can hive tyrants, harpies, crones deepstrike?

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**bthestoner**

so I m having a little problem.

in the 5th edition codex, the harpy and hive tyrant could deep strike.
it seems they cannot anymore.

In the entries from the nid codex for these FMC's it doesn't state they can deep strike.

The entry for flying monstrous creatures in the brb doesn't state they can deep strike.

I believe jump units can deep strike.. is this where the ability comes from?

if you can help me figure this out that'd be great. referencing me the page numbers so I can see it for myself would be even better.

**SBG**

Check page 49 of the big book, under 'deployment' and 'gliding'. They spell out how to deep strike.

Essentially, declare the fmc is arriving in 'glide' mode, which means it's then treated as a 'jump' mc.

**rollawaythestone**

This is a contentious topic.

People in favor of FMC's being allowed to Deep Strike will cite the fact that FMC's "are treated as Jump Monstrous Creatures for purposes of movement" (paraphrasing cause I don't have my BRB on me) or some such. Therefore, the logic goes, they are treated like Jump Troops and may Deep Strike.

There are two things that convince me otherwise.

1). The text itself states that they are treated like Jump Troops for movement purposes. This does not mean they *are* Jump Troops with the same access to Special Rules. Just that they may move like them.

2). In the Jump Troop entry, it specifically gives them access to Deep Strike in their list of Special Rules, which FMC's do not have in their list. If FMC's were supposed to have Deep Strike, why not just list it in their Special Rules list?

Anyway, there are two camps, and this issue is unresolved. I am unsure exactly how the big Tournament FAQ's have ruled on this issue either.

**SBG**

Because Swooping Mcs don't have access to Deep Strike, it doesn't make sense to list it in their special rules.

When you state that they may 'just move like them', are you also of the opinion that they can't be charged, or only can be hit on 6's when being shot at?

**liturgies of blood**

Can you declare it's flying mode before deployment? The FMC rules answer that.
If you don't count as Jump MCs prior to deployment then you cannot use any jump rules then. In general counts as = is in 40k. The potential to counts as means jack all however.

**rollawaythestone**

SBG wrote:
Because Swooping Mcs don't have access to Deep Strike, it doesn't make sense to list it in their special rules.

When you state that they may 'just move like them', are you also of the opinion that they can't be charged, or only can be hit on 6's when being shot at?

Not at all, although I see the ambiguity you raise with your point. Don't have my BRB on me right now, so I don't want to argue too much about it too much. I acknowledge it's a contentious issue and people have different opinions about what the correct ruling is. Just stating my own opinion.

**SBG**

Yeah, the thing is that if you accept the benefits of a 'type' you have to accept the detriments as well. Which is unfortunate because deep striking while swooping would be wicked awesome.

**rollawaythestone**

It's a bit different though. It is clearly stated they only benefit from being hit on 6's and not being able to be charged while they Swoop. Being able to move like Jump Troops while they Glide does not automatically mean they gain all the USR's associated with that type, nor does it mean they still benefit from Swooping.

As an analogy, you are trying to say that if you "move like a MC" you all of a sudden gain Smash.

**JinxDragon**

SBG,
The Flying Monstrous Creature section begins detailing the fact that Flying Monstrous Creatures have different flight modes. While the rules could of been better formatted, there are a few 'all Flying Monstrous Creatures gain X' type rules found under the Swooping heading for example, they are clear enough to inform us which rule is designed for which Flight Mode. The restriction against charging finishes by stating that it only benefits the Swooping Mode. The restriction forcing snap shots against flyers also starts by stating a Swooping Flying Monstrous creature gains X. These rules are clearly limited to just that flight mode, which is why a Grounded Monstrous creature can't claim the benefit of the Hard to Hit rule.

So Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures do not need to be Jump Unit to gain the disadvantage of being charged;
It can be charged simply because it is an enemy model without any rule preventing it from being charged.

**rollawaythestone**

JinxDragon wrote:
SBG,
The Flying Monstrous Creature section begins detailing the fact that Flying Monstrous Creatures have different flight modes. While the rules could of been better formatted, there are a few 'all Flying Monstrous Creatures gain X' type rules found under the Swooping heading for example, they are clear enough to inform us which rule is designed for which Flight Mode. The restriction against charging finishes by stating that it only benefits the Swooping Mode. The restriction forcing snap shots against flyers also starts by stating a Swooping Flying Monstrous creature gains X. These rules are clearly limited to just that flight mode, which is why a Grounded Monstrous creature can't claim the benefit of the Hard to Hit rule.

So Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures do not need to be Jump Unit to gain the disadvantage of being charged;
It can be charged simply because it is an enemy model without any rule preventing it from being charged.

+1! Thanks, I don't have my BRB on me.

**bthestoner**

I feel as if they should be able to, logically if you have wings you should be able to come in from above.
but logic is usually inapplicable in 40k, being such a confusing rule set and all.

As I understand it, in 40k you cant do something unless the rules say you can.

1). The text itself states that they are treated like Jump Troops for movement purposes. This does not mean they *are* Jump Troops with the same access to Special Rules. Just that they may move like them.

2). In the Jump Troop entry, it specifically gives them access to Deep Strike in their list of Special Rules, which FMC's do not have in their list. If FMC's were supposed to have Deep Strike, why not just list it in their Special Rules list?

and I agree with the above statements, it doesn't say that a fmc can deepstrike in its "special rules" after it explains how to use them.

