Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I say maybe. While I personally don't deep strike FMCs, nobody in my group complains about being done. And in the end I care more for how my group plays it then what the rules actually may be.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The requirement is only that it is described as moving like a jump unit, it is not required to actually be doing so.

And it can only move like a Jump unit if you select glide mode before it moves.

Putting it into reserves and declaring that is wants to DS is not movement so it can not DS. (Unless the FMC in question has the DS USR).

Peopl are trying to do stuff! Quick! Stop them with potatoes!!

I voted yes. Logic was provided, pussyfooting tried to prevent said logic. 6th Edition was poorly written in phases.

Just gonna need to deal with it chaps.

I can't see any advantage to deep striking an FMC... just seems like an unnecessary risk. I think they can deep strike and voted as such .

No.

The FMC is not gliding when it is prepared into reserves; and if it were to come in from reserves gliding that is too late to declare them deepstriking.

BRB pg 49 wrote:DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts the in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserves then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via DeepStrike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes.

If the FMC is deployed at the start of the game, it must start in Glide mode. If you accept the logic that being in glide mode gives the model the Deep Strike special rule then it has the rule but cannot use it because it has already been deployed.

If the FMC is kept in Reserves then it may start the game in either Glide or Swoop mode but you only choose after the model enters play. If you choose glide mode after it enters play and if you accept the logic that being in Glide mode gives the model the Deep Strike special rule then it has the rule but cannot use it because it has already been deployed.

If the FMC is kept in Reserves and arrives via DeepStrike it will be in Swoop mode. If you accept the logic that being in Glide mode gives the model the Deep Strike special rule then the model cannot gain Deep Strike from being in glide mode until the turn after it arrives. For it to arrive via Deep Strike it must have deep strike from something other then being in Glide mode because the model cannot arrive in glide mode.

How are models that do not have deep strike arriving via deep strike?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The requirement is only that it is described as moving like a jump unit, it is not required to actually be doing so.

And it can only move like a Jump unit if you select glide mode before it moves.

Putting it into reserves and declaring that is wants to DS is not movement so it can not DS. (Unless the FMC in question has the DS USR).

Deep Striking counts as moving.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The requirement is only that it is described as moving like a jump unit, it is not required to actually be doing so.

And it can only move like a Jump unit if you select glide mode before it moves.

Putting it into reserves and declaring that is wants to DS is not movement so it can not DS. (Unless the FMC in question has the DS USR).

Deep Striking counts as moving.

And that moving does not happen until after you have prepared reserves(which is not moving)

And FMC that deep strike have to do it in Swoop mode. Even if being in Glide mode gave you deep strike you can't use to actually deep strike!

 DeathReaper wrote:

And it can only move like a Jump unit if you select glide mode before it moves..

It moves like JI in Glide *and* and Swoop modes...

coredump wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

And it can only move like a Jump unit if you select glide mode before it moves..

It moves like JI in Glide *and* and Swoop modes...

I know that, you missed what I was saying...

The point is when you try to declare Deep Strike for a FMC it is not swooping or gliding and does not gain the DS rule from those movement modes as the creature is being put into reserves, and not moving, and we all know that you pick Swooping or gliding just before the FMC moves, which is well after reserves are declared...

FMC can not DS unless they have the DS rule listed in their special rules...

The FMC can only move two ways. Glide, or Swoop. That is it. It will always be in one mode or the other, there are no other choices. The rule do not mention the existence of a 'neutral' option. There is nothing in the rules allowing you to pick 'neither'.

Granted, there is no way to know what the FMC is doing until it is declared upon deployment... but it has no option but to be doing one or the other.

In either case, it has the Deep Strike special rule. So, while we don't know for sure what mode it is in prior to deployment, we know that it must have the Deep Strike special rule.

If you are going to assert that the FMC is neither GLiding nor Swooping, then you must be able to state what it *is* doing, and you must be able to demonstrate where the rules allow for that.

The only FMC that I see that has the DS rules is in Deamons codex. If there is another I would like to see the codex and page number please.

There is a third 'mode' for flying monstrous creatures that hasn't been mentioned:
Grounded.

I do have to side with the people stating that it needs to be in either of the two states to gain the deep strike rule, which timing makes impossible, are correct because a lot of times it does all come down to timing. They do not need to prove what 'mode' the flying monstrous creature is in prior to deployment because they are putting forth the only way a Flying Monstrous Creature gains the Deep-Strike Rule is to be in one of these two specific modes. It is up to the people wishing to Deep Strike the Flying Monstrous creature to prove that it's default state, before deployment, is one of these two modes. That is how a permissive based rule-set works, the side wishing to do X needs to quite a page and paragraph granting permission to do X. Until then it is irrelevant what mode the Flying Monstrous creature is in.

It could be in 'floating around the moon mode' for all it matters to the Glide, Swooping and 'changing Mode' sub-set's of Rules.

Personally;
I don't mind them Deep Striking for the same reason I like the new Sky-Shield sub-set of rules allowing the deployment of a flier ahead of the front lines: They both force the deploying unit into a mode which lacks the Hard to Hit Rule. This allows a full turn of firing, likely at a time when all of the non-deploying players strong hitters are in prime positions, to take full advantage of not having to worry about Snap Shot or loosing their valuable anti-vehicle/monstrous creature weapons that happen to also be Blast Marker based. If the vehicle or monstrous creature survives a single round at that point it will still be greatly crippled, more then enough that standard Anti-Air go-to will have no problem taking it out for good.

