guards received the Order of Suvorov for the key role they played in the annexation of Crimea. Nothing mysterious about that. And for the claim that they lost 80 men, this is the first time I have heard that and I would like to see a credible source.

BaronIveagh wrote:
That aside, the gear that is turning up in the Ukraine hasn't all been the old stuff that you can buy on the market. Believe me, I've checked, no one is selling T-90AMs atm. All you can get is the export model. (S/SM) so either these tanks are falling off trucks in Russia, or the Russian government is handing out toys.

T-90s in Ukraine? Again, source please.
For the record, I do believe that Russia is secretly sending weapons to the seperatists. I just don't believe that they would send very modern stuff that could only come from the Russian army when they still have huge stores of old Soviet weapons that can also be found in Ukraine. Nor do I believe the Ukrainian claim that there are entire Russian tank divisions fighting in Ukraine. Why would Putin risk a lot by sending his own troops when he has plenty of locals and volunteers willing to fight for him while he can deny involvement?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Iron_Captain wrote:
Now they have warships

No, the black sea fleet remains property of Russia. However, they have seized over 50 Ukrainian vessels since this time last year.

Yes, those Ukrainian vessels have been seized by Russia. However they remain in Sevastopol and do not take part in the conflict. Not sure what your point is here anymore and how it relates to Hitler.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
and aircraft

Yes, according to both the Ukrainian government statements and the Separatist videos, yes they do. Hind in particular.

I highly doubt that. It is possible seperatists captured a few helicopters (they took an entire airbase in Crimea) but they lack the infrastructure necessary to support them. Whatever they may have is little compared to what the Ukrainian army has. If the seperatists had any significant air force (or air defenses) than how come the Ukrainian air force can bomb Donetsk and Lugansk at will? They have been bombing since the beginning of the conflict and lost relatively few aircraft. Again, I do not see your point here.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
So every time a opposition figure is murdered and the murder is subsequently investigated by authorities, it makes the leader of the country in which that happened look like Hitler?

If he was the only one to have died mysteriously, no. However, he's the most recent of a fairly long string of Putin's critics to have suffered a severe decline in health.

But supporters of Putin have been murdered too. In fact, more supporters of Putin have been murdered than critics. I wonder what that means? Whenever a critic of Putin is murdered, arrested or whatever, it is big news in the West and it always made to look like Putin is behind it, regardless of other reasons that person may have been arrested or murdered. People get arrested or murdered regardless of their political views.
Secondly, Putin critics have not been dying at any rate close to that of Hitler's critics. It is not like Putin persecutes his critics in any way remotely comparable to Hitler (assuming Putin does in fact persecute his critics, even though there is little reason for him to do so)

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Russia has always been threatening others to get its way, because Russia has more hard than soft power. Stalin, the Tsars and Sweden also threatened and even invaded Denmark. Were they all Hitlers too?

Stalin the argument can, and has on more than one occasion, been made, yes. The Tzars? Depending on which one, that comparison has, on occasion been made as well. Sweden, not so much.

So Sweden can threaten and invade Denmark at will, but when Stalin or the Tsars do that they are like Hitler? I wonder why is that? Is it because they are Russian?

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Yes, if you combine that with building extermination camps to exterminate entire ethnic groups. Those are things that were pretty much unique to Hitler,

No, they're not. The only arguably unique thing about them was that Hitler applied the assembly line to the process.

The US, Russia, Cambodia, North Korea, and China all used starvation and forced relocation. Anyone who resisted was shot.

Rwanda, the Ottoman Empire, Japan, Zanzibar, and Serbia opted for the more direct approach. The Germans tried this one originally and found it inefficient.

Hitler was the first to do so, and that is why this is the main thing Hitler is associated with. Putin is not doing anything like that and therefore is not like Hitler.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

You eat food, sleep in a bed, like movies and are suspicous of Russian invasions. Those are some remarkable similarities, Adolf...

Except that there's a universe of difference between putting your boots on the same way and ordering troops into action.

And what would that difference be? And do you think Barack Obama is also like Hitler for ordering troops into action?

