Why are Dark Eldar and Eldar Battle brothers? Considering DE cause Eldar's genocide...

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**jeffersonian000**

There are two things that tie the Eldar and Dark Eldar together as Battle Brothers are the Harlequins and the Black Library. There is a third Eldar faction not normally represented, the Exodites. However, Exodites only have access to the Black Library through Harlequins. Eldar Pirates are Craftworld Eldar, so not a seperate faction.

SJ

Personal theory: Humans are decended from Eldar Exodites, which accounts for the "Celtic" culture being shared between Humans and Eldar, as well as the RT era "Half-Eldar" hybrids.

**Jimsolo**

There's a third thing: racism.

Eldar, dark or otherwise, are still elves. And if elves are anything, it's racist. If they're any two things, it's snotty and racist.

Even though they consider each other mortal enemies, they'd prefer to fight back-to-back with other elves they hate rather than let some wall-eyed, drooling, apes-in-pants kill an elf and get away with it. And they're Battle Brothers rather than Allies of Convenience because each side knows the other side's racism runs just as deep.

**Mr Morden**

IMO there is virtually no one that should be "Battle Brothers" really - perhaps Astartes / Guard, Sororitas/Guard but that's about it.

Certainly not Tau / Marines.................

**Kroothawk**

Archonate wrote:
DE did not cause the fall. ALL the Eldar caused the fall. After the fall, some decided to change their ways (Craftworld Eldar and Exodites) avoiding excess and keeping soulstones to keep Slaanesh from claiming them. Others decided to shrug and keep doing what they're doing, but within the safety of the Webway so as to not make the same mistake. (DE)

That is not correct: Exodites and Craftworlders left their home planets BEFORE the fall, in protest and searching for a less hedonistic lifestyle. If they hadn't, they would be dead by now, consumed by the eye of terror. So these survivors contributed less to the fall.

Dark Eldar were mostly in the webway during the fall, basically continuing the old hedonistic ways, restricted since before the fall by the proximity to the warp (e.g. no psychics).

So basically all decisions on life styles were made before the fall, not during or after it.

**Archonate**

Kroothawk wrote:
Archonate wrote:
DE did not cause the fall. ALL the Eldar caused the fall. After the fall, some decided to change their ways (Craftworld Eldar and Exodites) avoiding excess and keeping soulstones to keep Slaanesh from claiming them. Others decided to shrug and keep doing what they're doing, but within the safety of the Webway so as to not make the same mistake. (DE)

That is not correct: Exodites and Craftworlders left their home planets BEFORE the fall, in protest and searching for a less hedonistic lifestyle. If they hadn't, they would be dead by now, consumed by the eye of terror. So these survivors contributed less to the fall.

Dark Eldar were mostly in the webway during the fall, basically continuing the old hedonistic ways, restricted since before the fall by the proximity to the warp (e.g. no psychics).

So basically all decisions on life styles were made before the fall, not during or after it.

I thought their distance from the empire at the time of the fall was because they all sensed a horrible change coming. That same feeling is what inspired Asdrubael Vect to escape into the webway and establish Commorragh, if I'm not mistaken... Which I suppose I could be.

In any case, I don't think the CW Eldar blame the DE, but rather they accept responsibility for the event as an entire race.

**Tigramans**

They only pretend not to hate eachother until the common foe has been defeated... or it's just another Gee-Dub's blackout in brainstorming department.

**A GumyBear**

Mr Morden wrote:
IMO there is virtually no one that should be "Battle Brothers" really - perhaps Astartes / Guard, Sororitas/Guard but that's about it.

Certainly not Tau / Marines.................

But tau and marines are both blue so they are clearly better allies then tau and guard which is one of the races that have been incorperated inti the tau empire

**Macok**

Wow.. Sooooo much wrong in this thread I don't even know where to start.
Let's try:
- Eldar are not High Elves, Dark Eldar are not Dark Elves.
- CWE and DE are *NOT* and I cannot stress this enough, mortal enemies. Why this nonsense is repeated? I know, look at first part.
- Neither CWE nor DE want to exterminate any other race. Another nonsense repeated without any ground in the fluff. There is basically a direct contradiction to this in CWE codex. And this was in their murder-Slaanesh-party days. If there is a need for genocide you'd better call IoM, it's their speciality.
- Racism is not the middle ground between CWE and DE. Survival is - not being Slaanesh snacks.

