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Pretty much topic. I thought the two factions hated eachother... How are they battle brothers?

Dark Eldar and Eldar disagree with each other's methods (Eldar despise the continuations of acts that caused the Fall, DE think their cousins are too close minded and enjoy killing them), but they would always rather fight with other Eldar than with any other race. Eldar-Dark Eldar armies are largely corsair bands, as the craftworlds would only fight with DE if the craftworld itself was in danger of falling. However, GW has no method to represent anything besides the generic in each book, so things like mercenaries, corsairs, exodites, ect, dont always have similar alliances. Therefore, the ally chart is a mess.

Pretty much this - there are actually, IIRC more instances in the recent Codexes of Eldar . Dark Eldar co-operation rather than the opposite - mostly against enemies such as Orks and Tyranids.

This also seems to be the case in recent BL novels.....

So they band together and aren't at war with eachother?

Oh they will kill each other if they get in each other's way (or if the DE have the chance and feel bored), but mostly they are just wary of each other and find the other party distasteful.

 zephoid wrote:
Oh they will kill each other if they get in each other's way (or if the DE have the chance and feel bored), but mostly they are just wary of each other and find the other party distasteful.

So they're basically like inlaws. Come together only under dire circumstances...

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Oh they will kill each other if they get in each other's way (or if the DE have the chance and feel bored), but mostly they are just wary of each other and find the other party distasteful.

So they're basically like inlaws. Come together only under dire circumstances...

...but will come down heavy on any outsider interfering with their stuff. Yup, that's pretty much the spirit.

In my opinion, it's more:

Eldar's view: Eldar are Eldar, regardless of who or what they have become, and as a dying race you want to team up with any of your own kind you can..

Dark Eldar's view: Sure they might be wussies from Space, but that doesn't stop them being damn good at killing things, and we can stab them in the back at the end!

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
In my opinion, it's more:

Eldar's view: Eldar are Eldar, regardless of who or what they have become, and as a dying race you want to team up with any of your own kind you can..

Dark Eldar's view: Sure they might be wussies from Space, but that doesn't stop them being damn good at killing things, and we can stab them in the back at the end!

I like this! I love Dark Eldar, but man Eldar are space wussies!!!

I read all the Eldar and Dark Eldar books, and they confirm what I understood all along. Which is:
Eldar and DE have no reason to hate each other.
DE did not cause the fall. ALL the Eldar caused the fall. After the fall, some decided to change their ways (Craftworld Eldar and Exodites) avoiding excess and keeping soulstones to keep Slaanesh from claiming them. Others decided to shrug and keep doing what they're doing, but within the safety of the Webway so as to not make the same mistake. (DE)

They often respectfully disagree with each others' lifestyles, but they see each other as being of the same superior race. It's not unheard of for some DE to decide to live among, and become, Craftworlders. Some Craftworlders get restless and take the Path of the Renegade which can lead to joining Eldar pirates or DE.

As a race, the Eldar don't condemn one another for their own personal choices. Thus, Eldar and DE have no problem with one another. Battle brother status fits perfectly.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Pretty much topic. I thought the two factions hated eachother... How are they battle brothers?

Because they are from the same race . An englishman and a french will hate each other and wage unending wars , but it is nothing to compering to both of them will do to those they consider "not their people".

 Archonate wrote:
I read all the Eldar and Dark Eldar books, and they confirm what I understood all along. Which is:
Eldar and DE have no reason to hate each other.
DE did not cause the fall. ALL the Eldar caused the fall. After the fall, some decided to change their ways (Craftworld Eldar and Exodites) avoiding excess and keeping soulstones to keep Slaanesh from claiming them. Others decided to shrug and keep doing what they're doing, but within the safety of the Webway so as to not make the same mistake. (DE)

They often respectfully disagree with each others' lifestyles, but they see each other as being of the same superior race. It's not unheard of for some DE to decide to live among, and become, Craftworlders. Some Craftworlders get restless and take the Path of the Renegade which can lead to joining Eldar pirates or DE.

As a race, the Eldar don't condemn one another for their own personal choices. Thus, Eldar and DE have no problem with one another. Battle brother status fits perfectly.

So, what caused the DE to be cursed and have to cause heinous acts in order to stop from basically disintergrating ?

Slanesh . And certain that exodites were ther before the fall .As were the craft world elder. If craftworld eldar started to be post the slanesh thing , then the fluff about some craftworlds not making it would make 0 sense .
It would also mean that without a soul stone an eldar would undergo the same soul dimnishing effect Darkeldar have and it doesn't happen , craftworld eldars do have souls , DE don't and fuel their bodies with what ever pain they can inflict thanks to their high sensitivity .