**Vaktathi**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Now if only I could somehow get a class 3 tax stamp for a post -1986 automatic weapon...

Set yourself up as a Mexican cartel

I don't think I'd pass the interview

**AlmightyWalrus**

I think the fact that the last time Sweden fought Denmark was in the Napoleonic Wars might matter just a wee bit. We're over the whole invading our neighbours bit, Russia isn't.

**Vaktathi**

An interesting video from VICE on Ukraine's acquisition of 200 Humvee's.

Oddly editorial tone in this one that they typically haven't had before, but is interesting nonetheless.

https://news.vice.com/video/should-the-us-send-lethal-aid-to-ukraine

Also a good one on the religious happenings in the region and the apparent removal of non-Eastern-Orthodox churches

https://news.vice.com/video/secret-protestant-churches-in-donetsk-ukraines-religious-war

**Tyran**

Ukraine doesn't really need weapons, they already have a lot of them. What they need is training and a leadership that isn't idiotic.

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:
It is easy to find 'Russian soldiers' that way. Dress a few guys up in Russian uniforms and have them say on camera they are Russian soldiers sent to invade Ukraine and have been captured. Voilà, Russian invasion.
The 76th Air Guards received the Order of Suvorov for the key role they played in the annexation of Crimea. Nothing mysterious about that. And for the claim that they lost 80 men, this is the first time I have heard that and I would like to see a credible source.

While the Sunday Times of London, I can understand your denouncement as being 'western, I'm surprised Ekho St. Petersburg is not credible now.

After all:

Here's a picture of the unit driving 10km from the location on the Russian side of the border a few hours before hand.

And here's the captured vehicle on the other side of the boarder.

Notice the hasty and incomplete effort to paint over the markings. you might also notice that hte unit all use the same camouflage stencils, which are still visable under the quick repaint.

80 kia were reported both in a 'leaked' phone conversation between a hospitalized survivor of the engagement and another member of the 76th, and confirmed by the Committee of Soldiers’ Mothers.

**Iron_Captain**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
It is easy to find 'Russian soldiers' that way. Dress a few guys up in Russian uniforms and have them say on camera they are Russian soldiers sent to invade Ukraine and have been captured. Voilà, Russian invasion.
The 76th Air Guards received the Order of Suvorov for the key role they played in the annexation of Crimea. Nothing mysterious about that. And for the claim that they lost 80 men, this is the first time I have heard that and I would like to see a credible source.

While the Sunday Times of London, I can understand your denouncement as being 'western, I'm surprised Ekho St. Petersburg is not credible now.

After all:

Here's a picture of the unit driving 10km from the location on the Russian side of the border a few hours before hand.

And here's the captured vehicle on the other side of the boarder.

Notice the hasty and incomplete effort to paint over the markings. you might also notice that hte unit all use the same camouflage stencils, which are still visable under the quick repaint.

80 kia were reported both in a 'leaked' phone conversation between a hospitalized survivor of the engagement and another member of the 76th, and confirmed by the Committee of Soldiers’ Mothers.

Nice try, but those vehicles are not the same. The one in the first picture has ID №100, the one in the second has ID №275. You can see still see the number on the lower right part which I don't know the English word for. Notice that the vehicle in the first picture does not have numbers on that part, and also that those parts have different colour. The first vehicle also has identification numbers on the the two small hatches, which are absent on the second vehicle and have clearly not been painted over like the number on the right.
Of course, you could say it was not the vehicle on the first picture but another one of the vehicles in that column, but than you could just as well say it is a Ukrainian vehicle. Ukraine and Russia still use the same (Soviet) camouflage and markings for many of their BMDs. Also not that the vehicle in the second picture looks a lot more rusty and badly maintained than those in the first picture. Because of this and the fact that its identification numbers have almost entirely faded away, I would say it is an old Soviet vehicle that has been rusting in a depot for a very long time. It does not look like something you would see in Russian frontline units.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Cognitive dissonance in action. Also that's called a mud flap.