They have the same or very, very similar main goal, language, history, culture, technology, tactics, approach to warfare, physiology etc etc..
There is numerous instances in the books where full armies fight next to each other and fully cooperating.
Why are they BBs? Let me use the perfect quotes by knas ser:

knas ser wrote:

No. I think you misunderstand what Battle Brothers means. And it's been explained by several of us in this thread over more than one post. It means two factions are able to function effectively together and willing to do so. I mean you could have some orks and some elder with a shared goal of krumping some Slaaneshi cultists and they could even be willing to work together. But picture the Autarch and the warboss trying to discuss strategy together. "Delay your reserves and outflank from the North East" on one side, and "you needz ta make yer shooterz louder, they is too quiet" coming from the other. Whereas DE and CWE will fit together like hand and glove. They might watch each other like hawks, but they more than meet the requirements for Battle Brothers. They're the same people!

[...]

I think you're coming from Battle Brothers too much on a how much everyone loves each other basis. An IG commander might want to ally with an CWE force even more than some grudging DE leader does in some specific instance, but she's still going to face the problem of not understanding the capabilities of the Eldar weaponry and vehicles, finding Eldar body language impossible to read, needing a translator instead of just being able to shout "hey, we need you over there" to a bunch of Striking Scorpions, technological incompatibilities ("what do you mean just tune into the psychic network?"), exasperating the Eldar commander by needing everything explained three times more slowly than his own people, her troops freaking out at fighting alongside unnaturally tall women dressed in bone armour with masks that shred their minds, and all manner of problems. I think after an experience like that, most CWE Autarchs would turn to a group of DE and say: "look, just don't stab us in the back because we know where the webway portal is and we've got a ship there" and just enjoy working with someone on his own level again.

**Dalymiddleboro**

Awesome answers guys, really helping to shed light on the situation.

**x13rads**

The #1 rule when reading any Xenos Fluff is...

CONSIDER THE SOURCE

Alot of fluff is written from the perspective of the Imperium, who for the most part, get alot of stuff wrong.

Eldar do not want to kill all the other races and are not racist either. They are specists. To an Eldar other humanoids are no more than insects. If spiders infest your home, you kill them. If ants invade your picnic, you kill them. If bees have set up a nest next to your kids backyard playset, you kill them. Otherwise spiders, ants, and bees do serve other beneficial purposes, but they do not think twice about squishing the spider after it has caught the annoying fly in it's web.

Dark Eldar are the kids that like to pull the legs off of daddy long leg spiders. Or the kids who like to burn ants with a magnifing glass. Or the kids that have the pet praying mantis to watch it eat other bugs(but doesn't think twice about sticking a bigger mantis in there to watch them kill each other).

They are Battle Brothers in every sense of the word. They might fight each other, heck they might not even like each other, but in the end they will team together to kill all the snakes on the plane.

**Spetulhu**

And to look at it from the other side... Very few among other factions can even tell the difference between Craftworlders, Corsairs, Dark Eldar and what-have-you other Eldar groups. No matter which faction attacked you all you can tell is that they're Eldar.

**Dalymiddleboro**

Spetulhu wrote:
And to look at it from the other side... Very few among other factions can even tell the difference between Craftworlders, Corsairs, Dark Eldar and what-have-you other Eldar groups. No matter which faction attacked you all you can tell is that they're Eldar.

The spiky bits and venoms/raiders aren't a dead giveaway that it's not eldar?

**x13rads**

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:
And to look at it from the other side... Very few among other factions can even tell the difference between Craftworlders, Corsairs, Dark Eldar and what-have-you other Eldar groups. No matter which faction attacked you all you can tell is that they're Eldar.

The spiky bits and venoms/raiders aren't a dead giveaway that it's not eldar?

LOL!

