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2016/03/20 17:34:16
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Yaraton wrote: "There is no Fascism in Ukraine." (c) Any western politician.
In the early days of the war it was the Russians who were screaming that the Ukrainians were all Nazis, based on events in WWII. In response to this the West took that as propaganda. Russian propaganda then took to showing pictures of the Neo-Nazis, at which point things became confusing... See the pictures which were toted about Russian news sources weren't of Ukrainian Nazis, they were Russians.
There are Nazis on both sides. Hell did I not post on this subject only a few pages ago? Who the Nazis support varies. You've your straight up Nationalists. Then there's your odder type, who want to found a Fascist state. The latter, despite fighting the enemy, are also supported by foreign Neo-Nazis. Which is to say that Azov has had the leaders of the Pro-Russian Fascist groups join them in their rallies before.
So yes, obviously there are Nazis forming up both sides (let's not even get into how many in the Russian government are also at it). However, to say that the West haven't admitted to this isn't being a tad obtuse. In the political world we live in it'd be suicide to openly admit to supporting an extremist organisation. When I say this I'm not just referring to the West of course, or will we ignore that the brave Russian Nationalists which the Kremlin plays up are made up of similar extremists (or on a similar note pass by extremist movements in other countries which they've fostered). Its a fact of the Great Game to back whichever group will meet the needs of the time, of course the problem with that is having the foresight to put long term goals before short term ones.
2016/03/20 20:01:15
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
You won't get any from me. A major civil unrest on the territory with the main Russian Navy Black Sea Fleet base would attract some attention from the proper Russian Intelligence Services. How many were involved - never been disclosed.
So we're back to Whataboutism? Never mind the fact that there was a genocide going on.
Oh please... I like how everything that the West does is "democratic and good" and when it comes to Russia is "totalitarian and bad". The West have opened the Pandora Box and now they have to live with it. As for genocide, I can name at least a couple of other countries where it was happening and the West didn't give a damn. The only difference between those countries and Yugoslavia was the amount of money invested in breaking it apart, just like they do it now in Syria. Giving that the ukrainian neo-Nazis were planning to send the "caravans of friendship" with their armed thugs to show those Russians in Crime their place, I'd say the threat of genocide was real. The burning people in Odessa was a very vivid example what would happen if they are not stopped.
Strawman. I've never said that "the West", whatever that includes, only does things that are democratic and good.
Why does it matter that there were other countries where there were ongoing genocides? You're doubling down on the Whataboutism again. Whether or not the Rwandan genocide, for example, was going on and "the West's" lack of action there is entirely irrelevant to the fact that there was an actual genocide going on in Yugoslavia.
And yet when you talk to people from Yugoslavia, living in the West, they all say that they didn't have really big problems with each other until the Western Intelligence serves started financing the nationalistic elements through the "freedom and democracy" process. Somebody somewhere has decided that it's much better and more simple to keep nationalistic elites of the small countries under the his foot than allowed a "Europian USSR" to exist.
You didn't know what the Gulags were, and yet you would presume to compare the EU to the USSR and to lecture us on history? Further, no, not all people from what used to be Yugoslavia say the same thing, because they're people, not some monolithic entity.
You'll note that I'm not making personal attacks on you or calling your arguments "brain farts" or the like. I'm still going to insist on demanding an apology.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/03/21 16:03:57
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
In Ukraine, will start production of a new generation «Maluk» automatic rifle
In Ukraine, will start production of a new generation «Maluk» automatic rifle.
The «Maluk» automatic rifle have bullpup design and developed by Ukrainian State Enterprise «Krasylivsky Agregate Plant» of State Concern «Ukroboronprom».
The «Maluk» automatic rifle has had its recoil reduced by almost 50 percent as compared to that in the Kalashnikov rifle, and its design to allow the key operations – unlocking firing, removing and replacing the magazine and reloading – to be done with a single hand.
The Malyuk has a total weight of 3,2 kg without the magazine, it has a maximum range of 500 m and can be adapted for different types of caliber as 5.45, 7.62 x 39mm or 5.56 x 45 mm.
military-informant.com
Doomed to failure from the start. Ignoring the economic and political situation, what's the point? There's already a crappy Russian bullpup AK-74 conversion kit in use in Ukraine as it is. If they're that fixated on bullpups in AK caliburs then I'd note that the Tavor was licensed to the Ukrainians years ago. Other than for nationalistic pride, perhaps similar to Confederate gun manufacturers in the American Civil war, I see zero point in this thing.
