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Someone on the previous page quoted the Formations rules saying that "Formations are a special type of Detachment". If you take an Allied Detachment, the Troops within that are scoring, right? Hence the same logic would apply to the Dataslate, I assume? Or am I missing something in the Allies rules?

Troops in an allied detachment fill a troops slot. Dataslates don't use FOC slots.

Is there any other formations/DS that contain troop choice's which can be allied with something else as Battle Brothers?

It would be silly if taken from the same parent codex saying they are not scoring, meanwhile the formation rules say BB are scoring units, so the same troops formation taken as 'allies' are scoring.


Additionally, while I don't think any non-vehicle ones exist now, Dedicated Transports sit outside the FOC (but count as FO category of the unit bought for, in essence, same as what we are talking about with the formations), so they could not score either. though this might make a difference for Big guns etc.

Example; Havocs who have taken a DE of a Rhino, even in big guns the Rhino is not scoring...

Tho the rules for them becoming scoring (within big guns rules) doesn't mention the FOC.....

I think the FOC is a bad example to say they can not score, for more and more reasons I am finding while reading... Plenty of ways formation units can suddenly, randomly become scoring within the BRB rules. With all the possibilities it seems highly unlikely they intended for troops in the parent codex to be less advantageous than a formation HS choice, or the formation taken as allied, BRB is so out of date here it hardly seems applicable in this mess. I'm happy to say HIWPI; Scoring.

Has already been asked this weekend twice on GW: DE facebook page (not by me).

 Happyjew wrote:
Troops in an allied detachment fill a troops slot. Dataslates don't use FOC slots.

The BRB word is "selection", not "slot." By plain English, replacing "selection" with "choice" is a much more consistent interpretation across all rules sources than arbitrarily going "selection" = "slot."

Question to Eddie at GW Digital:

:"Hi Eddie, ...I'm assuming that Genestealers, for instance in the Broodlord Hunting packs, are scoring units, since they're listed in the Toops section. A couple of people say that can't be, as they are in a detachment.Which is correct - are they scoring troops? TIA"

Answer: " The unit functions exactly as it does in the codex with the only differences being those stated in the Dataslate."

THey're troops. They score.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
No slots sure, just like in the brb. In the brb they are 'Troops selection'... or Fortifications or 'HQ selections'.

Does using the term "slot" instead of "selection" make any difference to the point?
They are refered to as "Slots" in Escalation, so the term is interchangable.
It still remains a Detachment with no defined Slots.

Yeah this is total nonsense, "defined slots" have nothing to do with scoring what so ever, you're just trying to be argumentative. The genestealers in the dataslate are however 'troop selections' even though they are designated to a separate detachment.

The dataslate even goes so far as to relist each entry, and with large bold print it says, "TROOPS".

 The Shadow wrote:
Someone on the previous page quoted the Formations rules saying that "Formations are a special type of Detachment". If you take an Allied Detachment, the Troops within that are scoring, right? Hence the same logic would apply to the Dataslate, I assume? Or am I missing something in the Allies rules?

You're not missing anything except the sheer ridiculousness of some people.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Question to Eddie at GW Digital:

:"Hi Eddie, ...I'm assuming that Genestealers, for instance in the Broodlord Hunting packs, are scoring units, since they're listed in the Toops section. A couple of people say that can't be, as they are in a detachment.Which is correct - are they scoring troops? TIA"

Answer: " The unit functions exactly as it does in the codex with the only differences being those stated in the Dataslate."

THey're troops. They score.

Good enough for me. As I said the more I read between different rules the more illogical it seemed.

My initial reply in this thread was ill-informed and incorrect.

Normally to be a scoring unit in an eternal war mission the unit must come from a troops selection for the FOC.

For a unit to be a troops selection it 1st must have the battlefield role of troops. Units in a formation do not always have the battlefield role printed in the dataslate but they do all have a battlefield role. The formation rules have a section called "army and battlefield role" and that section tells us what codex battlefield role the units in that formation will have. This means if the unit is chosen from Codex: Tyranids, and in that codex that unit has the battlefield role of troops, then the unit in the formation is also a troops unit, even if the datalsate itself omits the battlefield role of the unit.