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Nice try, but those vehicles are not the same. The one in the first picture has ID №100, the one in the second has ID №275. You can see still see the number on the lower right part which I don't know the English word for. Notice that the vehicle in the first picture does not have numbers on that part, and also that those parts have different colour. The first vehicle also has identification numbers on the the two small hatches, which are absent on the second vehicle and have clearly not been painted over like the number on the right.
Of course, you could say it was not the vehicle on the first picture but another one of the vehicles in that column, but than you could just as well say it is a Ukrainian vehicle. Ukraine and Russia still use the same (Soviet) camouflage and markings for many of their BMDs. Also not that the vehicle in the second picture looks a lot more rusty and badly maintained than those in the first picture. Because of this and the fact that its identification numbers have almost entirely faded away, I would say it is an old Soviet vehicle that has been rusting in a depot for a very long time. It does not look like something you would see in Russian frontline units.

I like how you don't address the issue of using the same stencil. You notice that all the vehicles in picture one are not only using the same camouflage pattern, they're using the same stencil of that pattern. Further, they're all bearing the same tactical markings, which are not in use by the Ukrainians, IIRC.

Further, this has been id'd as fleet number 275 from the 1st Airborne Company of the military base 74268. Fifteen of the men named in documentation captured with the vehicle are known members, according to Russian bloggers, of the 76th, and served under the officer who's name's attached to the maintenance logs of the vehicle.

Also, that's not rust. You''ll notice your 'rust' is flowing against gravity in the back. The rust you get from long depot stays tends follow gravity. What that is is spilled fuel or hydraulic fluid and dirt. You'll notice on the left how it scraped off when someone stepped on the right hand side edge to step up into the vehicle.

Our second contestant, 234, this one more heavily damaged, from the same engagement, also listed believed to be from the 76th.

GRANAT-4 UAV, new in Russian service as of 2014, and produced exclusively in Russia by Izhmash Unmanned Aerial Systems LLC, this unit is property of the Southern Military District of the Russian Federation Armed Forces, who launched it, according to the extracted data, from near Rostov on Don. It was shot down while conducting aerial reconnaissance of Ukrainian forces positions in the area of Shchastia in Luhansk region. November 27th, 2014.

Normally, i wouldn't think too much of a T-64BV being involved but this particular unit had some interesting anomalies. Most particularly that it's production number, Ts11ET12109, never was issued to any Ukrainian unit, and it's battery was made in 2010, and a part of the inventory of the 205 Motor Rifle brigade of the Russian Federation, base no.74814.

**Iron_Captain**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

Nice try, but those vehicles are not the same. The one in the first picture has ID №100, the one in the second has ID №275. You can see still see the number on the lower right part which I don't know the English word for. Notice that the vehicle in the first picture does not have numbers on that part, and also that those parts have different colour. The first vehicle also has identification numbers on the the two small hatches, which are absent on the second vehicle and have clearly not been painted over like the number on the right.
Of course, you could say it was not the vehicle on the first picture but another one of the vehicles in that column, but than you could just as well say it is a Ukrainian vehicle. Ukraine and Russia still use the same (Soviet) camouflage and markings for many of their BMDs. Also not that the vehicle in the second picture looks a lot more rusty and badly maintained than those in the first picture. Because of this and the fact that its identification numbers have almost entirely faded away, I would say it is an old Soviet vehicle that has been rusting in a depot for a very long time. It does not look like something you would see in Russian frontline units.

I like how you don't address the issue of using the same stencil. You notice that all the vehicles in picture one are not only using the same camouflage pattern, they're using the same stencil of that pattern. Further, they're all bearing the same tactical markings, which are not in use by the Ukrainians, IIRC.

This camouflage stencil is an old Soviet one. It was used on vehicles in Afghanistan. You can find many vehicles in this camouflage all over the former USSR. The tactical markings are also Soviet. (which are actually the same as modern Russian markings). Soviet markings can still be seen on most older Ukrainian equipment, so it is not like this one looks out of place.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Further, this has been id'd as fleet number 275 from the 1st Airborne Company of the military base 74268. Fifteen of the men named in documentation captured with the vehicle are known members, according to Russian bloggers, of the 76th, and served under the officer who's name's attached to the maintenance logs of the vehicle.