2016/03/21 16:26:33
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
In Ukraine, will start production of a new generation «Maluk» automatic rifle
In Ukraine, will start production of a new generation «Maluk» automatic rifle.
The «Maluk» automatic rifle have bullpup design and developed by Ukrainian State Enterprise «Krasylivsky Agregate Plant» of State Concern «Ukroboronprom».
The «Maluk» automatic rifle has had its recoil reduced by almost 50 percent as compared to that in the Kalashnikov rifle, and its design to allow the key operations – unlocking firing, removing and replacing the magazine and reloading – to be done with a single hand.
The Malyuk has a total weight of 3,2 kg without the magazine, it has a maximum range of 500 m and can be adapted for different types of caliber as 5.45, 7.62 x 39mm or 5.56 x 45 mm.
military-informant.com
Doomed to failure from the start. Ignoring the economic and political situation, what's the point? There's already a crappy Russian bullpup AK-74 conversion kit in use in Ukraine as it is. If they're that fixated on bullpups in AK caliburs then I'd note that the Tavor was licensed to the Ukrainians years ago. Other than for nationalistic pride, perhaps similar to Confederate gun manufacturers in the American Civil war, I see zero point in this thing.
I highly doubt it is ever going into full production anyway. It is probably just part of a scheme to sluice away government subsidies to private bank accounts or some other corrupt gak. This bullpup rifle thing has been going on since 2003 without any real progress whatsoever. And it is nationalism of course: "Look! Ukraine of makings new gun! Ukraine stronk!" Also, it doesn't even look like it is an actual new gun. It just looks like a AK-74 had sex with a Tavor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/21 16:33:50
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2016/03/21 16:47:40
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
As the war started in Ukraine there was a WWII reenactment going on. Seemingly some of the stuff from that's been left in country, youknow, in case you were wondering. That's from one of the country's big armour plants. Presumably most of that stuff's in the field now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/23 20:41:56
2016/03/23 22:49:45
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
I wasn't asking you, was I? I know perfectly well how to use Google. All I wanted to hear from an American how he understands the meaning of "Chief Directorate of Camps".
Yaraton wrote: "There is no Fascism in Ukraine." (c) Any western politician.
The West is hypocritical. The West doesn't give a gak about human rights, freedom. democracy or whatever vague things it claims to believe in. All Western countries care for are their national interests. Just like Russia. The difference is that the West is so good at deceit it managed to deceive itself about it It is all a matter of keeping up appearances. The West will happily support nazis, terrorists and radical islamists etc. as long as they can somehow spin the story as those groups being "good guys" fighting the "bad guys" ( "bad guys" usually being whatever government the West has decided it doesn't like and wants to mess up this time). If it does come out those groups are actually quite bad themselves, they can always still say that it is just a minority and that most of them are still "good guys". And who is going to check?
Or we could accept that "the West" is not a homogenous monolith and that there are competing political forces that want different things, but then we'd have to stop assuming that the realist school of thought is absolute at all times, and we can't have that now, can we?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/03/26 11:38:15
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
You won't get any from me. A major civil unrest on the territory with the main Russian Navy Black Sea Fleet base would attract some attention from the proper Russian Intelligence Services. How many were involved - never been disclosed.
So we're back to Whataboutism? Never mind the fact that there was a genocide going on.
Oh please... I like how everything that the West does is "democratic and good" and when it comes to Russia is "totalitarian and bad". The West have opened the Pandora Box and now they have to live with it. As for genocide, I can name at least a couple of other countries where it was happening and the West didn't give a damn. The only difference between those countries and Yugoslavia was the amount of money invested in breaking it apart, just like they do it now in Syria. Giving that the ukrainian neo-Nazis were planning to send the "caravans of friendship" with their armed thugs to show those Russians in Crime their place, I'd say the threat of genocide was real. The burning people in Odessa was a very vivid example what would happen if they are not stopped.
Strawman. I've never said that "the West", whatever that includes, only does things that are democratic and good.
Why does it matter that there were other countries where there were ongoing genocides? You're doubling down on the Whataboutism again. Whether or not the Rwandan genocide, for example, was going on and "the West's" lack of action there is entirely irrelevant to the fact that there was an actual genocide going on in Yugoslavia.