However, formations, while detachments, do not use the FOC. As a result troop units chosen as part of a formation do not come from a troops selection for the FOC.

Big Guns Never Tire and The Scouring have special rules that make all heavy support or fast attack units scoring. Becouse these special rules do not mention the FOC then fast attack or heavy units from formations would also be scoring units.

What I find interesting is that only page 123 makes mention of the troop units needing to come from the troops selection for the FOC. The rest of the time, including the special rules for Big Guns and Scouring just being troop choices appears to have been enough. At the time page 123 was written troop units that were not troop selections for the FOC did not exists outside of dedicated transports, something that was already not a scoring unit, and the language used on page 123 may not have been intended to limit scoring units to only units that take up a FOC slot.


RAW: Formation troops are not scoring units even though they are troop units because they do not take up a FOC slot.
RAI?: Formation troops are troop units and non-vehicle troop units are scoring units regardless of what detachment they are in.
HIWPI: formation troops are scoring.

If i had to make a ruling on it as a TO i would rule it thus:

A formation of troop units, since not using a FOC slot in the troops area, would count as a single scoring unit.


This means that the whole formation could claim an objective, but only a single objective.

RAW: Formation troops are not scoring units even though they are troop units because they do not take up a FOC slot.

Let me ask you this, are other detachments, allied, additional primary, fortifications, lords of war, part of the FOC?

Because the dataslate says these formations are just like the other detachments, it is just a separate detachment. Granted they didn't bother reprinting the 'chart' which would have made this much clearer, but the answer is yes, they are still part of the FOC despite being separate detachment, "slots" have nothing to do with this.

Because the brb says NOTHING about 'taking up a FOC slot', it says a 'troop selection' from the FOC, which is exactly what the genestealers in the dataslate are.

It is never required that the unit fills a slot.
It is only required that the units "come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart".
We are referred to the codex for information on the units battlefield role.
By the information the codex provides, the unit is a troops selection, goes in the troops section of the FOC and therefore is a scoring unit.

The rules in the new detachment list genestealers as troops. If you want to argue something like that then go ahead... We can argue anything for whatever reason.

 Gunzhard wrote:

RAW: Formation troops are not scoring units even though they are troop units because they do not take up a FOC slot.

Let me ask you this, are other detachments, allied, additional primary, fortifications, lords of war, part of the FOC?

Yes. Because the rules say they are.
You've literally invented rules saying that formation detachments are part of the FOC and have quoted zero rules support.
You may think I'm ridiculous, but you've quoted nothing to prove your case and instead have resorted to insults.

Good day sir.

Are we referred to the codex to determine the formation units role in the battle? Yes.

Per the codex, is the unit a scoring unit? Yes.

What more needs to be said?

 Gunzhard wrote:

RAW: Formation troops are not scoring units even though they are troop units because they do not take up a FOC slot.

Let me ask you this, are other detachments, allied, additional primary, fortifications, lords of war, part of the FOC?

Yes.

Because the dataslate says these formations are just like the other detachments, it is just a separate detachment.

Actualy, it says that formations each form their own detachment, and are not part of the primary, allied, or any other detachment. Unlike the other detachments however there is no indication any of these units are part of the FOC. Each book that has introduced a new detachment, except for every single data-slate, has explained how this detachment is part of the FOC. Being 'outside' the FOC is also not a foreign concept to 40k so with out any permission to treat a unit as FOC selection we must assume it is outside the chart.

Granted they didn't bother reprinting the 'chart' which would have made this much clearer, but the answer is yes, they are still part of the FOC despite being separate detachment, "slots" have nothing to do with this.

If each dataslate had a new formation FOC for us to use then it would reverse the RAW argument 100%. The fact that they didn't is the problem. The line about normal scoring units on pg123 of the BRB makes the FOC slots extremely relevant.

