Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Do troops in formations count as scoring?

Example? Which formation has troops in it? Can't think of one off the top of my head

I would say no, as they are not a troops selection in the FOC, they are in a formation, which is not attached to the FOC.

Rulebook pg123

Exceptions to the rule refer to mission special rules. So, in order for a "troops" unit from a formation to score, it would have to be a mission special rule. In essence, units in formations are not even classified with an HQ/Troop/Etc tag.

The new Nids Vanguard Dataslate has Genestealer formations.

Ztryder wrote:
I would say no, as they are not a troops selection in the FOC, they are in a formation, which is not attached to the FOC.

Rulebook pg123

Exceptions to the rule refer to mission special rules. So, in order for a "troops" unit from a formation to score, it would have to be a mission special rule. In essence, units in formations are not even classified with an HQ/Troop/Etc tag.

The new Nids Vanguard Dataslate has Genestealer formations.

Half right. Scoring units will be troop choices on a FOC. Currently none of the formations use FOC slots so none of the current formations have troops. Assuming for the sake of argument a new formation came out that did identify some of the models in it as counting as troops from a particular codex then yes, those units would also be scoring.

The new nid dataslate has two formations with genestealers in them. I think that's where OP's question is coming from.

From the dataslate:

"“FORMATIONS
A Formation presents a collection of two or more units that fight alongside one another in a particular way. When you choose an army, you can take a Formation as a special form of Detachment. Unless otherwise stated, you can take any number of Formations in your army, and each is considered to be a completely separate Detachment, regardless of how many units make it up.

Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The army list entries for each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself."

There's nothing about not being troops, elite, hq etc. they're a separate detachment, so just as ally troops still count as troops, these too are troop units. They're also listed as troops in their army list entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - just got a reply from GW digital about adding brood lords and scoring units from the formation. Here's the reply-

Hey Jonathon,
The unit is the same as the one that appears in the codex in all regards, so the unit's battlefield role stays the same as do any options that aren't specifically mentioned as being changed.

- Eddie

 tetrisphreak wrote:
From the dataslate:

"“FORMATIONS
A Formation presents a collection of two or more units that fight alongside one another in a particular way. When you choose an army, you can take a Formation as a special form of Detachment. Unless otherwise stated, you can take any number of Formations in your army, and each is considered to be a completely separate Detachment, regardless of how many units make it up.

Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The army list entries for each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself."

There's nothing about not being troops, elite, hq etc. they're a separate detachment, so just as ally troops still count as troops, these too are troop units. They're also listed as troops in their army list entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - just got a reply from GW digital about adding brood lords and scoring units from the formation. Here's the reply-

Hey Jonathon,
The unit is the same as the one that appears in the codex in all regards, so the unit's battlefield role stays the same as do any options that aren't specifically mentioned as being changed.

- Eddie

You have it backwards, they are a separate detachment, and nothing tells you they are troops, heavy, elite, what-have-you.

They are a formation and detachment outside of the FOC.

HQs that alter certain units into troops(or heavy support, or elite, or whatever) from their original position are a similar situation; it does not matter what section of the armylist the unit comes from, it matters what slot they occupy; and the formation genestealers do not occupy a troops selection.

Nothing tells you they are troops?

Except their codex entry where they were selected, further nothing tells you they are not troops. They are a separate detachment yup, but so are allies.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

You have it backwards, they are a separate detachment, and nothing tells you they are troops, heavy, elite, what-have-you.

The dataslate actually tells it.

And Allies have a troops selection.

And Are you saying that my Nobs are now both troops(because that is the selection they fill with my warboss) AND Elites(because that is where they are in the army list)?

No, I'm saying they're TROOPS because in the dataslate they're in the TROOPS section.

We are not trying to claim scoring lictors here, these are genestealers. Why is it so hard to see they're still troops regardless of the detachment they belong to? The whole "it doesn't take up FOC so it's not scoring" is what sounds like a made-up rule to me actually. Does that mean crisis bodyguards aren't denial units since they don't have an FOC slot? It's a ludicrous straw man.

Genestealers are troops. Confirmed by dataslate and GW digital.

So the Formation calls them troops choices?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So the Formation calls them troops choices?

Yes.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So the Formation calls them troops choices?

Yes. It has rules for genestealers and it says TROOPS in big bold letters on top of that.

EDIT: as you can see: ^

What if there is a slot modification INSIDE of a formation?Ghost Warrior formation comes to mind. If you run a Spiritseer, are the Wraithguard instead troops?

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So the Formation calls them troops choices?

Yes.

Well that clinches that then, they are in fact troops and thus scoring.

My argument against was assuming the formation didn't specify and just called upon choosing Genestealers from the parent codex, or just lists the units like the Tau Firebase support cadre(Which are not Elites and Heavy support, they are just formation).


Extremefreak: Ghostwarriors don't have choices, they have battlefield roles. So the spiritseer does not make them troops choices

I disagree. The rules for scoring units, specifies units that come from the troops selection of the FOC. Unless I've missed something the dataslate units do not come from the FOC troops selections.

 Happyjew wrote:
I disagree. The rules for scoring units, specifies units that come from the troops selection of the FOC. Unless I've missed something the dataslate units do not come from the FOC troops selections.