The "West" is opposite of Russia, minus Asia, Africa and South America. In modern media, the "West" deemed to be "free and democratic" and an example of how all things should be.
Why is it important to know where genocide was happening and the West didn't give a damn about it? It is important to show the lying nature of the Western propaganda spread through the mass media about Russia and it's allies. It is important to show that while all sides during the war in Yugoslavia were committing the atrocities, only one side was found and proclaimed guilty of it by the West. Considering that the other sides of the conflict were financed, armed and supported politically by the West no wonder why only Serbian military personal was put on trial and therefore your moral stand of "But there was genocide happening which led to NATO involvement in the conflict" has no moral ground.
You didn't know what the Gulags were, and yet you would presume to compare the EU to the USSR and to lecture us on history? Further, no, not all people from what used to be Yugoslavia say the same thing, because they're people, not some monolithic entity.
Who told you that I didn't know what "G.U.Lag." was? Your vivid imagination? O..K. then.
And yes I would lecture you about the similarities of EU and the Hitlers "United Europe" and why USSR was also similar and different from EU, Its' called "freedom of speech". Look it up.
I'll direct you, for the second time, to my first post in this thread, all the way back from the murky pits of 2014:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: On the other hand, the opposition is partially neo-nazis as well. There's some rather unsavory types on both sides.
If only I knew what "both sides" mean. You mean the separatists parade at night with torches too and use WW2 Nazi symbols? Or you meant the invisible Russian Army, the Junta declared bitten in battles so many times already? Sorry, I didn't see any videos with goose stepping hordes of Russian soldiers in so called "ukraine"'. I'll be very thankful when you provide me with a link so I could educate myself.
Speaking at an annual televised press conference, Mr Putin denied that “regular forces” were involved in the conflict, but conceded that “people dealing with tasks…in the military sphere,” had been involved in the conflict.
“We never said that there weren’t people there dealing with certain tasks, including in the military sphere,” he said, when challenged by a Ukrainian journalist about two captured Russian officers currently held in Ukraine.
“But that doesn’t mean there are regular Russian forces there. Feel the difference,” he added.
So, you were saying..?
You'll note that I'm not making personal attacks on you or calling your arguments "brain farts" or the like.
You should try, it's so much fun.
I'm still going to insist on demanding an apology.
Read my previous post again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/26 11:39:59
Vaktathi wrote: [On top of him also being responsible for the deaths of millions of citizens in purges and Gulags.
What's "Gulag"?
Later context has made clear that you meant to ask what Vaktathi's understanding of the Gulags were, but the way you posted it it looked like a question about what the concept itself meant.
Why is it important to know where genocide was happening and the West didn't give a damn about it? It is important to show the lying nature of the Western propaganda spread through the mass media about Russia and it's allies.
I'm not going to deny that there's a disturbing tendency in Western discourse to assume that the West is right and everyone else is wrong; it's the entire point of post-colonial theory after all. That said, I'm sure you have some examples of this "Western propaganda"?
And yes I would lecture you about the similarities of EU and the Hitlers "United Europe" and why USSR was also similar and different from EU, Its' called "freedom of speech". Look it up.
Freedom of speech regulates the relationship between states and the speech of its citizens. It has absolutely nothing to do with private exchanges, which you'd known if you'd taken your own advice and looked it up. Further, that's a nice Godwin you've got going there. Hitler and Stalin rounded up political enemies (and loads of others, obviosuly) and shipped them off to camps to die. I've yet to see organized, large-scale incarceration of political dissidents in the EU, let alone genocide. The comparison is silly, at best.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: On the other hand, the opposition is partially neo-nazis as well. There's some rather unsavory types on both sides.
If only I knew what "both sides" mean. You mean the separatists parade at night with torches too and use WW2 Nazi symbols? Or you meant the invisible Russian Army, the Junta declared bitten in battles so many times already? Sorry, I didn't see any videos with goose stepping hordes of Russian soldiers in so called "ukraine"'. I'll be very thankful when you provide me with a link so I could educate myself.