BUT.....

the faq has a line mentioning that if a FMC deepstrikes into a battle field, it comes in swooping.
why would that ruling be there if they could not?

so confusing. I guess this will be a house ruled "they can." until I find some sort of official-ish stance.

**Gunzhard**

Well I'm not sure if this only further complicates things but the BRB FAQ says,

"Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep
Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes."

That could mean, however that Flying Monstrous Creatures (that explicitly have the Deep Strike rule) that arrive via Deep strike etc etc..

**rollawaythestone**

FMC Daemons can Deep Strike, because of their Daemon USR's,right? That FAQ covers those cases.

**bthestoner**

Well I'm not sure if this only further complicates things but the BRB FAQ says,

"Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep
Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes."

That could mean, however that Flying Monstrous Creatures (that explicitly have the Deep Strike rule) that arrive via Deep strike etc etc..

but I don't think that any of them have the special rule in their entries in their respective books.

I know daemon princes from chaos space marines do not.
I know the fmc's from the tyranid codex do not, as that's what sparked this conflict in my gaming group last night.
the daemon's codex I cant speak for as I ve never read it nor do I have it.

and to my knowledge, these are the only books with flying monstrous creatures.

**Happyjew**

The daemon codex does list deep strike under special rules for FMCs. But then, every unit has it so I would not use that as conclusive.

**SBG**

Wait. Deep Striking is a type of movement, right? I mean, you can't assault from it.

Just saying. 'Moves as' might just have something to do with moving, which Deep Strike is closely related to - as it's movement.

The FAQ seems to reinforce this...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if I'm coming across as cranky. Not much sleep.

**liturgies of blood**

SBG wrote:
Wait. Deep Striking is a type of movement, right? I mean, you can't assault from it.

Just saying. 'Moves as' might just have something to do with moving, which Deep Strike is closely related to - as it's movement.

The FAQ seems to reinforce this...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if I'm coming across as cranky. Not much sleep.

Deep strike is not movement. You need to show permission to actually do it.

**PrinceRaven**

The reason we could deep strike FMCs in the last codex was because the FAQ specifically said we could, now that the FAQ is gone we no longer have permission to do so.

**rollawaythestone**

PrinceRaven wrote:
The reason we could deep strike FMCs in the last codex was because the FAQ specifically said we could, now that the FAQ is gone we no longer have permission to do so.

Interesting. I forgot this was in our old FAQ. Good catch.

Q: Can Harpies and Hive Tyrants with the "Wing" biomorph deep strike? (p84)
A:. Yes.

We no longer have this FAQ, however, like you said, and nothing in our new Codex clarified this.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jimsolo just opened up a poll on this topic, here. Go vote for your position.

**coredump**

But was the FAQ giving us a new rule? Or was it only clarifying how the rules already worked?
With GW, unfortunately, there is no way to know.

3 rules to keep in mind:
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactlylike a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units followall of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

**PrinceRaven**

I would like to revise my opinion, coredump has convinced me, they can deep strike.

**grrrfranky**

They use the same special rules for movement, but deployment isn't movement. There doesn't appear to be permission to deep strike as far as I can see.

**PrinceRaven**

They do not use "the same special rules for movement", they use "the same special rules". You are stating a qualifier that does not exist.

**Krellnus**

Going off memory here, you cannot declare a FMC to be swooping or gliding before or during deployment, combine this with the fact that, iirc, if you put a unit in reserve, you must declare how its arriving, whether that be walking on, outflank or deep striking.

Sinc FMCs do not have deep strike at deployment, they cannot chose to arrive by deep strike from reserves and thus must walk on.

**PrinceRaven**

But are they described as moving like jump units?

**Krellnus**

PrinceRaven wrote:
But are they described as moving like jump units?

Do you move in deployment?

**PrinceRaven**

Krellnus wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
But are they described as moving like jump units?

Do you move in deployment?

Does the fact that you are not moving somehow change the description in the rulebook of how they move?

**Krellnus**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Krellnus wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
But are they described as moving like jump units?

Do you move in deployment?

Does the fact that you are not moving somehow change the description in the rulebook of how they move?

If you move like a jump unit, then you have all related special rules, when you move, do you move when you get placed in reserve?

**PrinceRaven**

Krellnus wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Krellnus wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
But are they described as moving like jump units?

Do you move in deployment?

Does the fact that you are not moving somehow change the description in the rulebook of how they move?

If you move like a jump unit, then you have all related special rules, when you move, do you move when you get placed in reserve?

No, but if I am a Flying Monstrous Creature I am described as moving like jump infantry when I'm placed in reserves.

**Krellnus**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Krellnus wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Krellnus wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
But are they described as moving like jump units?

Do you move in deployment?

Does the fact that you are not moving somehow change the description in the rulebook of how they move?

If you move like a jump unit, then you have all related special rules, when you move, do you move when you get placed in reserve?

No, but if I am a Flying Monstrous Creature I am described as moving like jump infantry when I'm placed in reserves.

You do not move in reserves until you arrive, but you must declare how you arrive when you are placed in reserve, not when you arrive, do you have permission to swoop or glide in deployment?