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Oh yes because the soviets were paragons for clean and factual record keeping.

 Ustrello wrote:
Oh yes because the soviets were paragons for clean and factual record keeping.

Yes they were. But of course as the expert on Russian bureacracy you are, you should already know that.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Oh yes because the soviets were paragons for clean and factual record keeping.

Yes they were. But of course as the expert on Russian bureacracy you are, you should already know that.

They weren't, especially under Stalin.

Throughout the Soviet Unions history many people in charge of things like agriculture and factories lied about their output in order to meet impossible targets set by the Communist party so that they wouldn't be fired and/or shot.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Oh yes because the soviets were paragons for clean and factual record keeping.

Yes they were. But of course as the expert on Russian bureacracy you are, you should already know that.

They weren't, especially under Stalin.

Throughout the Soviet Unions history many people in charge of things like agriculture and factories lied about their output in order to meet impossible targets set by the Communist party so that they wouldn't be fired and/or shot.

So? Factory managers lying about production has zero relevance to the state keeping extensive records on anything. Also, production targets were set by Gosplan, not the Communist Party.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Oh yes because the soviets were paragons for clean and factual record keeping.

Yes they were. But of course as the expert on Russian bureacracy you are, you should already know that.

They weren't, especially under Stalin.

Throughout the Soviet Unions history many people in charge of things like agriculture and factories lied about their output in order to meet impossible targets set by the Communist party so that they wouldn't be fired and/or shot.

So? Factory managers lying about production has zero relevance to the state keeping extensive records on anything. Also, production targets were set by Gosplan, not the Communist Party.

Because if the records for factory output aren't reliable, what makes you think the other records are?

 Yaraton wrote:

The text reads: "Ukrainian Division Galicia, they were defending Ukraine"

Based on the sheer number of Ukrainians killed, they were. Remember that which one, Stalin or Hitler, slaughtered more Ukrainians depends on who's estimate you read. They both hover around 7 million. It was just that Stalin had ALREADY done it, when the Nazis arrived. A drowning man will grab any oar he's offered.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, to those saying that the Soviets did not keep good records, the Soviets were actually notoriously for keeping ridiculously detailed and extensive records on pretty much every subject imaginable.

Unfortunately, as we've seen with the records of the Great Patriotic War, they have a point. Just among different sets of official records, the number of dead by war's end varies by up to 3 million KIA. That's not civilian dead, that's the Red Army etc. Where one would hope the most accurate record is.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Oh yes because the soviets were paragons for clean and factual record keeping.

Yes they were. But of course as the expert on Russian bureacracy you are, you should already know that.

They weren't, especially under Stalin.

Throughout the Soviet Unions history many people in charge of things like agriculture and factories lied about their output in order to meet impossible targets set by the Communist party so that they wouldn't be fired and/or shot.

So? Factory managers lying about production has zero relevance to the state keeping extensive records on anything. Also, production targets were set by Gosplan, not the Communist Party.

Because if the records for factory output aren't reliable, what makes you think the other records are?

The records are reliable. They indicate the amount of goods thought to have been produced and the amount planners and government officials used to make policy and calculate their plans, and most of them were based on accurate data. Just because some of the records were based on false information doesn't mean the entire Soviet archives are unreliable. I am pretty sure there are plenty of records in the US archives based on false information. Does that mean the US government is an unreliable record-keeper? No.
And besides, Gosplan records are completely unrelated and thus irrelevant to the records of the secret services. That is a false equation.

But if you want to think that the NKVD was like some factory managers and only shot half of the people they mention in their records then by all means, go ahead.


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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Yaraton wrote:

The text reads: "Ukrainian Division Galicia, they were defending Ukraine"

Based on the sheer number of Ukrainians killed, they were. Remember that which one, Stalin or Hitler, slaughtered more Ukrainians depends on who's estimate you read. They both hover around 7 million. It was just that Stalin had ALREADY done it, when the Nazis arrived. A drowning man will grab any oar he's offered.

Stalin hadn't killed any Galicians before WW2. The Galicians hadn't even been part of Ukraine or the USSR until 1939. The only reasons the Galicians sided with Hitler over Stalin is because Hitler offered them a chance to get rid of the Jews and Poles. Once they got rid of the Jews and Poles, Galicia could become a land for Ukrainians. And as can be seen from the present-day situation in Galicia, their plan worked perfectly. Stalin having killed Ukrainians was not at all an issue at the time, as Stalin never specifically targeted Ukrainians apart from other ethnic groups.