I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make it drink. You'll note that the "sides" I was referring to in my quote was the Maidan movement and the then-government of Ukraine under Yanukovych, not Ukraine and Russia. The unsavory types on the government's side ought to be blatantly obvious, with events like snipers opening fire on protesters. If nothing else, the fact that criminal charges immediately were filed against Yulia Tymoshenko and got her incarcerated is telling. I can understand Yanukovych being paranoid, seeing as he's lived through poisoning attempts, but that is not a proper way for a democracy to function.
Speaking at an annual televised press conference, Mr Putin denied that “regular forces” were involved in the conflict, but conceded that “people dealing with tasks…in the military sphere,” had been involved in the conflict.
“We never said that there weren’t people there dealing with certain tasks, including in the military sphere,” he said, when challenged by a Ukrainian journalist about two captured Russian officers currently held in Ukraine.
“But that doesn’t mean there are regular Russian forces there. Feel the difference,” he added.
So, you were saying..?
Since we're selectively quoting now:
But during a television phone-in in April, Mr Putin U-turned, saying “of course our troops stood behind Crimea's self-defence forces
You'll note that I'm not making personal attacks on you or calling your arguments "brain farts" or the like.
You should try, it's so much fun.
Even if we ignore that such an action would be against the tenents of this forum, I'd rather not. I don't agree with much of what you say, but I'm not going to pretend that you're not making a coherent argument for the sake of making myself feel better.
Ignoring the current rise in Russian military spending nonsense and the number of European Visas submitted by Ukrainians being blocked compared to Russians, how about more tanks?
Looks like someone's had the idea to retrofit more T-72s instead of all the T-64s that litter the country finally.
Ukraine is upgrading its antiquated T-72 tanks to meet NATO standards by fitting them out as the PT-91 "Twardy," Poland's main battle tank. It features advanced armor and a more powerful engine. Although the tanks are not in Ukrainian army service they are used in reserve.
End Of The Line
After Russia presented its state-of-the-art Armata battle tank last year, Ukrainians ridiculed it on social media. "This is a coffin on treads," blogger Mikola Gritsenko wrote on Facebook. Ukraine plans to sell its rival tank, the BM Oplot, for $4.9 million to overseas clients. The price tag on an Armata is about $7.8 million, although no export customers have been lined up. The first exports are planned for 2020, according to Russia's Military Industrial Commission.
Has the Armata even seen combat, or are the Russians content to just parade the things about all day? At least the Oblot has seen combat.
OT, I can that my own Ukrainian tanks' green's a bit too dark. :(
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/26 15:47:49
2016/03/26 15:49:28
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
I'm fairly confident that Russia knows how to build a decent tank. I'd trust Russian expertise over Ukrainian one on that field every day, at any rate.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/03/26 15:49:41
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
I don't think it has. There's thus far been no situation where the Armata could realistically be deployed. Besides, I think they've only made like 2 dozen of the chassis' thus far in two or three of the configurations intended for the platform (which include personnel carriers and such). Maybe if things heat up in the ME, the Armata might end up there but not for a little while.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/26 15:50:39
As far as I can tell the Russians only deployed their older tanks in Syria. Unless someone can contradict me those seen use protecting the airfields rather than being used in many actual battles.
I'll eat my boot in ten years when those things are tested (with Russia's war economy they'll have plenty of opportunities). Right now though, not to say a bad word about the thing (there's worse tanks out there which see actual use...), nobody knows what they'll be like till they see actual use. I just wonder how efficient they'll be for air transport, which the West's tanks are optimized for. Then again, Russia doesn't really fight anyone who doesn't share a border as them.
Heh, they're getting like the Israelis. If you don't have to transport a vehicle half way around the world then you can make it as big and heavy as you like. ...Though the Israelis learned the issue with that when they tried selling their APCs to the United States and South America (the latter failed them because they were so heavy they sunk into the jungle mud).
From a gaming perspective, at least the Russians are making it easy to source minis of that thing in 28mm.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/26 15:58:40
2016/03/26 16:18:39
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Wyrmalla wrote: As far as I can tell the Russians only deployed their older tanks in Syria. Unless someone can contradict me those seen use protecting the airfields rather than being used in many actual battles.
The Armata is probably still undergoing trials and may not be ready yet for combat service. That, and the Russians still have hordes of older tanks, so why risk the new shiny in a conflict where it is arguably overkill?