ID'd by whom? There are many vehicles with number 275, I'd like to see more details.
Also, keep in mind that the documentation was 'captured' by the Ukrainians. Who is to say that it is genuine? It is not as if Ukraine is not waging a huge disinformation and propaganda campaign as part of their war effort, so I tend to be suspicious about anything they say. If everything the Ukrainians said would be true, than half of the entire Russian Army must be in Ukraine.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Also, that's not rust. You''ll notice your 'rust' is flowing against gravity in the back. The rust you get from long depot stays tends follow gravity. What that is is spilled fuel or hydraulic fluid and dirt. You'll notice on the left how it scraped off when someone stepped on the right hand side edge to step up into the vehicle.

I don't think we are talking about the same parts here.
Nonetheless, you won't vehicles badly maintained like this in a Guards division. Again, compare it to the vehicles you see in the first picture, there is a clear difference.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Our second contestant, 234, this one more heavily damaged, from the same engagement, also listed believed to be from the 76th.

Unfortenately, I can not see the rest of your pictures, so I can not comment on them, though I will note that a site called 'Euromaidan PR' is the farthest thing you could possibly be from a trustworthy and impartial source. You might just as well get your information from here: http://dnr-news.com/

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Unfortenately, I can not see the rest of your pictures, so I can not comment on them, though I will note that a site called 'Euromaidan PR' is the farthest thing you could possibly be from a trustworthy and impartial source. You might just as well get your information from here: http://dnr-news.com/

The same event was reported in several other sources, I had linked from there because they had nice, high res ones.

Same things, from a different site.

UAV

T-64BV

Could not find another shot of the BMP though, so, sorry, was a pic of a somewhat more smashed up BMP, same camo, same tactical markings, number 234.

As far as IDs go: the Russian military has denied it, but the Ukrainian military, former members of the 76th, and the newspapers around the base at Pskov all stated that they were, in fact, 76th guards vehicles. Reporters who covered the military funerals of the deceased soldiers were savagely beaten. So far, the names in the documents released by the Ukrainians have pretty much jived with a large group of mysteriously dead members of the unit, whose families, according to the Russian press, have not been at liberty to discuss what happened.

Let me ask the question, which is more likely: that Russian troops crossed the boarder, and got ambushed, then withdrew, ;leaving behind some men and equipment? or that the Ukrainians had two exact duplicates of the vehicles that a random Russian unit that happened to be near the boarder on the Russian side, and were able to miraculously predict what members of the unit would die under unusual circumstances in Russia, and that they could pull this whole thing off in the middle of fighting for Lutuhino.

If what you're saying is true, then Ukrainian intelligence needs to start using it's psychic powers to predict enemy movements rather than messing with random Russian units on the far side of the boarder.

http://tvrain.ru/articles/pskovskaja_gubernija_soobschila_o_gibeli_roty_desantnikov_v_ukraine-374888/

BTW: the prisoners taken have all been repatriated to Russia (according to Russian State TV). Seems that they all really were members of the 76th, but they remain officially to have never been to the Ukraine.

Here's an article I found interesting.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/19/russia-official-silence-for-families-troops-killed-in-ukraine

**Iron_Captain**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

Unfortenately, I can not see the rest of your pictures, so I can not comment on them, though I will note that a site called 'Euromaidan PR' is the farthest thing you could possibly be from a trustworthy and impartial source. You might just as well get your information from here: http://dnr-news.com/

The same event was reported in several other sources, I had linked from there because they had nice, high res ones.

Same things, from a different site.

UAV

T-64BV

Could not find another shot of the BMP though, so, sorry, was a pic of a somewhat more smashed up BMP, same camo, same tactical markings, number 234.

As far as IDs go: the Russian military has denied it, but the Ukrainian military, former members of the 76th, and the newspapers around the base at Pskov all stated that they were, in fact, 76th guards vehicles. Reporters who covered the military funerals of the deceased soldiers were savagely beaten. So far, the names in the documents released by the Ukrainians have pretty much jived with a large group of mysteriously dead members of the unit, whose families, according to the Russian press, have not been at liberty to discuss what happened.

