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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 03:49:57
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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JinxDragon wrote:There is a third 'mode' for flying monstrous creatures that hasn't been mentioned:
Grounded.
Probably because a Grounded FMC is treated as if in Glide mode.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 04:02:28
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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grendel083 wrote: PrinceRaven wrote: OIIIIIIO wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:Under Gliding it states: " it moves , runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
Under Swooping it states: " it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."
Your words via the BRB ...Where in those words does it give permission to DS if put in reserves. I see where it is given permission to MOVE like JI but that is done while it is on the board.
The description of FMC movement says that they move like Jump units. The requirement to gain the special rules of Jump units is that they are described as moving like jump units. How the model is treated is irrelevant, it is the description that matters.
No it doesn't.
It does not say a FMC moves like a Jump unit.
ONLY when swooping or Gliding can it move like that.
The model can do neither of those when in reserve. So cannot use the rules for something it is not.
Can you name any unit that moves like something while not moving?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/29 04:03:17
Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 04:35:13
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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PrinceRaven wrote: grendel083 wrote:
It does not say a FMC moves like a Jump unit.
ONLY when swooping or Gliding can it move like that.
The model can do neither of those when in reserve. So cannot use the rules for something it is not.
Can you name any unit that moves like something while not moving?
irrelevant PrinceRaven.
The fact remains that you only choose swooping or gliding immediately before the FMC moves. This happens well after the FMC was put into reserves, and therefore may not make the choice to DS if it does not have the DS USR in its special rules because the FMC is not moving and can not choose swoop or glide yet. Therefore you may not reference the rules for Jump MC's to access the DS rule.
This is understood right?
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/23 19:43:18
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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DeathReaper wrote: PrinceRaven wrote: grendel083 wrote:
It does not say a FMC moves like a Jump unit.
ONLY when swooping or Gliding can it move like that.
The model can do neither of those when in reserve. So cannot use the rules for something it is not.
Can you name any unit that moves like something while not moving?
irrelevant PrinceRaven.
The fact remains that you only choose swooping or gliding immediately before the FMC moves. This happens well after the FMC was put into reserves, and therefore may not make the choice to DS if it does not have the DS USR in its special rules because the FMC is not moving and can not choose swoop or glide yet. Therefore you may not reference the rules for Jump MC's to access the DS rule.
This is understood right?
Arriving via DS counts as moving per p36, which invalidates your argument.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 04:56:58
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Hellish Haemonculus
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The BRB doesn't say "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules when they are moving." It just says "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Flying Monstrous Creatures are, in fact, described as moving like Jump units.
Therefore they use all the same special rules.
Jump units gain the Deep Strike rule.
Therefore, Flying Monstrous Creatures may in fact Deep Strike.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/29 07:38:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 05:03:07
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Jimsolo wrote:The BRB doesn't say "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules when they are moving." It just says "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Jump Monstrous Creatures are, in fact, described as moving like Jump units.
Therefore they use all the same special rules.
Jump units gain the Deep Strike rule.
Therefore, Jump Monstrous Creatures may in fact Deep Strike.
Boom! I like this too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 05:23:55
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Jimsolo wrote:The BRB doesn't say "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules when they are moving." It just says "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Jump Monstrous Creatures are, in fact, described as moving like Jump units.
Therefore they use all the same special rules.
Jump units gain the Deep Strike rule.
Therefore, Jump Monstrous Creatures may in fact Deep Strike.
Flyers move like fast skimmers when they hover, does that me they get the jink rule for moving too?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 05:30:24
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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No, the skimmer entry does not state that units that move like Skimmers gain their special rules, and the Hover entry states that Hovering Flyers are treated exactly like Skimmers, not that they move like them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/29 05:30:41
Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 06:22:06
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Hellish Haemonculus
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BRB page 81 wrote:If a Flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer.
BRB page 83 wrote:Skimmers have the Jink special rule.
Therefore, a hovering Flyer has Jink.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/29 06:22:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 07:36:02
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Jimsolo wrote:The BRB doesn't say "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules when they are moving." It just says "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Jump Monstrous Creatures are, in fact, described as moving like Jump units.
Therefore they use all the same special rules.
Jump units gain the Deep Strike rule.
Therefore, Jump Monstrous Creatures may in fact Deep Strike.