Also, I think the allies matrix was designed to represent the highest possible level of allegiance you can have within the setting, not necessarily the most common level. I'm not saying I think it makes perfect sense, but I think does make more sense if you look at it this way rather than battle bros meaning the two factions are all peas and carrots

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
So they band together and aren't at war with eachother?

Eldar Corsairs (Space Elf Pirates!) are made up of Eldar and Dark Eldar forces.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Archonate wrote:
I read all the Eldar and Dark Eldar books, and they confirm what I understood all along. Which is:
Eldar and DE have no reason to hate each other.
DE did not cause the fall. ALL the Eldar caused the fall. After the fall, some decided to change their ways (Craftworld Eldar and Exodites) avoiding excess and keeping soulstones to keep Slaanesh from claiming them. Others decided to shrug and keep doing what they're doing, but within the safety of the Webway so as to not make the same mistake. (DE)

They often respectfully disagree with each others' lifestyles, but they see each other as being of the same superior race. It's not unheard of for some DE to decide to live among, and become, Craftworlders. Some Craftworlders get restless and take the Path of the Renegade which can lead to joining Eldar pirates or DE.

As a race, the Eldar don't condemn one another for their own personal choices. Thus, Eldar and DE have no problem with one another. Battle brother status fits perfectly.

So, what caused the DE to be cursed and have to cause heinous acts in order to stop from basically disintergrating ?

Craftworld Eldar would be the same were it not for their soul stones. DE prefer to replenish their ever-disintegrating souls through torture because it's apparently a really pleasurable sensation. Makes the wrinkles go away too.
Although the webway slows the rate at which their souls leech away, it doesn't stop it entirely.
Books mention that their time in real space is very taxing on them, which is why they teleport in, strike fast, and gtfo asap with their new slaves.

Eldar are extreme supremacist space nazis.
They absolutely despise anyone who is not an Eldar and would gladly exterminate the lesser races if they had a chance.
To the Eldar, only other Eldar are actually people. They may work together with lesser races such as humans on occasion to fight common foes such as Chaos, but they still view humans as no more than animals. Some groups of Eldar are more extreme in this than others, but all do have this tendency.

Now the Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, Exodites, Corsairs and other Eldar groups may not always agree or like each other, and they sometimes wage war on each other, but in the end, all groups are still Eldar and will actively interact and work together to achieve their common goals.
It is not uncommon for an Eldar to leave a Craftworld, join a group of Corsairs and eventually journey to the Dark City and end up in the service of a Dark Eldar Kabal. It can even go the other way around. It is not unheard of for a Commorite Eldar to leave Commoragh and start a new live on a Craftworld.

In short: Two groups of Eldar may hate each other, but they will still hate each other less than the rest of the universe.

I see it this way, the only thing that is really broken is batle brothers as it allows cheesy combinations and lets be honest, it doesnt fit the fluff. Even amongst the 'closest" allies, there is distrust and suspician. Enough so that the armies might fight alongside one another against a common enemy but not enough to open ranks for them.

That said, I think the chart is just foolish. For one, it is purely fluff based and not even very well in that regard.

To be honest, I would be ok with any army allying with any other outside of battle brothers. many reasons for this, ..
1. not all games are fluff driven. Often as in tournies, players are looking to win and dont care about fluff.
2. It doesnt take into account renegade factions of a race being willing to work outside the norm.
3. Common enemies forcing enemies to fight alongside each other.
4. Gaming groups with odd army combinations. Using the chart it might simply either disallow players to combine to be pigeonholed into always combining in a certain way. They just want to play using thier armies and have different combos.
5. The fact that odd alliances can be explained using the flff. For example, eldar uses captured dark eldar equipment operated by veterans to train younger eldar. Fighting alongside them using their tactics and suh teaches them how to fight against them. Or another example, mechanicum creating an army of constructs that replicate the tyranids to fight alongside the space marines in order to help the marines train or just because that particular mech leader likes the way they look.

MANY examples like these can be given to explain odd combos and purist players would still be free to go according to the fluff as they see it and limit themselves as they wish.

+1 for the "At least they're still Eldar" posts ITT.

Think about it, in a war IRL, would you more likely to team up with somebody you hate from your country, or a somebody from a completely alien culture who may or may not want to screw you over later depending on the political situation? That guy from your country might be a douche but at least you know he generally has a similar purpose.

I see it this way, the only thing that is really broken is batle brothers as it allows cheesy combinations and lets be honest, it doesnt fit the fluff. Even amongst the 'closest" allies, there is distrust and suspician.

allying never was and never will be about what ally you can have , but about what enemy you have. The western ally knew very well who Stalin was and what he was doing and what he is going to do , but nazi germany was more of a problem .

