Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Detachments are part of the FOC.

Not in the BRB.
I don't have any if the detachment downloads - do they specify a new FOC?

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not a troops choice as it does not sit inside the FOC.

The data slate formation counts as a detachment. The unit inside the formation is identified as a troop. Conclusion: formations count as detachments with a unique FOC that may include troops choices.

Where is 'permission' given to count "troops" taken from additional primary detachments or allied detachments as scoring?

Dataslate detachments are just separate detachments, period.

In support of this, the Cypher formation consists of one HQ and 1-3 elites and the Storm Wing is fixed at 1 Heavy and 2 Fast Attack. Each unit is identified by FOC selection in the data slate for the formation.

"As detailed in each army's codex, all the forces you can use are categorized to tell you something about the role they are meant to play in the army. These roles are: HQ, troops, elites, fast attack and heavy support." BRB page 108 Force Organisation (emphasis mine)

All forces are so categorized as per their entry in the army codex.

 Abandon wrote:
"As detailed in each army's codex, all the forces you can use are categorized to tell you something about the role they are meant to play in the army. These roles are: HQ, troops, elites, fast attack and heavy support." BRB page 108 Force Organisation (emphasis mine)

All forces are so categorized as per their entry in the army codex.

Which I would think further argues that forces categorized as 'troops' whether in a primary detachment, additional primary detachment, allied detachment, or special dataslate detachment count as scoring.

 DJGietzen wrote:

Ztryder wrote:
I would say no, as they are not a troops selection in the FOC, they are in a formation, which is not attached to the FOC.

Rulebook pg123

Exceptions to the rule refer to mission special rules. So, in order for a "troops" unit from a formation to score, it would have to be a mission special rule. In essence, units in formations are not even classified with an HQ/Troop/Etc tag.

The new Nids Vanguard Dataslate has Genestealer formations.

Half right. Scoring units will be troop choices on a FOC. Currently none of the formations use FOC slots so none of the current formations have troops. Assuming for the sake of argument a new formation came out that did identify some of the models in it as counting as troops from a particular codex then yes, those units would also be scoring.

A formation would not 'use' a slot any more than an allied detachment 'uses' a slot. I believe the distinction you are trying to make is that the units in the detachment use slots on the FOC whereas units as part of formations do not. As per page 108 of the BRB I quoted above, it does not matter. Genestealers 'come from the troops selection' per their codex entry. I'll repeat part of Panzers qoute:

"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart"

Genestealers come from the troops selection and are on the FOC. As all units are categorized as per their codex entry, all Genestealers are scoring unless a rule removes that quality from them.

The fact that units in formations do not take up slots does not enter into it. What matters is what FOC selection the unit comes from. In this case, they come from a troops selection and nothing changes that fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"As detailed in each army's codex, all the forces you can use are categorized to tell you something about the role they are meant to play in the army. These roles are: HQ, troops, elites, fast attack and heavy support." BRB page 108 Force Organisation (emphasis mine)

All forces are so categorized as per their entry in the army codex.

Which I would think further argues that forces categorized as 'troops' whether in a primary detachment, additional primary detachment, allied detachment, or special dataslate detachment count as scoring.

Yes, that was my point.

PanzerLeader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not a troops choice as it does not sit inside the FOC.

The data slate formation counts as a detachment. The unit inside the formation is identified as a troop. Conclusion: formations count as detachments with a unique FOC that may include troops choices.

I'm sure you mean "assumption" since there's no rules basis for that.

rigeld2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not a troops choice as it does not sit inside the FOC.

The data slate formation counts as a detachment. The unit inside the formation is identified as a troop. Conclusion: formations count as detachments with a unique FOC that may include troops choices.

I'm sure you mean "assumption" since there's no rules basis for that.

It's not necessary, they are troops. Show me the rules basis for troops in other detachments, such as additional primary or allied, that allow them to score?

Anything in the troops slot of the FOC scores.
Formations don't have an FOC.

rigeld2 wrote:
Anything in the troops slot of the FOC scores.
Formations don't have an FOC.

Yes they do. It's set units though. Manufactorum Genestealers have 5 troops FOC, bc they are 5 units of troop genestealers. Deathleaper assassin brood is 1 hq and 5 elite. It's not standard FOC but formations do have set ones.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Anything in the troops slot of the FOC scores.
Formations don't have an FOC.

Yes they do. It's set units though. Manufactorum Genestealers have 5 troops FOC, bc they are 5 units of troop genestealers. Deathleaper assassin brood is 1 hq and 5 elite. It's not standard FOC but formations do have set ones.

