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coredump wrote:
But was the FAQ giving us a new rule? Or was it only clarifying how the rules already worked?
With GW, unfortunately, there is no way to know.

3 rules to keep in mind:
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

I believe this settles it, it seems pretty clear to me

 PrinceRaven wrote:
No, but if I am a Flying Monstrous Creature I am described as moving like jump infantry when I'm placed in reserves.

The underlined is false and the reason it CANNOT Deepstrike.
You only move like a Jump Monstrous Creature when Swooping or Gliding.
If you look at the FMC rules you'll see you can only use one of those movement modes when:
1). It moves
2). It deploys
3). Arrives from reserve.

Until one of those 3 things happen you cannot choose to be Gliding or Swooping.
So when placed in Reserve you are not moving like a JMC, so cannot use Deepstrike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shingen wrote:
I believe this settles it, it seems pretty clear to me

Sadly it doesn't.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
No, but if I am a Flying Monstrous Creature I am described as moving like jump infantry when I'm placed in reserves.

The underlined is false and the reason it CANNOT Deepstrike.
You only move like a Jump Monstrous Creature when Swooping or Gliding.
If you look at the FMC rules you'll see you can only use one of those movement modes when:
1). It moves
2). It deploys
3). Arrives from reserve.

Until one of those 3 things happen you cannot choose to be Gliding or Swooping.
So when placed in Reserve you are not moving like a JMC, so cannot use Deepstrike.

Thank you for being clearer than I.

So what you're saying is that even though Flying Monstrous Creatures are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures, this does not fulfil the requirement of being described as moving like jump units?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So what you're saying is that even though Flying Monstrous Creatures are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures, this does not fulfil the requirement of being described as moving like jump units?

When are they described as moving as Jump Monstrous Creatures?
Only when Swooping or Gliding, agreed?

Not look at the FMC rules, and see when you can choose a movement mode.
1). When it moves,
2). When it deploys,
3). When it arrives from reserve.

At no other time can you select a movement mode.
And until you do, it is neither Swooping nor Gliding.
So when going into reserve it is NOT described at moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So what you're saying is that even though Flying Monstrous Creatures are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures, this does not fulfil the requirement of being described as moving like jump units?

When are they described as moving as Jump Monstrous Creatures?
Only when Swooping or Gliding, agreed?

Not look at the FMC rules, and see when you can choose a movement mode.
1). When it moves,
2). When it deploys,
3). When it arrives from reserve.

At no other time can you select a movement mode.
And until you do, it is neither Swooping nor Gliding.
So when going into reserve it is NOT described at moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Well, they are always described as moving like jump units, the descriptions still there whether or not they're moving. But I suppose if you want to get technical they only really move like a jump unit when moving. Although, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the only time anything moves is when moving.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Well, they are always described as moving like jump units

No they aren't.
That's the point. They ONLY move like JMC when Swooping or Gliding. No other time.

the descriptions still there whether or not they're moving. But I suppose if you want to get technical they only really move like a jump unit when moving. Although, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the only time anything moves is when moving.

Moving has nothing to do with it. It's about selecting Swooping or Gliding.
Until you select one, you are NOT moving like a JMC.
And you can't select one when you go I to reserve.

Correct, I am not moving as a jump unit. This does not change the description of FMC movement.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Correct, I am not moving as a jump unit. This does not change the description of FMC movement.

When in Reserve you cannot choose to Swoop.
You cannot choose to Glide.
The FMC is doing neither.

So can use non of the Jump Monstrous Creature rules.
It is not described as a JMC at this point.
It cannot use a rule it has permission to use.

How then, would you say the rules describe how a Flying Monstrous Creature moves.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How then, would you say the rules describe how a Flying Monstrous Creature moves.

Exactly as the rules say it does.

Now if it's neither Swooping nor Gliding, how is it described?
Like a JMC? No.