It's easy to theorize that the Armata is a bust when it's never seen a fight, but people said the same thing about the Abrams before Desert Storm (the 80s) and the Abrams ended up a beast. You never really know until the first shots are fired and bounce of the armor like a paint ball
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/26 16:19:17
I'm not going to deny that there's a disturbing tendency in Western discourse to assume that the West is right and everyone else is wrong; it's the entire point of post-colonial theory after all.
God, don't I know it. I'm sitting here right now trying to write a briefing for some politicians and am pulling my hair out as the bosses want it to be a non-informative puff piece to make the people involved feel good, rather than use the opportunity to point out how the policies in question have failed, and are still failing.
You want how clueless they can be: "Well , who are their heroes' was brought up at the meeting. I had a very hard time not saying 'The people who murder your soldiers and police.'.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2016/03/26 17:27:48
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Wyrmalla wrote: As far as I can tell the Russians only deployed their older tanks in Syria. Unless someone can contradict me those seen use protecting the airfields rather than being used in many actual battles.
The Armata is probably still undergoing trials and may not be ready yet for combat service. That, and the Russians still have hordes of older tanks, so why risk the new shiny in a conflict where it is arguably overkill?
It's easy to theorize that the Armata is a bust when it's never seen a fight, but people said the same thing about the Abrams before Desert Storm (the 80s) and the Abrams ended up a beast. You never really know until the first shots are fired and bounce of the armor like a paint ball
Another thing to consider is that the Armata is currently being outfitted with state of the art Active Protection systems.
I'm not going to deny that there's a disturbing tendency in Western discourse to assume that the West is right and everyone else is wrong; it's the entire point of post-colonial theory after all.
God, don't I know it. I'm sitting here right now trying to write a briefing for some politicians and am pulling my hair out as the bosses want it to be a non-informative puff piece to make the people involved feel good, rather than use the opportunity to point out how the policies in question have failed, and are still failing.
You want how clueless they can be: "Well , who are their heroes' was brought up at the meeting. I had a very hard time not saying 'The people who murder your soldiers and police.'.
I wasn't asking you, was I? I know perfectly well how to use Google. All I wanted to hear from an American how he understands the meaning of "Chief Directorate of Camps".
Then you should have asked for that. I don't think I need to lecture you on English language, but asking "What's Gulag" means you are asking what "Gulag" is, not how someone understands the meaning of "Chief directorate of camps" ( I highly doubt most Americans know what Gulag stands for anyway). You should have been more specific.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/26 17:39:25
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2016/03/26 23:05:21
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Iron_Captain wrote: I highly doubt most Americans know what Gulag stands for anyway).
And here I always thought it was an acronym for Main Camp Administration. In the US and West the term for it was popularized by The Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn.
Iron_Captain wrote: I highly doubt most Americans know what Gulag stands for anyway).
And here I always thought it was an acronym for Main Camp Administration. In the US and West the term for it was popularized by The Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn.
It does. But is a lot of variation in how you can translate Russian words. "Main Camp Administration" is a good translation as it covers the meaning, as is "Chief Directorate of Camps". In Russian, GULag stands for ''Glavnoye upravleniye lagerej'', which I would translate to ''Head administration of camps". The root "glav" in glavnoye literally means head, but it is often translated to chief, main or some other English word that covers the meaning in this sense. Upravleniye can translate to administration, but also directorate or management. is made up of the root "pravo" which has a meaning of law or right and the prefix '"u" which conveys "awayness". I guess you could literally translate it to "where rules go from" or something like that, so administration and directorate both cover the meaning. Lager is simply a loanword from German which means camp (In German it also often means storage). So yeah, pretty much any translation that covers the meaning of the Russian phrase would be correct.
Gulag Archipelago was a good book. We had to read it in school. It always surprises me that people in Western countries are interested in Russian literature, considering that they barely seem to read their own The title doesn't translate really well into English though (it rhymes in Russian).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/27 00:27:30
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2016/03/27 01:06:04
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
There's quite a few books from Russia quite famous in the West. Doctor Zhivago, War and Peace, the previously mentioned Gulag Archipelago, and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (an ironic one really ) to name a few.