And just to say something positive about Stalin and Ukraine, 1/3rd of the entire budget for development of the USSR after WW2 went into development of Ukraine. Living conditions in Ukraine were greatly improved under Stalin, a fact that nowadays is too often forgotten.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, to those saying that the Soviets did not keep good records, the Soviets were actually notoriously for keeping ridiculously detailed and extensive records on pretty much every subject imaginable.

Unfortunately, as we've seen with the records of the Great Patriotic War, they have a point. Just among different sets of official records, the number of dead by war's end varies by up to 3 million KIA. That's not civilian dead, that's the Red Army etc. Where one would hope the most accurate record is.

I know a few people who have written PhD dissertations and had to go to russia to do research that can attest to how terrible record keeping was during the soviet union iron and I believe them much more than you.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Stalin having killed Ukrainians was not at all an issue at the time, as Stalin never specifically targeted Ukrainians apart from other ethnic groups.

I know we've had the discussion earlier in the thread already, but could you at least throw in the caveat that the Holodomor happened? I don't think any of us are feeling like bashing our heads against each other over it again, but at least concede that there is an argument that Stalin did target Ukrainians, and then we can go on yelling about how much of it was man-made and how much was natural.

From what I understand about Holodomor it was less targeted genocide and more genocide by incompetence.

Which in some ways it is worse.

 Tyran wrote:
From what I understand about Holodomor it was less targeted genocide and more genocide by incompetence.

Which in some ways it is worse.

There's an argument to be made that it was a targetted effort, and there's an argument to be made that it was mostly incompetence and bad luck, but pretending that one side is flat-out wrong in this case does nobody any favours.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Stalin having killed Ukrainians was not at all an issue at the time, as Stalin never specifically targeted Ukrainians apart from other ethnic groups.

I know we've had the discussion earlier in the thread already, but could you at least throw in the caveat that the [urlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor]Holodomor[/url] happened? I don't think any of us are feeling like bashing our heads against each other over it again, but at least concede that there is an argument that Stalin did target Ukrainians, and then we can go on yelling about how much of it was man-made and how much was natural.

The Holdomor happened. That is indisputable fact. Whether Stalin intended to cause it or not is probably unknowable, but his policies at the least made it a lot worse, so you can say that Stalin was (partially) responsible. And of course, the Holodomor took place in Eastern Ukraine and Western Russia, so Ukrainians were one of the most affected groups. So if you want to believe that the Holodomor was caused by Stalin on purpose, then you could definitely make an argument that it targeted Ukrainians. There is definitely a good, reasonable argument to be made that Stalin wanted to wipe out the traditional Cossack-style small farmers of the area so he could proceed with his agricultural reforms. What the Holodomor was not however, is a genocide. At least not a genocide in the sense of an attempt to wipe out Ukrainians as specific ethnic group (like what is often ironically claimed by modern Western Ukrainians and russophobes who then proceed to blame the modern Russian state and people for it for some reason). The Holodomor hit both Ukrainians and Russians, all people in the area regardless of ethnicity.


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 Ustrello wrote:
I know a few people who have written PhD dissertations and had to go to russia to do research that can attest to how terrible record keeping was during the soviet union iron and I believe them much more than you.

Do you really think Westerners get to sniff around freely in Soviet records? Of course not.
Researchers will always have to deal with incomplete records because most of the archives are kept locked away. If you go as researcher to Russia and request some records for your research, you can bet that the secret services first review every page you requested and remove everything that might somehow be politically sensitive. Researchers are therefore not an accurate way to measure the completeness of Soviet archives.
The bureacracy in the Soviet Union and Russia is notoriously huge. It is impossible for someone who has never lived in Russia to imagine, but it is an absolute nightmare. Like forms have to be filled in and stamped even for simple stuff like taking a taxi or getting your clothes dry cleaned. Every single little detail is recorded. Now if even general society works in that way, how do you imagine the government works? Especially the secret services, with their control fetish. All those forms have to stay somewhere...