Let me ask the question, which is more likely: that Russian troops crossed the boarder, and got ambushed, then withdrew, ;leaving behind some men and equipment? or that the Ukrainians had two exact duplicates of the vehicles that a random Russian unit that happened to be near the boarder on the Russian side, and were able to miraculously predict what members of the unit would die under unusual circumstances in Russia, and that they could pull this whole thing off in the middle of fighting for Lutuhino.

If what you're saying is true, then Ukrainian intelligence needs to start using it's psychic powers to predict enemy movements rather than messing with random Russian units on the far side of the boarder.

http://tvrain.ru/articles/pskovskaja_gubernija_soobschila_o_gibeli_roty_desantnikov_v_ukraine-374888/

BTW: the prisoners taken have all been repatriated to Russia (according to Russian State TV). Seems that they all really were members of the 76th, but they remain officially to have never been to the Ukraine.

Here's an article I found interesting.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/19/russia-official-silence-for-families-troops-killed-in-ukraine

Nice, thank you.
The UAV is not really any evidence of a Russian invasion, is it? It makes sense the Russian military would send drones to spy on the situation. After all, the US also often sends drones, that is no evidence the US is invading those countries either, right?
The tank looks like a regular old Soviet T-64. I can not see its production number or battery however, so it just looks like any other T-64 to me. Russia, however, does not use the T-64. There could still be a few ones in storage somewhere, and it is possible those were send to Ukraine, but a T-64 can not be evidence of involvement of Russian troops.
As for the BMP, if it had the same markings as the BMD in the first and second pictures you posted, that would not be strange as it was a common Soviet camouflage pattern and markings.

BaronIveagh wrote:
As far as IDs go: the Russian military has denied it, but the Ukrainian military,

Very reliable

BaronIveagh wrote:
former members of the 76th,

Who were the former servicemembers? Who were the reporters? How can I verify this story?

BaronIveagh wrote:
and the newspapers around the base at Pskov

What newspapers?

BaronIveagh wrote:
all stated that they were, in fact, 76th guards vehicles.

According to whom? A impartial source or one that has an interest in this conflict?

BaronIveagh wrote:
Reporters who covered the military funerals of the deceased soldiers were savagely beaten.

That sounds suspicious, but who is to say it has not been made up? Is there any evidence? Who were the reporters? Could they have had any political motives for making up such a story? I would like to hear more details before I can make a good conclusion for myself.

BaronIveagh wrote:
So far, the names in the documents released by the Ukrainians have pretty much jived with a large group of mysteriously dead members of the unit, whose families, according to the Russian press, have not been at liberty to discuss what happened.

So they found a document listing all dead members of a certain Russian unit? How suspicious. What is such a document doing on the front lines? Such a document should only be in the hands of divisional command, far behind the front lines, in Russia. And if they truly died while fighting in Ukraine, why report them at all? It is not as if the Russian military is known for its record keeping. Soldiers only die when the FSB says they can die. Otherwise they have just been 'transferred' and their deaths only become clear at the end of the conflict. That is how it normally goes.
If the Russian military is really fighting in the Ukraine, than why would they leave all these traces behind? And why they operate so amateuristic and completely different from their professional operation in Crimea? It is almost as if there are two different Russian armies. It does not make sense.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Let me ask the question, which is more likely: that Russian troops crossed the boarder, and got ambushed, then withdrew, ;leaving behind some men and equipment? or that the Ukrainians had two exact duplicates of the vehicles that a random Russian unit that happened to be near the boarder on the Russian side, and were able to miraculously predict what members of the unit would die under unusual circumstances in Russia, and that they could pull this whole thing off in the middle of fighting for Lutuhino.

You did not consider a third option: That the Ukrainians used one of their own old vehicles and fabricated evidence to show Russian troops in Ukraine as part of the propaganda effort for their own population and to get support in the West.
Of course, it is possible that members of the Russian military were delivering supplies to the seperatists and got ambushed, but for now, I think this third option the most likely.

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:

As for the BMP, if it had the same markings as the BMD in the first and second pictures you posted, that would not be strange as it was a common Soviet camouflage pattern and markings.