Jim, this is very compelling. Although i think you man Flying Monstrous Creatures, not Jump Monstrous Creatures. I agree that a FMC in glide more or swoop mode with have the deep strike special rule, but where is the permission for the FMC to be in glide mode or swoop mode before it enters play?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/05 06:40:04
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Hellish Haemonculus
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Edited, DJ. Thanks for the correction!
To answer your question: it doesn't require permission to be in Glide or Swoop mode before entering play in order to gain the Deep Strike rule. The wording of the quoted rule on p47 isn't worded like that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 07:51:34
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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HappyJew,
Ah, Frequently Asked Question's we meet again....
Wonder why they changed it, I thought the rule was clear enough that a Grounded Flying Creature could not be considered Swooping which is where all the goodies are. Treating it as a gliding monstrous creature doesn't change anything at all, it will be Grounded during the opponents turn where it can't use any of the Jump Unit Rules until after it already gets the choice between flight modes for the following turn. For all real purposes a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and a Jump Unit would be identical in the situations they would find themselves in.
Unless there is a situation I am missing that would effect units which 'move like Jump Units' that I can't fathom?
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8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 08:11:01
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Fragile wrote: DeathReaper wrote: PrinceRaven wrote: grendel083 wrote:
It does not say a FMC moves like a Jump unit.
ONLY when swooping or Gliding can it move like that.
The model can do neither of those when in reserve. So cannot use the rules for something it is not.
Can you name any unit that moves like something while not moving?
irrelevant PrinceRaven.
The fact remains that you only choose swooping or gliding immediately before the FMC moves. This happens well after the FMC was put into reserves, and therefore may not make the choice to DS if it does not have the DS USR in its special rules because the FMC is not moving and can not choose swoop or glide yet. Therefore you may not reference the rules for Jump MC's to access the DS rule.
This is understood right?
Arriving via DS counts as moving per p36, which invalidates your argument.
Not at all, as you are not gliding or Swooping when you try to place the FMC into reserves to have it DS.
Please try again.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 08:27:14
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Jimsolo wrote:Edited, DJ. Thanks for the correction!
To answer your question: it doesn't require permission to be in Glide or Swoop mode before entering play in order to gain the Deep Strike rule. The wording of the quoted rule on p47 isn't worded like that.
Page 47 "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. "
Page 49 " If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges like a Jump Monstrous Creature. "
Also Page 49 "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..."
Conclusion, if a FMC is Gliding or Swooping it uses the same special rules as a Jump unit. Page 47 only applies to a FMC that is gliding or swooping because page 49 only describes the unit as 'moving like' a Jump unit if the FMC is gliding or if the FMC is swooping. Permission to be either gliding or swooping is most definitely required.
Where is the permission to be gliding or swooping before the model enters play?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 08:30:36
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Hellish Haemonculus
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Hmmm. You make an interesting point.
Can you think of any other situation, other than being in Reserve, where the unit is neither Swooping nor Gliding, and wouldn't count as being a Jump unit?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 08:33:41
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Jimsolo wrote:Hmmm. You make an interesting point.
Can you think of any other situation, other than being in Reserve, where the unit is neither Swooping nor Gliding, and wouldn't count as being a Jump unit?
Dead or inside a transport
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/29 08:34:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 08:45:19
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Jimsolo wrote:Hmmm. You make an interesting point.
Can you think of any other situation, other than being in Reserve, where the unit is neither Swooping nor Gliding, and wouldn't count as being a Jump unit?
That depends, what does 'at the start of its move' mean? A flight mode only lasts until the start of the FMC's next turn. If 'at the start of its move' means the start of its movement phase then no, until the model is dead it will not stop being in one of the two flight modes. If however that statement means before the model itself make a move then any FMC that has not moved since the start of the the turn after it chose its last flight mode would be neither gliding or swooping.
For the record, I believe that statement is meant to be the start of the movement phase, but that's a whole other discussion. The idea that there may not be any other situations where a FMC is neither gliding or swooping is insignificant to the discussion at hand. There is indeed one situation where it is neither gliding or swooping and it is the only situation relevant to this discussion.
Page 49 makes it very clear that when deploying a FMC that has been kept in Reserves the model is not gliding or swooping until after it enters play. Without permission to 'move like' a jump unit before it enters play I don't see how page 47 lets it enter play via Deep Strike.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/29 08:47:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 09:24:00
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Look its simple. There is a rule called "THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE". That is, you must use your common sense to resolve any issues with rule problems, in a gentlemanly, or ladylike, fashion.