One went to the st Petersburg national library and it took him an hour everday to just get into the library because of the red tape and he was still able to get almost 20 thousands pages of material. And another one was able to bribe his way into the kgb archive. So no you are still wrong

Besides the famine, it was also a WW2 ... in which Ukraine has suffered more than others. But why now ukrainian ultranationalist's anger directed at Russia, rather than Germany, for example? It's simple: because it is necessary for the CIA! For 20 years a lot of money and effort has been spent for this purpose. Skinheads in Moscow and St. Petersburg - it is also the CIA work.
To blame the CIA. Why Russia "flexing its muscles"? Because the US still considers Russia as an enemy? Why?
Ukrainians fooled. What do they have? What they expected? America will help them capture Moscow? What kind of kindergarten is that

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Besides the famine, it was also a WW2 ... in which Ukraine has suffered more than others. But why now ukrainian ultranationalist's anger directed at Russia, rather than Germany, for example? It's simple: because it is necessary for the CIA! For 20 years a lot of money and effort has been spent for this purpose. Skinheads in Moscow and St. Petersburg - it is also the CIA work.
To blame the CIA. Why Russia "flexing its muscles"? Because the US still considers Russia as an enemy? Why?
Ukrainians fooled. What do they have? What they expected? America will help them capture Moscow? What kind of kindergarten is that

That's a...generous estimating of the CIA's capabilities and competence.

Even if we assume that the CIA is behind this...all in a foreign nation on the other side of the planet for multiple decades in a state that has far too much instability to do anything consistent in, to what point and purpose?

I mean, consiracy theories are amusing, but we're assuming Illuminati levels of conspiracy theory here. Little/no evidence, little/no mistakes or leaks that would compromise such a mission over 20+ years, massive assumptions of incredible capability and competence, a requirement of a tremendous amount of resources, and tremendous projections of supposed objectives (taking Moscow...really?), all over a region of strictly 2nd tier importance to US foreign policy of the last two decades...

It's interesting that the "CIA" is always behind everything Russia perceives as against it's interests. If the CIA really were that powerful and Russia was really the target of all it's efforts, then Russia would have fallen looooong ago. I would posit that since this isn't the case, that the CIA is probably not that powerful nor is Russia the target it believes it is.

The CIA does however make a great boogeyman for the Russian State to shadowbox when they need a distraction from internal problems, just as vaguely defined "Terrorism" is for the US.

EDIT: this also assumes the Ukrainians are complete fools able to be manipulated en-masse with ease by foreign, non-native actors to whatever end is desired. As we've seen, Ukraine can't act towards anything particular longer than a couple of years
Also...skinheads in Russia tend to be ultranationalists from what I've seen, not something the CIA would really seem to be wanting to foster.

Anyone proclaiming anything that relies on the CIA being competent fails on the first account. The CIA's competency is inversely related to how complex the problem is, and given that the world is a very complex place the CIA ends up resoundingly incompetent. The CIA is what you get when you put "murica" types in charge of something

Wait, the CIA created skinhead culture? ...Or just the ultra-nationalist turn it took?

*keeps reading*

Ah right, you clearly think that the CIA are like bogeymen. That time you stubbed your toe on the stairs? The CIA were behind that. Its all their elaborate master plan.

God, this thread.

 Ustrello wrote:
One went to the st Petersburg national library and it took him an hour everday to just get into the library because of the red tape and he was still able to get almost 20 thousands pages of material. And another one was able to bribe his way into the kgb archive. So no you are still wrong

Sure, keep believing that nonsense, no matter how impossible. After all, last week I bribed my way into the CIA director's office and stole all of his documents without anyone ever noticing.
And yes Wyrmalla, I can now indeed confirm that the last time Yaraton stubbed his toe was part of the CIA strategy to destroy Russia. It is all here in the documents.

I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

 Ustrello wrote:
I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

Tricking the CIA isn't hard. Saddam did it. Bin Laden did it. A guy from West Virginia did it. I just takes an understanding of their expectations and a certain amount of thinking outside the box.

However, Yaraton is so far outside the box anymore the light from the box will not reach him for another thousand years.

 Ustrello wrote:
I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

Oh, bribes can get you very far in Russia. Just not that far. You might be able to bribe your way inside one of the small regional FSB archives if you are very careful, but the central one on Bolshaya Lubyanka street? No way. Things just don't work that way.


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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

Tricking the CIA isn't hard. Saddam did it. Bin Laden did it. A guy from West Virginia did it. I just takes an understanding of their expectations and a certain amount of thinking outside the box.

However, Yaraton is so far outside the box anymore the light from the box will not reach him for another thousand years.

Wait... But if he is so far outside of the box, and being outside of the box helps you trick the CIA... That's it! Yaraton is the chosen hero who will avoid the CIA, ruin their plans and save Russia! Go Yaraton!

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

Tricking the CIA isn't hard. Saddam did it. Bin Laden did it. A guy from West Virginia did it. I just takes an understanding of their expectations and a certain amount of thinking outside the box.