You are adding abstraction to FOC, unnecessarily. The FOC is simply the organization of your forces, comprised of 'HQ selections', 'Troop selections', and at the time of the brb, it also had Fortifications and Allied detachments. Everything you pay points for is part of your FOC, even things that don't follow the standard structure, like dedicated transports.

Now we have new additions, like Lord of War detachments and dataslate detachments. You are way over thinking this - the crux of your reasoning might be, the words "force organization chart" are not mentioned in the dataslate...

But did you know that the words "force organization chart" are also not mentioned in several of the newer codex? By your reasoning nothing in the newer codex could ever be scoring. But after banging your head against the wall for a few hours as we've done here, you see this magical FOC is simply composed of 'Troop selections' - and the new dataslate has troop selections, and their declaration is quite explicitly noted.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Are we referred to the codex to determine the formation units role in the battle? Yes.

Per the codex, is the unit a scoring unit? Yes.

What more needs to be said?

No, the unit is nor scoring per the codex unless it is taken as a selection for the FOC. Units in formations are not.

Per the BRB for a unit to be scoring it must be 'taken from' the FOC not 'selected for the FOC'.

All units in the codex have a place on the FOC chart whether you take them or not. To look at it otherwise would make it impossible to have scoring units at all.

"all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart"

It does not matter per the wording of the rule if the unit ends up occupying a troops slot. What matters is that it 'comes from' that section of the chart. Every unit in the troops section of the codex is associated with the troops section of the FOC before you purchase any of them. That is the only way a unit can be said to originate or 'come from' the troops selection of the FOC.

You believe you purchase a unit and then it gets slotted into the appropriate place on the chart if I understand you correctly.
I believe it already has a place on the chart when you purchase it. That the troops section on the chart and the troops section of the army list are inextricably linked.
One of these ways of thinking accounts for units being able to originate 'from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart' in some manner. The other does not.

Also I'd like to point out that there is no option within the codex to take Genestealers as anything other than as a troops selection on the FOC and as the data slate defers to the codex rules for such things their standing as a scoring unit would remain just as if they had been purchased using the rules from the codex even if per the data slate they no longer take up a slot.

Taking up a slot is not a requirement for being a scoring unit. Originating from the troops section of the FOC is.

 Abandon wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Are we referred to the codex to determine the formation units role in the battle? Yes.

Per the codex, is the unit a scoring unit? Yes.

What more needs to be said?

No, the unit is nor scoring per the codex unless it is taken as a selection for the FOC. Units in formations are not.

Per the BRB for a unit to be scoring it must be 'taken from' the FOC not 'selected for the FOC'.

All units in the codex have a place on the FOC chart whether you take them or not. To look at it otherwise would make it impossible to have scoring units at all.

"all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart"

It does not matter per the wording of the rule if the unit ends up occupying a troops slot. What matters is that it 'comes from' that section of the chart. Every unit in the troops section of the codex is associated with the troops section of the FOC before you purchase any of them. That is the only way a unit can be said to originate or 'come from' the troops selection of the FOC.

You believe you purchase a unit and then it gets slotted into the appropriate place on the chart if I understand you correctly.
I believe it already has a place on the chart when you purchase it. That the troops section on the chart and the troops section of the army list are inextricably linked.
One of these ways of thinking accounts for units being able to originate 'from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart' in some manner. The other does not.

Also I'd like to point out that there is no option within the codex to take Genestealers as anything other than as a troops selection on the FOC and as the data slate defers to the codex rules for such things their standing as a scoring unit would remain just as if they had been purchased using the rules from the codex even if per the data slate they no longer take up a slot.

Taking up a slot is not a requirement for being a scoring unit. Originating from the troops section of the FOC is.

1) "One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex." and "all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart" means that you can make one selection per box/slot on the FOC. The units that come from the troop selection, i.e thing thing you put into the slot, are scoring units.

2) We have permission to include the units in a formation, regardless of the boxes on the FOC. Including these units is not making a selection for the chart.

3) The dataslate has us select units from the codex, but it does not have us make the selection using the FOC. Just because when you select units from the codex for the primary, or allied detachments you are using the chart does not mean that when you are selecting units for the formation are you using the chart.