It's probably intended that it can deepstrike but with the wording that it has the rules read that you only get the JMC movement and attached USRs when you've made a choice on your movement type for the turn.

It's not the model counts as X all the time, it's the model counts as X when Y. I'd say it's similar to BA librarians having the power that lets them move as jump infantry. They have the potential but until they fulfil the wording they don't get the USRs.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How then, would you say the rules describe how a Flying Monstrous Creature moves.

Exactly as the rules say it does.

Now if it's neither Swooping nor Gliding, how is it described?
Like a JMC? No.

How is it moving but not Swooping or Gliding?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How then, would you say the rules describe how a Flying Monstrous Creature moves.

Exactly as the rules say it does.

Now if it's neither Swooping nor Gliding, how is it described?
Like a JMC? No.

How is it moving but not Swooping or Gliding?

How does going into reserve require it to be moving?
If it's moving, then it must be on the board and has chosen either Swoop or Glide.
If it's in reserve, then you have not been allowed to choose Swoop or Glide. So it cannot be treated as a JMC.

You can't pick one or the other. But is has to be one or the other, we just don't know which one.

This is a binary situation, there are no third options. We don't know if it is 1 or 0. But we do know that those are the *only* choices. And either one gives the DS special rule. therefore....

We don't know exactly why it has the rule, but it must have the rule.

If it doesn't have the rule, than it is something other than Swooping or Gliding..... *please* tell us what that third option is...?? please??

Neither A or B?
Both A or B?

I am going back and forth on the fence over this one but the clear issue here is the lack of rule describing the model in either of the flight modes prior to deployment. I am still having to side more with the 'does not Deep Strike' voice because they are simply stating timing. The model must first gain access to one of two Rule's before they can trigger the third Rule granting Deep Strike, which does come after the point the model would be allowed to Deep Strike. Is there a reason why the model can not just be 'Flying Monstrous Creature' right up to the point the owning player gains access to the Rule granting it to change flight modes?

 grendel083 wrote:
If it's in reserve, then you have not been allowed to choose Swoop or Glide. So it cannot be treated as a JMC.

This sums it up nicely.

coredump wrote:
You can't pick one or the other. But is has to be one or the other, we just don't know which one.

This is a binary situation, there are no third options. We don't know if it is 1 or 0. But we do know that those are the *only* choices. And either one gives the DS special rule. therefore....

We don't know exactly why it has the rule, but it must have the rule.

If it doesn't have the rule, than it is something other than Swooping or Gliding..... *please* tell us what that third option is...?? please??

Has to be?
Must?
Binary?
You're assuming it must be in one of the two flight modes at all times. The rules don't support this.
It's not a binary situation at all.

It's a Flying Monstrous Creature. It has a choice of movement modes. If you haven't chosen one yet, you aren't using either.
It's that simple. There's nothing saying it must exist in one of those modes at all times. Try and get that idea out of your head, the rules don't support it.

If a FMC chooses not to move, is it swooping or gliding? It's neither. Now apply that to before the game starts, and before deployment, since before deployment models haven't moved.

 deviantduck wrote:
If a FMC chooses not to move, is it swooping or gliding?

It is gliding.

 deviantduck wrote:
If a FMC chooses not to move, is it swooping or gliding? It's neither. Now apply that to before the game starts, and before deployment, since before deployment models haven't moved.

While I'd love to have any skimmer, bike etc to have their jink save turn 1.... it doesn't actually work like that.
Prior to turn 1, player 1, all you can do is deploy not move.

The. New codex, does not allow them to deep strike anymore. It's not listed in their profile, so they cannot do it.

Well, here's a fun situation:

A FMC can enter ongoing reserves. While in reserve it "cannot change flight mode", therefore if it was gliding before, it is still gliding while in reserves.

Making sure we follow all of the rules:

-- FMC starts in reserve (required by pg 36 for this to work) and glides onto the board - let's say it arrives T2.