In this instacen the sensible answer is obviously that flying creatures could easily start by flying over the battlefield and dropping down during the game (deep strike). THis is obvious, blantant and common sense, so is "following "the most important rule".
To argue silly and counter intuitive interpretations of rule wording errors is both tedious and not fun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 09:51:55
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:Look its simple. There is a rule called "THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE". That is, you must use your common sense to resolve any issues with rule problems, in a gentlemanly, or ladylike, fashion.
In this instacen the sensible answer is obviously that flying creatures could easily start by flying over the battlefield and dropping down during the game (deep strike). THis is obvious, blantant and common sense, so is "following "the most important rule".
To argue silly and counter intuitive interpretations of rule wording errors is both tedious and not fun.
The most important rule has no place in YMDC. Also discussions of what is sensible but not framed out in the rules have no place here either.
It makes perfect sense to me that the crew of my land raider can open the front hatch long enough for a rocket launcher carried by one of the marines embarked inside to be fired at an enemy unit in front of the land raider. But the land raider, in the rules. has no fire points or special rule that would allow such a sensible action to actually take place in the game. It would also be sensible that a flyer with a hover mode could easily start by flying over the battlefield and dropping down during the game (deep strike). Its obvious, blatant and common sense. Its not allowed becouse flyers don't have deep strike. Neither does a FMC that is not gliding or swooping. The game clearly defines when a FMC can start gliding or swooping and it does not allow for this before the model enters play.
To argue what is sensible instead of what is allowed by the rules is silly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 10:09:03
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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Solution;
Fly off the board during first turn. (Maybe even get a VS in)
Deep Strike back in on second turn.
??
The FMC retains it's movement type when entering ongoing reserves... So at that point it will be 'moving like' for the duration it is in reserves.
I think it's likely the intent is there, but they didn't realize the rules. I mean, there is no 3rd state a FMC can be in. Its moves like Jump when Swooping, it moves like Jump when Gliding, and they are the only rules which describe how a FMC move, there is no case where the FMC does not move like a Jump unit. I mean, it would struggle to come out of reserves at all with no permission to move <at all>.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, entering from reserves is movement, FMC can't move because it is not in either mode at the start of its move. The world crashes down.
Can it not declare which mode before entering? Can you only declair while on the board? It's the only way it can move and enter from reserves any way surly?
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2014/01/29 10:36:05
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 10:36:27
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Sneaky Lictor
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OIIIIIIO wrote:The only FMC that I see that has the DS rules is in Deamons codex. If there is another I would like to see the codex and page number
This potentially solve the argument.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 10:47:46
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Nem wrote:Solution;
Fly off the board during first turn. (Maybe even get a VS in)
Deep Strike back in on second turn.
??
The FMC retains it's movement type when entering ongoing reserves... So at that point it will be 'moving like' for the duration it is in reserves.
I think it's likely the intent is there, but they didn't realize the rules. I mean, there is no 3rd state a FMC can be in. Its moves like Jump when Swooping, it moves like Jump when Gliding, and they are the only rules which describe how a FMC move, there is no case where the FMC does not move like a Jump unit. I mean, it would struggle to come out of reserves at all with no permission to move <at all>.
I agree that a swooping flyer in ongoing reserves would have the deep strike special rule. There are a few problems with this idea though...
1) For a unit to arrive via Deep strike it must have started the game in reserves not just be in reserves when you want to deep strike. Although it looks like it would be possible for a model with the deep strike special rule that started the game in reserves, come into the game, then go into ongoing reserves on a later turn and arrive via deep strike the next turn.
2) A FMC that does not start the game in reserves must start the game in glide mode and a FMC in glide mode cannot enter ongoing reserves. It would need permission to change flight modes and be swooping before it can leave combat air space. If 'at the start of its move' means the start of the movement phase then the FMC would not be able to enter ongoing reserves until turn 2. If 'at the start of its move' means the FMC can change flight modes when the player decides to start moving that model then the FMC could start the game in glide, then enter swoop mode and leave combat airspace during its 1st turn. The second interpretation however would mean a FMC that does not move during its 2nd or later turn will neither be swooping or flying until it does move.