And had numbering designating it as part of the same unit.

Iron_Captain wrote:

What newspapers?

Псковская губерния for September 2nd of last year.

Well, among those hospitalized is the owner of the paper, who is a politician, one Lev Shlosberg, who, according to the hospital, was badly injured. Two reporters were attacked separately, trying to cover the funerals of Leonid Kichatkin and Alexander Osipov. Photos were taken of the Funeral, of the graves, etc. Now the graves have no markers at all.

Iron_Captain wrote:

Soldiers only die when the FSB says they can die. Otherwise they have just been 'transferred' and their deaths only become clear at the end of the conflict. That is how it normally goes.

and that's why Russia has organizations that try to keep track for families, particularly following Afghanistan. and that's how it used to go. Ask the US how hard it is to hide casualties these days.

Iron_Captain wrote:

If the Russian military is really fighting in the Ukraine, than why would they leave all these traces behind? And why they operate so amateuristic and completely different from their professional operation in Crimea?

Because Crimea was easy. it was a walk over. It's easy to not make mistakes when people are not shooting at you. it also didn't last very long. When you send men into a real war, you have messiness. You have dead bodies, prisoners, and wrecked vehicles. When it's right over the boarder, you have people asking questions. You have civilians getting under foot and seeing things they're not supposed to, and taking pictures! You have politicians and reporters asking awkward questions and, worse, doing research and poking holes in official stories.

It's easy to hide the bodies when they're nameless grunts with no ids on in Cambodia, or Colombia, or take your pick of godless hellholes on the other side of the world. It's harder when they're 20 miles from home, and people are posting the wallet contents from the KIAs on facebook. Or, worse, the families announcing the funerals on social media.

And that's just inside Russia.

**Iron_Captain**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

As for the BMP, if it had the same markings as the BMD in the first and second pictures you posted, that would not be strange as it was a common Soviet camouflage pattern and markings.

And had numbering designating it as part of the same unit.

That is not possible. Airborne troops do not have any BMPs. BMPs are way too heavy to throw out of aircraft.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

What newspapers?

Псковская губерния for September 2nd of last year.

Well, among those hospitalized is the owner of the paper, who is a politician, one Lev Shlosberg, who, according to the hospital, was badly injured. Two reporters were attacked separately, trying to cover the funerals of Leonid Kichatkin and Alexander Osipov. Photos were taken of the Funeral, of the graves, etc. Now the graves have no markers at all.

Ah, that is what I wanted to know. Lev Shlosberg is a politician of the liberal anti-Putinist party Yabloko. He would have a clear motive for making up or misrepresenting such a story. I am not saying he did, but it is possible. It would not be the first time liberals did something like that.
The problem is that all information that would indicate Russian soldiers are fighting in Ukraine I have seen so far comes from biased sources that have a clear interest in those stories.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

Soldiers only die when the FSB says they can die. Otherwise they have just been 'transferred' and their deaths only become clear at the end of the conflict. That is how it normally goes.

and that's why Russia has organizations that try to keep track for families, particularly following Afghanistan. and that's how it used to go. Ask the US how hard it is to hide casualties these days.

But as seen with the wars in Chechnya and Georgia, those organisations do not work very well. The covering up system has always worked well. Why would they suddenly stop using it? Why would they inform families and bring back bodies to Russia? It would be very easy not to notify anyone and bury the dead in Ukraine.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

If the Russian military is really fighting in the Ukraine, than why would they leave all these traces behind? And why they operate so amateuristic and completely different from their professional operation in Crimea?

Because Crimea was easy. it was a walk over. It's easy to not make mistakes when people are not shooting at you. it also didn't last very long. When you send men into a real war, you have messiness. You have dead bodies, prisoners, and wrecked vehicles. When it's right over the boarder, you have people asking questions. You have civilians getting under foot and seeing things they're not supposed to, and taking pictures! You have politicians and reporters asking awkward questions and, worse, doing research and poking holes in official stories.

That is not entirely what I meant. What I meant was: Why are we not seeing guys like this in Ukraine?