4) there is no option in the codex to take any unit in your codex as part of your army. That permission depends on what detachment the units will become a part of. The permissions for primary and allied detachment are both printed in the BRB, permission for formations work differently and are printed in the dataslate.

Bottom line. When you include units in a formation in your army you are not making a selection in relation to the FOC. Because only the units that come from the FOC troop selection are scoring in a normal eternal war mission none of your formation troops can be scoring despite being troop units.

Interestingly the only BRB unit/s which are identified as being 'outside' are Dedicated transports which are described as being outside the Force Organization Structure, not the Force Organization Chart, the lends heavily to the FOC being a selection of categories (as technically we would say ''outside the FOC’’, which is incorrect), which encompasses everything you take.

The ''Force Org.'' ... Is defined pretty much as the collection of Force Organizational Categories,- Also called 'Battlefield role' in some parts and different publications.

The Force Organization Chart in the BRB is a collection of FO Categories slots/selections for primary detachment & allied detachments etc (Force Organization structure). Even things that sit outside the FOS, is not outside the FOC. This is the standard FOC, if a FOC is nothing more than the collections of FOS then...

Does it actually say in any publications Formations sit outside the FOC or is that just built on assumptions, and the misunderstanding of the difference between FOS and FOC?

 Abandon wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Are we referred to the codex to determine the formation units role in the battle? Yes.

Per the codex, is the unit a scoring unit? Yes.

What more needs to be said?

No, the unit is nor scoring per the codex unless it is taken as a selection for the FOC. Units in formations are not.

Per the BRB for a unit to be scoring it must be 'taken from' the FOC not 'selected for the FOC'.

All units in the codex have a place on the FOC chart whether you take them or not. To look at it otherwise would make it impossible to have scoring units at all.

"all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart"

It does not matter per the wording of the rule if the unit ends up occupying a troops slot. What matters is that it 'comes from' that section of the chart. Every unit in the troops section of the codex is associated with the troops section of the FOC before you purchase any of them. That is the only way a unit can be said to originate or 'come from' the troops selection of the FOC.

You believe you purchase a unit and then it gets slotted into the appropriate place on the chart if I understand you correctly.
I believe it already has a place on the chart when you purchase it. That the troops section on the chart and the troops section of the army list are inextricably linked.
One of these ways of thinking accounts for units being able to originate 'from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart' in some manner. The other does not.

Also I'd like to point out that there is no option within the codex to take Genestealers as anything other than as a troops selection on the FOC and as the data slate defers to the codex rules for such things their standing as a scoring unit would remain just as if they had been purchased using the rules from the codex even if per the data slate they no longer take up a slot.

Taking up a slot is not a requirement for being a scoring unit. Originating from the troops section of the FOC is.

Er. why is this still being discussed? You must be exceptionally bored?

Just a couple of posts into the thread, people posted that the 'stealers are listed as troops, and are therefore scoring. Still, a few people persisted with convoluted arguments that, as it's not a straightforward FOC, they don't score - this in the absence of any specific evidence.

Now GW have confirmed that, yes, they are scoring troops and that, yes, troops in this detachment are exactly equivalent. So isn't it time to move on?

No, the evidence is that it isn't troops that score, but troops from the FOC. These are, indeed, troops. Now prove the other part of the requirement, that they're from the FOC. page and para.

Also read the tenets on acceptable sources for rules

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the evidence is that it isn't troops that score, but troops from the FOC. These are, indeed, troops. Now prove the other part of the requirement, that they're from the FOC. page and para.

Also read the tenets on acceptable sources for rules

I don't need to. GW have confirmed that the Troops in question, which are listed as Troops, are in fact troops, and do score.

Feel free to deny that GW digital are an acceptable source for GW digital rules, I guess it passes the time.

But thanks, this thread has been an illuminating example of how people will insist on trying to ride away on a horse that is not only dead, but decomposing.

YMDC never ceases to amaze me with these circular arguments.