Most Russian books familiar to the west today are from the pre-Cold War era for what are probably obvious reasons. Also, we read plenty of literature in the west It's just that 90% of everything we make is crud
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/27 01:06:17
Iron_Captain wrote: It always surprises me that people in Western countries are interested in Russian literature, considering that they barely seem to read their own
It's true of most imported literature. It costs money to get it translated, so they tend to only bring the good stuff. I'll be generous and say that only 75% of what you read in a given country written by it's native writers is crap.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2016/03/27 14:40:42
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Of the recently imported translated stuff which I've read, I've taken to having a scoring system. There should be at least one dig at the US or racist comment without any context. I'm looking at you The Night Watch, Metro 2033 and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (though the later's two's writers come from all over, and Metro 2034 subverts racist expectations a tad with its example).
2016/03/30 01:30:17
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
Later context has made clear that you meant to ask what Vaktathi's understanding of the Gulags were, but the way you posted it it looked like a question about what the concept itself meant.
I know what I was asking. The more important part is was I asking you or somebody else? Perhaps I was asking a specific question to a specific person to lay proper foundation to deliver a fatal blow to what I consider a complete nonsense. I bet you never thought of that.
I'm not going to deny that there's a disturbing tendency in Western discourse to assume that the West is right and everyone else is wrong; it's the entire point of post-colonial theory after all. That said, I'm sure you have some examples of this "Western propaganda"?
I am yet to see any Western media or a government agency to make a positive and informative statement about Russia. I think we need the End of the World type of scenario to see that happened.
Prime example of lies:
Freedom of speech regulates the relationship between states and the speech of its citizens. It has absolutely nothing to do with private exchanges, which you'd known if you'd taken your own advice and looked it up. Further, that's a nice Godwin you've got going there. Hitler and Stalin rounded up political enemies (and loads of others, obviosuly) and shipped them off to camps to die. I've yet to see organized, large-scale incarceration of political dissidents in the EU, let alone genocide. The comparison is silly, at best.
"Freedom of speech is the right to communicate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship." It has nothing to between the people and the government, it is about people expressing themselves and the government protecting that right. You should look it up.
I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make it drink. You'll note that the "sides" I was referring to in my quote was the Maidan movement and the then-government of Ukraine under Yanukovych, not Ukraine and Russia. The unsavory types on the government's side ought to be blatantly obvious, with events like snipers opening fire on protesters. If nothing else, the fact that criminal charges immediately were filed against Yulia Tymoshenko and got her incarcerated is telling. I can understand Yanukovych being paranoid, seeing as he's lived through poisoning attempts, but that is not a proper way for a democracy to function.
which was known for quite a while in the Russian press but was lied about in the Western media in the beginning of the Juntas takeover. Refer to my statement about anti-Russian propaganda campaign.
Thirdly, charges were filed against Tymoshenko because she is a thief and corrupt politician who stole tens of millions dollars from her people while being the Deputy Prime Minister for fuel and energy in the and then as the Prime Minister . Forth, Yanukovych never been poisoned, you are talking about his predecessor - Yushchenko who came to power in the nationalist coup ("Orange revolution") but failed as a president due to the corruption scandals and lost fair and square to Yanukovych. Your grip on the modern history is rather... patchy, to say the least.
Since we're selectively quoting now:
But during a television phone-in in April, Mr Putin U-turned, saying “of course our troops stood behind Crimea's self-defence forces
I don't see how undercover SF operators and military intelligence agents cease to be "troops". Your quote doesn't contradict what I said previously and thus irrelevant.
Even if we ignore that such an action would be against the tenents of this forum, I'd rather not. I don't agree with much of what you say, but I'm not going to pretend that you're not making a coherent argument for the sake of making myself feel better.
Oh well, at least I've tried. Don't say I didn't offer.
Nope. Apology still expected. Civility in discussion is not optional.
I will apologize when I see that I was wrong. Right now it's not the case.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Murdered: Lawyer for Russian fighter kidnapped, 'drugged, wired to a bomb' in Ukraine
Aleksandrov was defended at the ongoing trial by lawyer Yury Grabovsky. He went missing on March 6 in Kiev and found dead on Friday. Investigators say he was kidnapped and later killed.
The lawyer’s body was found buried in an abandoned orchard near the town of Zhashkov about 100 km south of the Ukrainian capital, Ukraine’s chief military prosecutor, Anatoly Matios, told the media. Grabovsky’s grave was found after investigators followed a lead from one of his suspected killers.