I was told that they just have units, not a FOC.
Do you have a rules quote to back up your statement?

What do you think the FOC is? Anything you can put on the table now, and pay points for, is part of your FOC.

Your primary detachment, additional primary detachments, allied detachments, super heavy detachments, fortification detachments, and dataslate special detachments are all part of your FOC.

When discussing scoring units 'FOC' is clearly only used (rather than 'codex') because some units change roles via unlocking characters etc. But what you are not getting is these units, while designated to a separate detachment, like allies, are still part of your FOC.

So what slot does a data slate attachment take up?
I don't see a section for it in the BRB.
How many can I have?

rigeld2 wrote:
So what slot does a data slate attachment take up?
I don't see a section for it in the BRB.
How many can I have?

Dataslates didn't EXIST when the BRB was written. The rules to use them are self contained within the dataslates themselves. As such, I've already posted proof on page 1 that they list genestealers as troops on the army list section. The formation contains genestealers which are troops. Further, Eddie from GW digital publicly posted that units in dataslates maintain their battlefield role as codex units. That's pretty solid evidence that they're scoring if you ask me.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So what slot does a data slate attachment take up?
I don't see a section for it in the BRB.
How many can I have?

Dataslates didn't EXIST when the BRB was written. The rules to use them are self contained within the dataslates themselves. As such, I've already posted proof on page 1 that they list genestealers as troops on the army list section. The formation contains genestealers which are troops.

Right, so they don't exist in any FOC so they aren't scoring.

Further, Eddie from GW digital publicly posted that units in dataslates maintain their battlefield role as codex units. That's pretty solid evidence that they're scoring if you ask me.

Which is, of course, meaningless. Unless Eddie from GW Digital is also willing and able to edit the BRB FAQ to include dataslates in the FOC.

rigeld2 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So what slot does a data slate attachment take up?
I don't see a section for it in the BRB.
How many can I have?

Dataslates didn't EXIST when the BRB was written. The rules to use them are self contained within the dataslates themselves. As such, I've already posted proof on page 1 that they list genestealers as troops on the army list section. The formation contains genestealers which are troops.

Right, so they don't exist in any FOC so they aren't scoring.

Further, Eddie from GW digital publicly posted that units in dataslates maintain their battlefield role as codex units. That's pretty solid evidence that they're scoring if you ask me.

Which is, of course, meaningless. Unless Eddie from GW Digital is also willing and able to edit the BRB FAQ to include dataslates in the FOC.

Hmm I'm beginning to think you are just trying to troll this thread. You've turned FOC into some weird abstraction it has never been. Like the dataslate, Escalation is another example of units that are part of the FOC but not in your brb.

Just like your codex, the dataslate gives you the additional rules you need, along with the brb, to pay the game -they are not mutually exclusive.

 Gunzhard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So what slot does a data slate attachment take up?
I don't see a section for it in the BRB.
How many can I have?

Dataslates didn't EXIST when the BRB was written. The rules to use them are self contained within the dataslates themselves. As such, I've already posted proof on page 1 that they list genestealers as troops on the army list section. The formation contains genestealers which are troops.

Right, so they don't exist in any FOC so they aren't scoring.

Further, Eddie from GW digital publicly posted that units in dataslates maintain their battlefield role as codex units. That's pretty solid evidence that they're scoring if you ask me.

Which is, of course, meaningless. Unless Eddie from GW Digital is also willing and able to edit the BRB FAQ to include dataslates in the FOC.

Hmm I'm beginning to think you are just trying to troll this thread. You've turned FOC into some weird abstraction it has never been. Like the dataslate, Escalation is another example of units that are part of the FOC but not in your brb.

Just like your codex, the dataslate gives you the additional rules you need, along with the brb, to pay the game -they are not mutually exclusive.

Escalation adds a Lord of War slot, and therefore it's part of your FOC.
Is there a dataslates formation slot added in the dataslates?

So you are referring to the diagram only?

The Lord of War "slot" is a detachment. A separate detachment, not in the brb, which is exactly what the dataslate is.

 Gunzhard wrote:
The Lord of War "slot" is a detachment.

Not true. There is a slot AND a Detachment.

You get a single Lords of War Detachment.
In this Detachment is a single Lord of War slot.
(see Escalation p34-35)

The formation adds a Detachment.
What slots does it contain?

If it's simply Troop units chosen from the Codex, but not actually occupying a Troops slot, then they cannot be scoring without something stating they are.

 Gunzhard wrote:
So you are referring to the diagram only?

I'm referring to the Chart. You know, the C in FOC.