I'll be using the Genestealers as Troops until an official release tells me otherwise. I suggest you guys do the same. If somebody refuses to play you because of it, they should find a new hobby, 'cos this one really isn't for them. It's a GAME guys. Enjoy it.

They are scoring, end of discussion. The fact they are previewing certain units in specialized formations doesn't mean that you cannot count them as scoring. Cant believe how hard people try to bend the rules so they either gain some sort of favor or for some other weird reason. It clearly says they are scoring in this formation, guess what live with it.

Out of curiosity, a question for the FOC-sticklers:

Would you deny that Troop units created by special rules score? For example, Termagants spawned by a Tervigon or Daemons spawned by a 12 result on the Warp Storm table.

 Redemption wrote:
Out of curiosity, a question for the FOC-sticklers:

Would you deny that Troop units created by special rules score? For example, Termagants spawned by a Tervigon or Daemons spawned by a 12 result on the Warp Storm table.

Think thats thread closed... ... Though I think some of them might specify.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the evidence is that it isn't troops that score, but troops from the FOC. These are, indeed, troops. Now prove the other part of the requirement, that they're from the FOC. page and para.

Also read the tenets on acceptable sources for rules

I don't need to. GW have confirmed that the Troops in question, which are listed as Troops, are in fact troops, and do score.

Feel free to deny that GW digital are an acceptable source for GW digital rules, I guess it passes the time.

But thanks, this thread has been an illuminating example of how people will insist on trying to ride away on a horse that is not only dead, but decomposing.

Reading comprehension there.

I never stated they werent troops. I asked you to prove they are troops from the FOC. Once you prove both, then they score.

I was pointing out the forum tenets that you are ignoring, and the forum rule number one, which you are also ignoring,

 Redemption wrote:
Out of curiosity, a question for the FOC-sticklers:

Would you deny that Troop units created by special rules score? For example, Termagants spawned by a Tervigon or Daemons spawned by a 12 result on the Warp Storm table.

For Tervigons, it's explicit in their rules.

C: T wrote:“A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules.”

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
They are scoring, end of discussion. The fact they are previewing certain units in specialized formations doesn't mean that you cannot count them as scoring. Cant believe how hard people try to bend the rules so they either gain some sort of favor or for some other weird reason. It clearly says they are scoring in this formation, guess what live with it.

Where does it clearly say that? What rule? Surely if it's that clear you can cite it, correct?

Or perhaps you just don't like people discussing an unclear rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunzhard wrote:
But did you know that the words "force organization chart" are also not mentioned in several of the newer codex? By your reasoning nothing in the newer codex could ever be scoring. But after banging your head against the wall for a few hours as we've done here, you see this magical FOC is simply composed of 'Troop selections' - and the new dataslate has troop selections, and their declaration is quite explicitly noted.

You're failing to read the BRB now. If you're fielding an army you are using the FOC. By definition.
Unless you're using a dataslate - then you're not.

There are now two posts from GW Digital on their facebook page confirming that the manufactorum 'stealers score as normal troops.

"Hi Eddie!

I've just purchased Rising Leviathan I, but I've a doubt. Are the Genestealers (and other troops choices from different dataslates) from the Gen. Manufactorum and the Broodlord's Hunting Pack scoring units? Or no, since the dataslates didn't have FoC?


Games Workshop: Digital Editions Hey Gabriele,
The units in a Datasheet are exactly the same as the ones on the codex, with the only difference being those stated. Battlefield Role remains the same (unless the datasheet says different)."

But sure, do keep repeating forum "rules" and other "reading comprehension" comments, they really help your case.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
There are now two posts from GW Digital on their facebook page confirming that the manufactorum 'stealers score as normal troops.

But sure, do keep repeating forum "rules" and other "reading comprehension" comments, they really help your case.

Considering the tenets of the sub forum, he's correct.

What you're doing is ignoring those tenets. Deliberately. Reported.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do I think they're intended to score? Probably.
Would I tell someone in a game they don't score? Not likely.

Does that change what the rule says? Nope.