The investigators say that Grabovsky was kidnapped in Kiev, transported to Odessa, a port city in southern Ukraine, and later to Zhashkov. The abductors said they used an ankle bracelet rigged with explosives to keep their victim compliant.
Slain lawyer for Russian fighter ‘promised’ to give up case in video released by Ukraine prosecutor
The video filmed with a mobile phone shows seemingly frazzled Grabovsky promising an unknown person to give up his case defending Russian Aleksandr Aleksandrov, who had been charged with involvement in terrorism activity in Ukraine.
“I promise and oblige to stop legal aid to the accused,” Grabovsky says in the video. When the person behind the camera asks the lawyer why he has made such a decision, Grabovsky answers: “I find it impossible to further defend him in this case.”
“Have you realized [your] mistake?” the person with a male voice then asks the lawyer, who answers positively. The video finishes with a “thank you” from the unknown interrogator.
Having presented the video at a briefing on Tuesday, Ukraine’s military prosecutor Anatoly Matios said the investigators came in possession of it through access to iCloud, registered under the name of one of the killers. He added that there are several more videos, but refused to comment further.
“We can see that [Grabovsky] made this statement against his own will. It is obvious that any person can be forced into saying whatever [another] one likes,” Aleksandrov’s new lawyer, Valentin Rybin, told TASS news agency.
The prosecutor has previously said that the slain lawyer had been possibly kept drugged by his abductors prior to his murder.
Murdered: Lawyer for Russian fighter kidnapped, 'drugged, wired to a bomb' in Ukraine
Aleksandrov was defended at the ongoing trial by lawyer Yury Grabovsky. He went missing on March 6 in Kiev and found dead on Friday. Investigators say he was kidnapped and later killed.
The lawyer’s body was found buried in an abandoned orchard near the town of Zhashkov about 100 km south of the Ukrainian capital, Ukraine’s chief military prosecutor, Anatoly Matios, told the media. Grabovsky’s grave was found after investigators followed a lead from one of his suspected killers.
The investigators say that Grabovsky was kidnapped in Kiev, transported to Odessa, a port city in southern Ukraine, and later to Zhashkov. The abductors said they used an ankle bracelet rigged with explosives to keep their victim compliant.
Slain lawyer for Russian fighter ‘promised’ to give up case in video released by Ukraine prosecutor
The video filmed with a mobile phone shows seemingly frazzled Grabovsky promising an unknown person to give up his case defending Russian Aleksandr Aleksandrov, who had been charged with involvement in terrorism activity in Ukraine.
“I promise and oblige to stop legal aid to the accused,” Grabovsky says in the video. When the person behind the camera asks the lawyer why he has made such a decision, Grabovsky answers: “I find it impossible to further defend him in this case.”
“Have you realized [your] mistake?” the person with a male voice then asks the lawyer, who answers positively. The video finishes with a “thank you” from the unknown interrogator.
Having presented the video at a briefing on Tuesday, Ukraine’s military prosecutor Anatoly Matios said the investigators came in possession of it through access to iCloud, registered under the name of one of the killers. He added that there are several more videos, but refused to comment further.
“We can see that [Grabovsky] made this statement against his own will. It is obvious that any person can be forced into saying whatever [another] one likes,” Aleksandrov’s new lawyer, Valentin Rybin, told TASS news agency.
The prosecutor has previously said that the slain lawyer had been possibly kept drugged by his abductors prior to his murder.
Yaraton wrote: Perhaps I was asking a specific question to a specific person to lay proper foundation to deliver a fatal blow to what I consider a complete nonsense. I bet you never thought of that.
Perhaps this is a lot of retroactive ass covering for having made yourself look like a moron instead? I bet you never thought of that.
I don't see how undercover SF operators and military intelligence agents cease to be "troops".
The Black Sea Fleet got it's medals for involvement, and we have their first hand accounts of marching in and occupying areas, so.... I'll say it was probably more than just some operatives and agitators.
Interestingly, and this is most likely an oversight, but the medal states Feb 20th as the beginning of the Russian campaign to return Crimea.
Wasn't that the date that mystery snipers opened fire on protestors and started that messy rioting that overthrew the then government of the Ukraine?
Fantasy writers are not "liars", they have vivid imagination.
And denial isn't just a river in Egypt. I'm sure if you were a Hitler fanboy rather than a Stalin one, we'd be hearing what vivid imaginations Jews have.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