-- T3, FMC swoops off the board and is placed into ongoing reserves. pg 125 says Ongoing Reserves follows the "normal" rules for reserves. So, you tell your opponent that it will be deep striking on the return; this verbal notice is also required by pg 36.

-- T4. FMC Deep strikes while swooping.


RAW wise seems like this would work just fine.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
If a FMC chooses not to move, is it swooping or gliding? It's neither. Now apply that to before the game starts, and before deployment, since before deployment models haven't moved.

While I'd love to have any skimmer, bike etc to have their jink save turn 1.... it doesn't actually work like that.
Prior to turn 1, player 1, all you can do is deploy not move.

i wasn't clear enough, that was my point. It isn't moving, so it's not gliding nor swooping and therefore not a jump unit with the jump unit special rules.

clively wrote:
Well, here's a fun situation:

A FMC can enter ongoing reserves. While in reserve it "cannot change flight mode", therefore if it was gliding before, it is still gliding while in reserves.

Making sure we follow all of the rules:

-- FMC starts in reserve (required by pg 36 for this to work) and glides onto the board - let's say it arrives T2.

-- T3, FMC swoops off the board and is placed into ongoing reserves. pg 125 says Ongoing Reserves follows the "normal" rules for reserves. So, you tell your opponent that it will be deep striking on the return; this verbal notice is also required by pg 36.

-- T4. FMC Deep strikes while swooping.


RAW wise seems like this would work just fine.

Yes, this is the easy way of avoiding an argument and what I normally anyway to guarantee arriving and be able to cast psychic powers turn 1.

Jump Infantry entry states that any unit described as 'moving like' Jump infantry has the Jump Infantry SRs. The only applicable question is whether or not the unit is described as such.

Only while doing X or Y does not matter. The SRs are granted in a broad statement of 'moving like Jump Infantry' and is not stated as conditional, therefore it is not. It does not say 'always moving like JI' or 'while it's moving like JI'. So if the description contains 'moves like JI' it gains the SRs regardless of how conditional the described movement may or may not be.

Is it moving like JI right now? Doesn't matter.

Is it described as 'moving like JI'?
A.Yes -When swooping or gliding it moves like JI
B. No -Only when swooping or gliding, at all other times it does not move like JI.
C. Both -As both A and B are true at different times C is the only answer that will be correct for a model in an unknown state.

Does the JI rule care about the state of the model? No.
Therefore C. The JI rule does not take the state of the model into account so it is both described as 'moving like JI' and not at the same time.

Does the rule care about the negative? No.
The rule only looks for a positive and does not care about the negative and as C contains both, the rule is satisfied and grants the SRs.

Well put, Abandon.

 Abandon wrote:
Is it moving like JI right now? Doesn't matter.

Pure assumption, no fact.
The rule does not say "move like Jump unit, potentially at some point (maybe) in the future"

There is no "does it have potetential to sometimes move as a jump unit?"

The question from that rule is "does it move like a jump unit?"
And at the time it goes I to reserve, the answer is NO.

Saying "no, but in the future it might" does not fulfill the requirement for that rule.

 deviantduck wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
If a FMC chooses not to move, is it swooping or gliding? It's neither. Now apply that to before the game starts, and before deployment, since before deployment models haven't moved.

While I'd love to have any skimmer, bike etc to have their jink save turn 1.... it doesn't actually work like that.
Prior to turn 1, player 1, all you can do is deploy not move.

i wasn't clear enough, that was my point. It isn't moving, so it's not gliding nor swooping and therefore not a jump unit with the jump unit special rules.

This is false. If a FMC chooses not to move, it must be in glide mode. Swoop has a minimum movement requirement. Therefore, if an FMC doesn't move it is automatically in "glide" mode because it cannot legally be in swoop mode and is still a jump monstrous creature.

But at the beginning of the game it hasn't had a chance to move and hasn't "chosen" not to move.

So it's not gliding nor swooping.