I just played a game yesturday where the guy was constantly asking me rules questions that pertained to Dark Eldar and not the Eldar I was playing.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

DE didn't cause the birth of Slanesh, far from it. The Dark Eldar are what happened afterwards, same as the CWE and the Exodites. Whatever you do, remember that the Dark Eldar are the Eldar in their Natural State (minus psy powers) and they are how an Eldar would act if he wasn't born into the strict cultures of the Exodites or the CWE, this is evident by the amount of Eldar who leave such cultures to become Dark Eldar and how few go the other way.

Fluff occasions they worked together.
*Dark Eldar swooped in to Safe an entire Craftworld (Iyanden) from an Ork Waaagh! out of the kindness of their own hearts (and amusement...)
*Dark Eldar, Eldar and Corsairs all live in peace in a webway port city (NOT Comorragh)
*Dark Eldar help Corsairs to gather soulstones from a Crone World which then would be sold to CWE.
*Eldar Autarch cuts off a planets supply lines and leaves it to their DE allies.
*Harlequins act as emissaries between the two.
*Harlequins, DE and CWE work to eject chaos out of the Webway,
*A Dark Eldar shifted to live within a Craftworld, becoming an Aspect Warrior.
*CWE an shift to become Dark Eldar
*Il-Kaithe allies with Dark Eldar against Chaos often
*Ulthwe and Jade Knife Kabal end their war due to the importance of Eldar life

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but that is a lot of instances for armies that utterly hate each other isn't it?

**Lobokai**

Mr Morden wrote:
IMO there is virtually no one that should be "Battle Brothers" really - perhaps Astartes / Guard, Sororitas/Guard but that's about it.

Certainly not Tau / Marines.................

This. A thousand times this. Battle Brothers should only apply for a codex allying with itself. In fact the only cross codex alliances that make any sense are inquisitors and CSM/Daemons... and currently one if those doesn't even work at all.

**Iron_Captain**

Lobukia wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
IMO there is virtually no one that should be "Battle Brothers" really - perhaps Astartes / Guard, Sororitas/Guard but that's about it.

Certainly not Tau / Marines.................

This. A thousand times this. Battle Brothers should only apply for a codex allying with itself. In fact the only cross codex alliances that make any sense are inquisitors and CSM/Daemons... and currently one if those doesn't even work at all.

It also makes sense for DE/CWE and SM/IG, SoB/IG and CSM/IG.

**Co'tor Shas**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
IMO there is virtually no one that should be "Battle Brothers" really - perhaps Astartes / Guard, Sororitas/Guard but that's about it.

Certainly not Tau / Marines.................

This. A thousand times this. Battle Brothers should only apply for a codex allying with itself. In fact the only cross codex alliances that make any sense are inquisitors and CSM/Daemons... and currently one if those doesn't even work at all.

It also makes sense for DE/CWE and SM/IG, SoB/IG and CSM/IG.

IG/Tau, ala gue'vessa. Most SM/fancySM works too.

**blaktoof**

There is no reason, and no fluff support that Dark Eldar and Eldar should be battle brothers.

from the Dark Eldar codex one of the only excerpts about them helping the eldar is titled "An unexpected ally"

unexpected ally doesn't sound like battle brother. Sounds like someone who you would have never expected to show up and help you.

They may not be mortal enemies, but we are not talking about how iyanden feels about Ulthwe here..

The allies matrix however makes them one, and you can gue$$ whatever you want about what the rea$on i$.

**Iron_Captain**

blaktoof wrote:
There is no reason, and no fluff support that Dark Eldar and Eldar should be battle brothers.

from the Dark Eldar codex one of the only excerpts about them helping the eldar is titled "An unexpected ally"

unexpected ally doesn't sound like battle brother. Sounds like someone who you would have never expected to show up and help you.

They may not be mortal enemies, but we are not talking about how iyanden feels about Ulthwe here..

The allies matrix however makes them one, and you can gue$$ whatever you want about what the rea$on i$.