Eldar/D.eldar work like an old sociaty. Daily you hate everyone from your village or town , you can try to kill your next of kin , because he or she parked her car wrong . But when it comes others the town or village are your people and those on the other side of the river/with a different faith or skin color are not and you will kill them till there is no one left . Family buissness can be delt when outside problems are gone.

"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers"

The only example of open hostility in the 6E Eldar book between the two "factions" is Eldrad and Vect both hate each other's guts (20,000+ years being the biggest badasses in space will do that I guess).

The Eldar aren't really two "factions" in the sense of the universe. They are on the table-top but not in the 40k universe. Dark Eldar are the black sheep of the Eldar race, hiding in the webway and continuing to rape and pillage just like caused the Eldar to span Slaanesh in the first place, but they are still the same species. Many Dark Eldar were craftworld Eldar that decided the Path wasn't for them and join up for the sensations.

Just like Imperial Guard and Space Marines are still really the same faction, both fighting for humanity and more often in concert than not. No one seems to take issue they can battle brother.

Would you rather have meetings and fight along side your sadistic cousin who may or may not have thrown your pet out a window, or fight alongside a bunch of monkeys and insects who somehow worked out a firearm?

(And for the DE players) Would you rather fight alongside your boring older cousin who thinks your life-style is wrong and you should follow his religion instead, or fight along side a bunch of monkeys you could throw out a window.

Von Chogg

 Von Chogg wrote:
Would you rather have meetings and fight along side your sadistic cousin who may or may not have thrown your pet out a window, or fight alongside a bunch of monkeys and insects who somehow worked out a firearm?

(And for the DE players) Would you rather fight alongside your boring older cousin who thinks your life-style is wrong and you should follow his religion instead, or fight along side a bunch of monkeys you could throw out a window.

Von Chogg

Aren't Eldar about honor, and Dark Eldar kinda go against that?

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Von Chogg wrote:
Would you rather have meetings and fight along side your sadistic cousin who may or may not have thrown your pet out a window, or fight alongside a bunch of monkeys and insects who somehow worked out a firearm?

(And for the DE players) Would you rather fight alongside your boring older cousin who thinks your life-style is wrong and you should follow his religion instead, or fight along side a bunch of monkeys you could throw out a window.

Von Chogg

Aren't Eldar about honor, and Dark Eldar kinda go against that?

Eldar deceive and trick their enemies all the time, the Eldar aren't in favour of honour in the slightest.

 Imposter101 wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Von Chogg wrote:
Would you rather have meetings and fight along side your sadistic cousin who may or may not have thrown your pet out a window, or fight alongside a bunch of monkeys and insects who somehow worked out a firearm?

(And for the DE players) Would you rather fight alongside your boring older cousin who thinks your life-style is wrong and you should follow his religion instead, or fight along side a bunch of monkeys you could throw out a window.

Von Chogg

Aren't Eldar about honor, and Dark Eldar kinda go against that?

Eldar deceive and trick their enemies all the time, the Eldar aren't in favour of honour in the slightest.

So they're evil just like the Dark Eldar then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguity

 ZultanQ wrote:
+1 for the "At least they're still Eldar" posts ITT.

Think about it, in a war IRL, would you more likely to team up with somebody you hate from your country, or a somebody from a completely alien culture who may or may not want to screw you over later depending on the political situation? That guy from your country might be a douche but at least you know he generally has a similar purpose.

Eldar and Dark Eldar are not the same country. Same race but not same country. All humans on Earth are the same race but none of us can get along or agree on much hence all the different countries. Yes the people of Earth would join sides to fight a bigger enemy but we would go back to shooting each other as soon as they were gone. This is the same for the Eldar race. Honestly I don't think a single army should have battle brothers. Even the different chapters of SM's don't really get along.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Von Chogg wrote:
Would you rather have meetings and fight along side your sadistic cousin who may or may not have thrown your pet out a window, or fight alongside a bunch of monkeys and insects who somehow worked out a firearm?

(And for the DE players) Would you rather fight alongside your boring older cousin who thinks your life-style is wrong and you should follow his religion instead, or fight along side a bunch of monkeys you could throw out a window.

Von Chogg

Aren't Eldar about honor, and Dark Eldar kinda go against that?

Eldar deceive and trick their enemies all the time, the Eldar aren't in favour of honour in the slightest.

So they're evil just like the Dark Eldar then?

Well the Eldar are self serving but not sure I would describe them as evil - at least no more than any other faction and much less than Chaos - Orks and Tryanids are more a force of nature and Necrons tend to exterminate or enslave,so pretty much Evil.....The Dark Eldar are pretty evil - andf the Imperium of man is not very nice. Even the Tau appear to have some very dark secrets..................

Sounds like they are allies of convenience rather than Best Buddies, but hey, GW happened.