The Lord of War "slot" is a detachment. A separate detachment, not in the brb, which is exactly what the dataslate is.

A detachment with a slot. You know, what the rules create.

Where are the rules defining these dataslate detachments and slots? I'm sure you'll be able to point me at one. Somewhere.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
So you are referring to the diagram only?

I'm referring to the Chart. You know, the C in FOC.

The Lord of War "slot" is a detachment. A separate detachment, not in the brb, which is exactly what the dataslate is.

A detachment with a slot. You know, what the rules create.

Where are the rules defining these dataslate detachments and slots? I'm sure you'll be able to point me at one. Somewhere.

Here is the entry from the Storm Wing data slate: “A Formation presents a collection of two or more units that fight alongside one another in a particular way. When you choose an army, you can take a Formation as a special form of Detachment. Unless otherwise stated, you can take any number of Formations in your army, and each is considered to be a completely separate Detachment, regardless of how many units make it up.
Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The army list entries for each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself.”

A formation is by definition a special detachment. The formation specifically tells you the required units for that detachment. The rule also references "battlefield role" per the core force organization rules in the BRB. A troops choice in any detachment is always a troops choice and scores unless specifically prohibited from scoring. You don't need a separate line and block FOC for a formation because it's composition never varies.

So it's a detachment with NO slots then?

PanzerLeader wrote:
A troops choice in any detachment is always a troops choice and scores unless specifically prohibited from scoring.

Sadly this is completely made up.

A Troops choice is a Troops choice only when it's a Troops choice.
A Troops choice taken as Heavy Support is not a Troops choice.
An Elite taken as Troops is not an Elites choice.
A Troops choice taken in a Detachment without any defined slots is... well nothing. Simply a unit taken in a Detachment.

This thread has become ridiculous.......congratz everybody. From people claiming they know the rules even without having the dataslates at hand to people arguing for the sake of arguing......

I say if something is a troop choice and in a detachment, it still scores, dont like that, fine play elsewhere. Until this point comes up in a tourney, when officials have to make the call, then play however you want. Just stop wasting the OPs time with all this he said she said arguments that eventually (which it has) fall off the main topic and become a fight of who doesnt want to think they are ever wrong.

 grendel083 wrote:
So it's a detachment with NO slots then?

PanzerLeader wrote:
A troops choice in any detachment is always a troops choice and scores unless specifically prohibited from scoring.

Sadly this is completely made up.

A Troops choice is a Troops choice only when it's a Troops choice.
A Troops choice taken as Heavy Support is not a Troops choice.
An Elite taken as Troops is not an Elites choice.
A Troops choice taken in a Detachment without any defined slots is... well nothing. Simply a unit taken in a Detachment.

No slots sure, just like in the brb. In the brb they are 'Troops selection'... or Fortifications or 'HQ selections'.

 Gunzhard wrote:
No slots sure, just like in the brb. In the brb they are 'Troops selection'... or Fortifications or 'HQ selections'.

Does using the term "slot" instead of "selection" make any difference to the point?
They are refered to as "Slots" in Escalation, so the term is interchangable.
It still remains a Detachment with no defined Slots.

 grendel083 wrote:
So it's a detachment with NO slots then?

PanzerLeader wrote:
A troops choice in any detachment is always a troops choice and scores unless specifically prohibited from scoring.

Sadly this is completely made up.

A Troops choice is a Troops choice only when it's a Troops choice.
A Troops choice taken as Heavy Support is not a Troops choice.
An Elite taken as Troops is not an Elites choice.
A Troops choice taken in a Detachment without any defined slots is... well nothing. Simply a unit taken in a Detachment.

Way to take a sentence out of context. The whole thread is about troops choice in the troops slot. There was certainly nothing else implied and you're simply trying to create a straw man.

A formation is clearly, by its own rules, a special detachment with a fixed composition. A storm wing formation is always 1 heavy (the raven) and 2 fast attack (the storm talons). It identifies them as such in the data slate and the formation rule tells you to look for their "battlefield role" which in the BRB is are defined as HQ, Troops, Elite, Heavy Support, and Fast Attack. The tyranid data slate tells you to take 5 genestealer broods as troops. The formation comes with 5 fixed troop slots. It's pretty clear.

PanzerLeader wrote:
You don't need a separate line and block FOC for a formation because it's composition never varies.

You absolutely do need a FOC entry for the troops to score - since that's what the rule says.

BRB does stipulate troops under the FOC for scoring, but with rule book being so out of date in these regards who knows. To be a denial unit however, does not mention the FOC.

They do all still have there battlefield role, if it's troops they ate troops.