The 'unexpected ally' part is because there were no prior signs that the DE would help out in that particular battle. They arrived unexpectedly and therefore were an unexpected ally. It is not because no one expected that DE would help CWE. If you read more fluff, actually, the DE and CWE do help each other much more frequently.
The Eldar are all the same race, just with different lifestyles, and they work together to achieve their common goals. To the Eldar, there is not that much more distinction between a Craftworld Eldar and a Commorite Eldar (or a Corsair, Exodite, Harlequin or Ranger) than there is between an Eldar from Alaitoc and Saim-Hann. There is plenty of exchange between Commorragh and the Craftworlds. A CWE might decide that the strict Craftworld live is not fit for him and head to Commorragh in order to experience all of his emotions. Similarly, a DE might get fed up by the violence of Commorragh and join a Craftworld. Eldar Corsairs also frequently visit Commorragh and the DE also protect the Eldar Exodites and Crone Worlds.
The Eldar might disagree with each other, but in the end, they still work together, which justifies the Battle Brother status. It would not be strange at all to see an Autarch leading some of his Commorite kin into battle, or an Archon leading his Craftworld allies.

**Dalymiddleboro**

Iron_Captain wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
There is no reason, and no fluff support that Dark Eldar and Eldar should be battle brothers.

from the Dark Eldar codex one of the only excerpts about them helping the eldar is titled "An unexpected ally"

unexpected ally doesn't sound like battle brother. Sounds like someone who you would have never expected to show up and help you.

They may not be mortal enemies, but we are not talking about how iyanden feels about Ulthwe here..

The allies matrix however makes them one, and you can gue$$ whatever you want about what the rea$on i$.
The 'unexpected ally' part is because there were no prior signs that the DE would help out in that particular battle. They arrived unexpectedly and therefore were an unexpected ally. It is not because no one expected that DE would help CWE. If you read more fluff, actually, the DE and CWE do help each other much more frequently.
The Eldar are all the same race, just with different lifestyles, and they work together to achieve their common goals. To the Eldar, there is not that much more distinction between a Craftworld Eldar and a Commorite Eldar (or a Corsair, Exodite, Harlequin or Ranger) than there is between an Eldar from Alaitoc and Saim-Hann. There is plenty of exchange between Commorragh and the Craftworlds. A CWE might decide that the strict Craftworld live is not fit for him and head to Commorragh in order to experience all of his emotions. Similarly, a DE might get fed up by the violence of Commorragh and join a Craftworld. Eldar Corsairs also frequently visit Commorragh and the DE also protect the Eldar Exodites and Crone Worlds.
The Eldar might disagree with each other, but in the end, they still work together, which justifies the Battle Brother status. It would not be strange at all to see an Autarch leading some of his Commorite kin into battle, or an Archon leading his Craftworld allies.

How can a Dark Eldar abandon that lifestyle when they do it to prevent slaanesh from eating their souls?

**ALEXisAWESOME**

blaktoof wrote:
There is no reason, and no fluff support that Dark Eldar and Eldar should be battle brothers.

from the Dark Eldar codex one of the only excerpts about them helping the eldar is titled "An unexpected ally"

unexpected ally doesn't sound like battle brother. Sounds like someone who you would have never expected to show up and help you.

They may not be mortal enemies, but we are not talking about how iyanden feels about Ulthwe here..

The allies matrix however makes them one, and you can gue$$ whatever you want about what the rea$on i$.

Did you even read my post? Because as I have stated, there quite a bi of supporting fluff if you look for it.

Fluff occasions they worked together.
*Dark Eldar swooped in to Safe an entire Craftworld (Iyanden) from an Ork Waaagh! out of the kindness of their own hearts (and amusement...)
*Dark Eldar, Eldar and Corsairs all live in peace in a webway port city (NOT Comorragh)
*Dark Eldar help Corsairs to gather soulstones from a Crone World which then would be sold to CWE.
*Eldar Autarch cuts off a planets supply lines and leaves it to their DE allies.
*Harlequins act as emissaries between the two.
*Harlequins, DE and CWE work to eject chaos out of the Webway,
*A Dark Eldar shifted to live within a Craftworld, becoming an Aspect Warrior.
*CWE an shift to become Dark Eldar
*Il-Kaithe allies with Dark Eldar against Chaos often
*Ulthwe and Jade Knife Kabal end their war due to the importance of Eldar life

**blaktoof**

Yeah I often see people state that there is fluff that supports they are secretly in love with each other, but no one actually quotes any from any source. ever.