You could say they have changed into less suspicious uniforms, but why did they bother doing that if they are not even taking their markings off vehicles?
Also, if the Russian army is involved, than why do the seperatists have it so difficult? The Ukrainian army (if you can even call it that) is in a horrible state. The vast majority of their vehicles has not been maintained since 1991 and is inoperable, a significant part of their standing army has defected, taking equipment with it, they continue to have huge problems with desertion and finding enough conscripts, who are then rushed to the front without training. They even have trouble getting enough food and other essential supplies, as soldiers have had to beg for food from civilians. The only reason why this band of untrained rabble is doing so well is because their opponent is also a band of untrained rabble suffering even more shortages in manpower and heavy equipment, and not one of the strongest armies in the world.
If the Russian military was actually deployed to Ukraine in the numbers that are suggested, the situation would be very different, and not with the Ukrainian Army a few kilometers from Donetsk.

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:
He would have a clear motive for making up or misrepresenting such a story. I am not saying he did, but it is possible. It would not be the first time liberals did something like that.
The problem is that all information that would indicate Russian soldiers are fighting in Ukraine I have seen so far comes from biased sources that have a clear interest in those stories.

you haven;t noticed that at this point there's no impartial news? Every media source in Russia right now has a vested interest in either promoting or suppressing these stories?

Iron_Captain wrote:

But as seen with the wars in Chechnya and Georgia, those organisations do not work very well. The covering up system has always worked well. Why would they suddenly stop using it? Why would they inform families and bring back bodies to Russia? It would be very easy not to notify anyone and bury the dead in Ukraine.

I think the answer is quite obvious: Everyone got wise to how it worked because of the wars in Georgia and Chechnya. There was not a lot of back and forth action in South Ossetia. There is in the Ukraine. The longer something goes on, the harder it is to keep it under wraps.

Iron_Captain wrote:

You could say they have changed into less suspicious uniforms, but why did they bother doing that if they are not even taking their markings off vehicles?

I got the impression that the actions around 20 August of last year were somewhat impromptu. Remember at the same time as the 76th got hammered, another group of paratroopers 'lost their way' and crossed into the Ukraine as well.

Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, if the Russian army is involved, than why do the seperatists have it so difficult? The Ukrainian army (if you can even call it that) is in a horrible state. The vast majority of their vehicles has not been maintained since 1991 and is inoperable, a significant part of their standing army has defected, taking equipment with it, they continue to have huge problems with desertion and finding enough conscripts, who are then rushed to the front without training.

I've been watching the posted desertion numbers. It's hard to tell the reality there. The Ukrainians admit they have a problem with it, but the Russians over inflate it staggeringly (to the degree it reminds me of the US counting chickens as VC KIA). I also have to ask what you consider significant, btw. If you're referring to the RT thing about Ukrainian military crossing over into Russia to defect in their hundreds, btw, you'd be wrong, that story turned out to be untrue.

37% of those conscripted have failed to turn up. Again, that's not too bad for a Civil War. The reason neitehr side has won yet is the same old issue you run into in every civil war: the locals turn out with kitchen knives at night. (usually figuratively, but sometimes literally)

Iron_Captain wrote:
If the Russian military was actually deployed to Ukraine in the numbers that are suggested, the situation would be very different, and not with the Ukrainian Army a few kilometers from Donetsk.

Given the scope of the fighting, 15k men isn't that many.

**A Town Called Malus**

BaronIveagh wrote:

Iron_Captain wrote:
If the Russian military was actually deployed to Ukraine in the numbers that are suggested, the situation would be very different, and not with the Ukrainian Army a few kilometers from Donetsk.

Given the scope of the fighting, 15k men isn't that many.

Also, every time it seems that the Ukrainian forces are about to make meaningful gains in ground the separatists suddenly manage to launch a highly successful counter attack and regain that ground.

Also, you're assuming that Putin wants the separatists to "win". It is entirely possible that his plan is just to drag the fighting out, keeping the Ukrainians close to securing Donetsk but aplying the necessary force to prevent them from achieving that goal. This keeps Ukraine stuck in a messy civil war which will prevent them from being able to join the EU or NATO or whatever it is that Putin is scared of.