However, Yaraton is so far outside the box anymore the light from the box will not reach him for another thousand years.

There's a Schrodinger joke here somewhere

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

Oh, bribes can get you very far in Russia. Just not that far. You might be able to bribe your way inside one of the small regional FSB archives if you are very careful, but the central one on Bolshaya Lubyanka street? No way. Things just don't work that way.


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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

Tricking the CIA isn't hard. Saddam did it. Bin Laden did it. A guy from West Virginia did it. I just takes an understanding of their expectations and a certain amount of thinking outside the box.

However, Yaraton is so far outside the box anymore the light from the box will not reach him for another thousand years.

Wait... But if he is so far outside of the box, and being outside of the box helps you trick the CIA... That's it! Yaraton is the chosen hero who will avoid the CIA, ruin their plans and save Russia! Go Yaraton!

Well I have seen the paperwork he got from there from the Cheka period and I am pretty sure they don't just let you photocopy it.

 Ustrello wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

Oh, bribes can get you very far in Russia. Just not that far. You might be able to bribe your way inside one of the small regional FSB archives if you are very careful, but the central one on Bolshaya Lubyanka street? No way. Things just don't work that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

Tricking the CIA isn't hard. Saddam did it. Bin Laden did it. A guy from West Virginia did it. I just takes an understanding of their expectations and a certain amount of thinking outside the box.

However, Yaraton is so far outside the box anymore the light from the box will not reach him for another thousand years.

Wait... But if he is so far outside of the box, and being outside of the box helps you trick the CIA... That's it! Yaraton is the chosen hero who will avoid the CIA, ruin their plans and save Russia! Go Yaraton!

Well I have seen the paperwork he got from there from the Cheka period and I am pretty sure they don't just let you photocopy it.

Yeah sure. One of my friends has an entire CIA archive stashed in his bedroom. It is easy to make up such fun stories, but without proof they have no value in an argument. This friend of yours did research in Russia in the 90's? Did he publish a book or a paper about it or something?

I'm imagining an FSB officer standing over a copy machine...cigarette hanging from his lip, as he glances at the stack of cash he's been given. He sighs as he inserts the next document to be copied and thinks about how much he hates borscht for dinner night after night...

In America, they just take the stuff out the revolving door to their next cushy corporate "analyst" gig

EDIT: Not trying to hop in on either side, just musing on the visuals in my head.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

Oh, bribes can get you very far in Russia. Just not that far. You might be able to bribe your way inside one of the small regional FSB archives if you are very careful, but the central one on Bolshaya Lubyanka street? No way. Things just don't work that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
I would believe that if Americans were corrupt as Russians especially 90s Russians

Tricking the CIA isn't hard. Saddam did it. Bin Laden did it. A guy from West Virginia did it. I just takes an understanding of their expectations and a certain amount of thinking outside the box.

However, Yaraton is so far outside the box anymore the light from the box will not reach him for another thousand years.

Wait... But if he is so far outside of the box, and being outside of the box helps you trick the CIA... That's it! Yaraton is the chosen hero who will avoid the CIA, ruin their plans and save Russia! Go Yaraton!

Well I have seen the paperwork he got from there from the Cheka period and I am pretty sure they don't just let you photocopy it.

Yeah sure. One of my friends has an entire CIA archive stashed in his bedroom. It is easy to make up such fun stories, but without proof they have no value in an argument. This friend of yours did research in Russia in the 90's? Did he publish a book or a paper about it or something?

Did you not read?

http://www.amazon.com/Marooned-Moscow-American-Imprisoned-Soviet/dp/1880100649/ref=la_B001H9TYSW_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1461461961&sr=1-1

If you read the description it says kgb archives right there.

I think we can get back to the topic now, instead of which side has the most corrupt intelligence agency. Thanks

Edit: misplaced my post got too excited by the hawks game

I have no idea what 'proof' you're talking about about, no posts have been edited. Please PM me if you want to discuss this further as it is definitely off topic

 Vaktathi wrote:

That's a...generous estimating of the CIA's capabilities and competence.

CIA made BinLaden (9/11 attack), made Akhmad Shakh Maksud (withdraval Soviets from Afghanistan, falling of Surav government), helped to made Taliban (almost defeating Maksud in Afghanistan), made Al Quaeda, made a lot to ruin USSR. I think, a lot of crap things we have was CIA work.

OK, lets return to the topic