If they are such good friends, why do the harlequins have to act as emissaries?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iron_Captain wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
There is no reason, and no fluff support that Dark Eldar and Eldar should be battle brothers.

from the Dark Eldar codex one of the only excerpts about them helping the eldar is titled "An unexpected ally"

unexpected ally doesn't sound like battle brother. Sounds like someone who you would have never expected to show up and help you.

They may not be mortal enemies, but we are not talking about how iyanden feels about Ulthwe here..

The allies matrix however makes them one, and you can gue$$ whatever you want about what the rea$on i$.
The 'unexpected ally' part is because there were no prior signs that the DE would help out in that particular battle. They arrived unexpectedly and therefore were an unexpected ally. It is not because no one expected that DE would help CWE. If you read more fluff, actually, the DE and CWE do help each other much more frequently.
The Eldar are all the same race, just with different lifestyles, and they work together to achieve their common goals. To the Eldar, there is not that much more distinction between a Craftworld Eldar and a Commorite Eldar (or a Corsair, Exodite, Harlequin or Ranger) than there is between an Eldar from Alaitoc and Saim-Hann. There is plenty of exchange between Commorragh and the Craftworlds. A CWE might decide that the strict Craftworld live is not fit for him and head to Commorragh in order to experience all of his emotions. Similarly, a DE might get fed up by the violence of Commorragh and join a Craftworld. Eldar Corsairs also frequently visit Commorragh and the DE also protect the Eldar Exodites and Crone Worlds.
The Eldar might disagree with each other, but in the end, they still work together, which justifies the Battle Brother status. It would not be strange at all to see an Autarch leading some of his Commorite kin into battle, or an Archon leading his Craftworld allies.

if they were unexpected when they arrrived, instead of Iyanden never expected them to help, why then at the end of this fluff section did Iyanden ask why the dark eldar helped?

Simple answer- because they were never expected to help, not that they were not expected to show up. Your painting your house and your bestfriend rolls up with some paint and rollers and you thank them, you don't ask why are you here to help me? You know why, they are your best friend.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

*Dark Eldar swooped in to Safe an entire Craftworld (Iyanden) from an Ork Waaagh! out of the kindness of their own hearts (and amusement...) *Dark Eldar codex, an Unexpected Ally.*
*Dark Eldar, Eldar and Corsairs all live in peace in a webway port city (NOT Comorragh) *Path of the Outcast*
*Dark Eldar help Corsairs to gather soulstones from a Crone World which then would be sold to CWE. *Path of the Outcast*
*Eldar Autarch cuts off a planets supply lines and leaves it to their DE allies. *Eldar Codex*
*Harlequins act as emissaries between the two. *Harlequin entry, path of the Incubus*
*Harlequins, DE and CWE work to eject chaos out of the Webway. *Eye of terror campaign*
*A Dark Eldar shifted to live within a Craftworld, becoming an Aspect Warrior. *Path of the Warrior*
*CWE an shift to become Dark Eldar *Path of the renegade*
*Il-Kaithe allies with Dark Eldar against Chaos often *Eldar Codex*
*Ulthwe and Jade Knife Kabal end their war due to the importance of Eldar life *Eldar Codex*

Sources, done. Your argment is a weak one, you are pinning the entire thing onto your interpreted meaning of unexpected all on one piece of fluff, when there are many other supporting fluff or even novels that support their claim to Battle Brotherhood.

**Lobokai**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
IMO there is virtually no one that should be "Battle Brothers" really - perhaps Astartes / Guard, Sororitas/Guard but that's about it.

Certainly not Tau / Marines.................

This. A thousand times this. Battle Brothers should only apply for a codex allying with itself. In fact the only cross codex alliances that make any sense are inquisitors and CSM/Daemons... and currently one if those doesn't even work at all.

It also makes sense for DE/CWE and SM/IG, SoB/IG and CSM/IG.

Well its all opinion, but no, its doesn't. Dark Eldar leading CWE?! When besides small party/novel type stuff does that ever happen? Military commanders lead their own units, not join others. Even SM allying with SM and then combining into super squads is a stretch.

**Happyjew**

To be fair I always figured the reason for them to be BB is to allow players to form Corsair Raiders, which are made up of 3 of the 4 groups of Eldar (Dark, Craftworld, and Harlequins). Of course if I were to do this, I would not use named characters. Except maybe Karandras attached to a squad of Incubi chilling with Drazher. But that is to make fluff-monkeys cry.