Here is the full quote: "An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart--the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission. The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit: if it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a Transport vehicle, or is occupying a building; if it has the Swarms special rule; if it has a special rule specifying that it never counts as scoring unit; if it is currently falling back (if the unit Regroups it immediately reverts to being a scoring unit again)."

A couple key words to note. First, the rule tells us scoring units normally come from the troop slots in the FOC, but the use of the word normally tells us there are exceptions. The rule also identifies two exceptions when scoring units come from other FOC selections, but the use of the phrase "main exceptions" tells us other exceptions are possible. Finally, the rule also outlines the 4 times when a troops unit never counts as scoring. Hence, troops in a formation score (as an exception to where you normally find scoring units) unless they meet one of the four cases where troops never score.

This is really a RAW/RAL argument. It will get a FAQ or errata.

Panzerleader, permissive rule set. Please site permission to count non-FOC slot troops as scoring.

 Happyjew wrote:
Panzerleader, permissive rule set. Please site permission to count non-FOC slot troops as scoring.

Please cite a rule saying that only FOC slot troops are scoring. I just cited the rules for scoring units showing that is a false assumption because of the inclusion of the word "normally" in the rule and the enummerated cases where a troops unit does not score.

I never said only FOC slot troops are units. There are exceptions. Said exceptions are specifically mentioned. We have permission for FOC slot troops to score. We have permission for heavy support and fast attack units to be scoring (in bgnt and scouring respectively). Unless you can cite permission for dataslate troops to be scoring, they are not.

I will point out though, since bgnt and scouring both specify "units" any hs/fa units from a dataslate would be scoring.

Happyjew, would you actually play it like that? I think that it is pretty clear that the intent is for the dataslate troops to be scoring.

 Happyjew wrote:
I never said only FOC slot troops are units. There are exceptions. Said exceptions are specifically mentioned. We have permission for FOC slot troops to score. We have permission for heavy support and fast attack units to be scoring (in bgnt and scouring respectively). Unless you can cite permission for dataslate troops to be scoring, they are not.

I will point out though, since bgnt and scouring both specify "units" any hs/fa units from a dataslate would be scoring.

The rule also says BGNT and Scouring are the main exceptions, not that they are the only exceptions. The only thing the rule tells us for certain is the 4 cases in which troops units do not score.

@crimson, I would not play it that way, if someone was using a dataslate with troops, I would play they score.

@panzerleader, we know three things about scoring units:
1. They are usually troop choices from an FOC slot.
2. There are times when troops are not scoring (which is specified).
3. There are times other units are scoring. Again when this happens it is specified.

Please cite permission to allow a non-slot troops to be scoring.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I never said only FOC slot troops are units. There are exceptions. Said exceptions are specifically mentioned. We have permission for FOC slot troops to score. We have permission for heavy support and fast attack units to be scoring (in bgnt and scouring respectively). Unless you can cite permission for dataslate troops to be scoring, they are not.

I will point out though, since bgnt and scouring both specify "units" any hs/fa units from a dataslate would be scoring.

The rule also says BGNT and Scouring are the main exceptions, not that they are the only exceptions. The only thing the rule tells us for certain is the 4 cases in which troops units do not score.

Correct. Sternguard are scoring with Pedro - because it's stated they are. Nothing states these data slate units are scoring.
Please cite permission. BGNT and Scouring have explicit permission to score.

What I'm trying to understand is - how does being part of a separate detachment, like allies, and chosen from the troops selection of your force-org, exclude them from being part of the "force-org"... ?

Further the dataslate is pretty clear that all special ability/rules etc are "carry on as normal" as they are in the codex.

Just like 'allied detachments' and 'fortifications' these special "separate detachments" are separate but STILL part of the force-org.

 Happyjew wrote:
@crimson, I would not play it that way, if someone was using a dataslate with troops, I would play they score.

@panzerleader, we know three things about scoring units:
1. They are usually troop choices from an FOC slot.
2. There are times when troops are not scoring (which is specified).
3. There are times other units are scoring. Again when this happens it is specified.

Please cite permission to allow a non-slot troops to be scoring.

Permission is given because you have a troops choice that is not excluded from scoring based on the four cases in which a troop unit never scores. Further permission is not required for a troops unit, regardless of what detachment it originates in. #3 applies to non-troops units scoring, as all examples cited show what is normally a denial unit receiving permission to score.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
@crimson, I would not play it that way, if someone was using a dataslate with troops, I would play they score.

@panzerleader, we know three things about scoring units:
1. They are usually troop choices from an FOC slot.
2. There are times when troops are not scoring (which is specified).
3. There are times other units are scoring. Again when this happens it is specified.

Please cite permission to allow a non-slot troops to be scoring.

Permission is given because you have a troops choice that is not excluded from scoring based on the four cases in which a troop unit never scores. Further permission is not required for a troops unit, regardless of what detachment it originates in. #3 applies to non-troops units scoring, as all examples cited show what is normally a denial unit receiving permission to score.

I think you guys are focusing on the wrong thing, these units are designated as a separate detachment, like primary detachments, additional primary detachments in bigger games, and allied detachments, but that doesn't 'non-slot' them somehow.

It's not a troops choice as it does not sit inside the FOC.