These Special Rules always look good on paper, but unless you have full control over the terrain itself they often become nothing more then death traps for very expensive units.

coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

I like this presentation. It is close to what I feel about the whole argument. I vote yes... YES WE CAN!

 djphranq wrote:

coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

I like this presentation. It is close to what I feel about the whole argument. I vote yes... YES WE CAN!

It is nice.
But missing vital parts.
And sadly wrong.

 grendel083 wrote:

 djphranq wrote:

coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

I like this presentation. It is close to what I feel about the whole argument. I vote yes... YES WE CAN!

It is nice.
But missing vital parts.
And sadly wrong.

Probably... but its still close to how I feel about the argument.

coredump wrote:
The FMC can only move two ways. Glide, or Swoop. That is it. It will always be in one mode or the other, there are no other choices. The rule do not mention the existence of a 'neutral' option. There is nothing in the rules allowing you to pick 'neither'.

Granted, there is no way to know what the FMC is doing until it is declared upon deployment... but it has no option but to be doing one or the other.

I'm sorry, this is pure assumption that you cannot back up.
You are right in that you can not pick neither. But the model is in fact neither until one of them is chosen.
No rule allows you to pick one of these modes during reserve.
The times that you pick the modes are very clearly laid out, and not one includes reserve.
You're trying to select a movement mode when you have no permission to do so.

In either case, it has the Deep Strike special rule. So, while we don't know for sure what mode it is in prior to deployment, we know that it must have the Deep Strike special rule.

Again not correct. swooping and gliding have deep strike.
But you haven't chosen either of those, so have no permission to use them.

If you are going to assert that the FMC is neither GLiding nor Swooping, then you must be able to state what it *is* doing, and you must be able to demonstrate where the rules allow for that.

Why? Why must it have a state?
What rule dictates that it must be swooping or gliding? None at all.
The state is "Flying Monstrous Creature"
And until it selects either Swooping or Gliding it has no permission to use either.
And no rule anywhere states that it must be using one of those in reserve. No rule at all.

The *rules* allow for gliding and they allow for Swooping. Can you present a rule that allows for any other state?

Where in the rules does it allow for a third possibility?

As far as the rules are concerned, a FMC *always* moves like JI, just sometimes it has a few exceptions.

The way I understand the rule is that "for movement purposes" a gliding Flying Monstrous Creature works like a jump infantry unit.

It doesn't say anywhere it also gains deep strike. Deep strike is a deployment thing, rather than a movement thing. So, I would say no it doesn't also gain deep strike as that is not something "for movement purposes."

That is simply how I would play it. RAW is murky on the issue, and I believe RAI is even murkier on the subject. Considering the poll results, looks like this is a pretty devisive issue so I'd definitely at least mark this in the "talk about it with the TO or your opponent first regardless" category.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The way I understand the rule is that "for movement purposes" a gliding Flying Monstrous Creature works like a jump infantry unit.

Actually, a Jump Monstrous Creature, they do when Swooping as well.

It doesn't say anywhere it also gains deep strike.

Apart from in the Jump rules, you mean?

Deep strike is a deployment thing, rather than a movement thing. So, I would say no it doesn't also gain deep strike as that is not something "for movement purposes."

Where is this "for movement purposes" you seem to be quoting?

Doesn't it say for Flying Monstrous Creature that a "gliding Monstrous Creature counts as a Jump Monstrous Creature for the purposes of movement"?

I don't have my book on me to get the exact quote so sorry if I'm off a little bit.

coredump wrote:
The *rules* allow for gliding and they allow for Swooping. Can you present a rule that allows for any other state?

Where in the rules does it allow for a third possibility?

As far as the rules are concerned, a FMC *always* moves like JI, just sometimes it has a few exceptions.

Where in the rules allows you to choose to be Swooping or Gliding when you go into Deepstrike reserve?
Please answer that.

No where. Not one place. Not one rule. None.

Swooping or Gliding hasn't be chosen. There is no magic third state. It's simply a choice that has not yet been made.
Yes it always moves like a JMC. But you're not moving, you're going into reserve. And you CANNOT go into reserve as a JMC.

Under Gliding it states: "it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Yes it does.
Yet when you go into reserve the model is not in Swoop or Glide mode.
So how can it use those rules?
It can't.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves , runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Your words via the BRB ...Where in those words does it give permission to DS if put in reserves. I see where it is given permission to MOVE like JI but that is done while it is on the board.

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Right here, OIIIIIIO.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves , runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Your words via the BRB ...Where in those words does it give permission to DS if put in reserves. I see where it is given permission to MOVE like JI but that is done while it is on the board.

It is described as 'moving like' a Jump unit...therefore it follows all the rules for jump units, and may use all the same special rules.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves , runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Your words via the BRB ...Where in those words does it give permission to DS if put in reserves. I see where it is given permission to MOVE like JI but that is done while it is on the board.

The description of FMC movement says that they move like Jump units. The requirement to gain the special rules of Jump units is that they are described as moving like jump units. How the model is treated is irrelevant, it is the description that matters.

Edited the original post to update with the most cogent and current arguments.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves , runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Your words via the BRB ...Where in those words does it give permission to DS if put in reserves. I see where it is given permission to MOVE like JI but that is done while it is on the board.

The description of FMC movement says that they move like Jump units. The requirement to gain the special rules of Jump units is that they are described as moving like jump units. How the model is treated is irrelevant, it is the description that matters.

No it doesn't.
It does not say a FMC moves like a Jump unit.

ONLY when swooping or Gliding can it move like that.

The model can do neither of those when in reserve. So cannot use the rules for something it is not.