**blaktoof**

Its not an interpreted meaning. The story actually says Iyanden asks why the Dark eldar helped them.

Books cannot be considered cannon fluff, unless we are going to say rhinos and land raiders have multi lasers and farseers are child molesters. 1 person out of billions, maybe trillions converting from the dark eldar lifestyle to the monk like lifestyle of craftworld eldar is a complete anomaly to drive a novel story and not the basis for commonality.

The mention of the eye of terror campaign is a false entry due to being during a edition when eldar and dark eldar had no fluff of getting along, and there were not able to ally within the rules of the game, the fact that they -separately- ejected the thousand sons from the webway is also there. its also mentioned in the eldar codex, and is retconned that the dark eldar were never there, its instead harlequins and two different craftworlds who stop the thousand sons.

War in the webway, Ulthwe versus Dark eldar from 6th edition Eldar codex- Dark eldar are fighting Ulthwe, they agree to an uneasy truce because they value their own lives despite that they mutally loath each other. Battle brothers probably don't normally loathe each other.

as to Il-Kaithe and dark eldar, it does state they will fight chaos no matter what the cost, even allying with Commorragh. If you are allying no matter what the cost, if that cost is implied as being bad, which is what that statement says, that's not a battle brother.

There is 0 information in any codex that supports battle brother status.

**x13rads**

blaktoof wrote:
Books cannot be considered cannon fluff, unless we are going to say rhinos and land raiders have multi lasers and farseers are child molesters. 1 person out of billions, maybe trillions converting from the dark eldar lifestyle to the monk like lifestyle of craftworld eldar is a complete anomaly to drive a novel story and not the basis for commonality.

There is 0 information in any codex that supports battle brother status.

Ok those 2 statements just ruined your whole argument. Now I know not to take you seriously.

**blaktoof**

Lol so when proven.from both the background info from the eldar and dark eldar codex you make strawman statement.

Show me where in the rules reavers can turn missiles.fired at.them back to the firer, since that happened in a novel.

Your comment on my factual.statements is.an invalid opinion with nothing to support it and no attempt to support it and is nothing more than trolling

**x13rads**

blaktoof wrote:
Lol so when proven.from both the background info from the eldar and dark eldar codex you make strawman statement.

Show me where in the rules reavers can turn missiles.fired at.them back to the firer, since that happened in a novel.

Your comment on my factual.statements is.an invalid opinion with nothing to support it and no attempt to support it and is nothing more than trolling

a. The guy gave you examples of fluff that prove his point, and you argue that if it isn't in a Codex it can't be true.

and

b. 40k is a game. Just because someone did it in a novel doesn't mean thay should be able to do it on the tabletop.

example: if Terminators were as tough in the GAME as they are in the FLUFF there would be no reason to even show up to play

**ALEXisAWESOME**

AFAIK Black Libary = Cannon, other Warhammer novels are not . I believe this is because Black Library is a part of Gamesworkshop, so comparing Black Library novels to the travesties that are C.S.Goto's work is like comparing Harry Potter to some Rule 34 1d4chan fanfic, they simply aren't in the same league. Some of your points are just a bit nit-picky though, for example saying that the Eye of Terror fluff doesn't count because AFAIK that is the current chronological Area warhammer is up to, despite Eldrad's magical Resurrection.

In War in the Webway you seem to not understand my point, neither CWE or DE are a unified force so having them fight each other is understandable. My point was that even between to warring factions they will stop fighting because even the lives of those they hate are important enough not to waste.

Il-Kaine uses the word 'readily ally' (readily meaning without hesitation or reluctance) with Commaragh to fight chaos, so by definition, readily allying is the base of battle brothers isn't it?

The culture swapping is about precedence, it doesn't matter that is is rare in the slightest. The fact is that it can happen an is accepted, any faction that can move between each other with little integration are obviously closely linked. Your also forgetting the hundreds of CWE that slowly slip from CWE into Corsairs into Dark Eldar ways.

There is quite a bit of info in codices and Gamesworkshop APPROVED novels to support battle brothers.