3) The FMC would still be able to be shot at before it leaves combat airspace.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/29 10:53:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 11:17:42
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Regular Dakkanaut
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DJGietzen wrote:
The most important rule has no place in YMDC. Also discussions of what is sensible but not framed out in the rules have no place here either.
It makes perfect sense to me that the crew of my land raider can open the front hatch long enough for a rocket launcher carried by one of the marines embarked inside to be fired at an enemy unit in front of the land raider. But the land raider, in the rules. has no fire points or special rule that would allow such a sensible action to actually take place in the game. It would also be sensible that a flyer with a hover mode could easily start by flying over the battlefield and dropping down during the game (deep strike). Its obvious, blatant and common sense. Its not allowed becouse flyers don't have deep strike. Neither does a FMC that is not gliding or swooping. The game clearly defines when a FMC can start gliding or swooping and it does not allow for this before the model enters play.
To argue what is sensible instead of what is allowed by the rules is silly.
Its attitudes like that that make the game not fun to play. I can see playing against you would result in endless round-around arguments that make the game drag on and impede the fun (I am a stubborn beep-hole it must be said!)
The most important rule is a valid rule written in the rule book. ITS AN OFFICIAL RULE! I would be happy to discuss all these rules with my opponent before play. The missile launcher is a good call, Id say that my opponent can do it, but it means I get to shoot at him.....as for fliers DS why not allow it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 11:25:19
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:
Its attitudes like that that make the game not fun to play. I can see playing against you would result in endless round-around arguments that make the game drag on and impede the fun (I am a stubborn beep-hole it must be said!)
The most important rule is a valid rule written in the rule book. ITS AN OFFICIAL RULE! I would be happy to discuss all these rules with my opponent before play. The missile launcher is a good call, Id say that my opponent can do it, but it means I get to shoot at him.....as for fliers DS why not allow it?
You realise that you are in a forum that is there to figure out how the rules work? Of course we could just put our models on the table and make pew pew noises and remove casualties as we like while forging a narrative.
If house rules are your thing ... fine ... they are fun and theres another sub forum for debating them. The Proposed Rules Forum.
This forum is about figuring out the rules and has rules itself which are manifested in the tenets. I suggest reading these tenets before posting here. One of them is that the "most important rule" has no place in a discussion here.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/29 11:28:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 11:29:55
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Ramshackle_Curtis wrote: The most important rule is a valid rule written in the rule book. ITS AN OFFICIAL RULE! I would be happy to discuss all these rules with my opponent before play. The missile launcher is a good call, Id say that my opponent can do it, but it means I get to shoot at him.....as for fliers DS why not allow it?
Yes it's an official rule, but it has no place in a rules discussion.
How can you discuss rules properly when another rule exists that says "ignore the rules, roll a dice!" ?
It's a rule that works as a quick fix when you don't know how a rule should work. Here we're working out the problem properly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 11:35:37
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ramshackle_Curtis wrote: DJGietzen wrote:
The most important rule has no place in YMDC. Also discussions of what is sensible but not framed out in the rules have no place here either.
It makes perfect sense to me that the crew of my land raider can open the front hatch long enough for a rocket launcher carried by one of the marines embarked inside to be fired at an enemy unit in front of the land raider. But the land raider, in the rules. has no fire points or special rule that would allow such a sensible action to actually take place in the game. It would also be sensible that a flyer with a hover mode could easily start by flying over the battlefield and dropping down during the game (deep strike). Its obvious, blatant and common sense. Its not allowed becouse flyers don't have deep strike. Neither does a FMC that is not gliding or swooping. The game clearly defines when a FMC can start gliding or swooping and it does not allow for this before the model enters play.
To argue what is sensible instead of what is allowed by the rules is silly.
Its attitudes like that that make the game not fun to play. I can see playing against you would result in endless round-around arguments that make the game drag on and impede the fun (I am a stubborn beep-hole it must be said!)
The most important rule is a valid rule written in the rule book. ITS AN OFFICIAL RULE! I would be happy to discuss all these rules with my opponent before play. The missile launcher is a good call, Id say that my opponent can do it, but it means I get to shoot at him.....as for fliers DS why not allow it?
How I discuses rules on this forum and how I play are two different things. Please read the tenants of this forum, they are stickied at the top and take note of number 7.
7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule ( TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 11:55:12
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Using Inks and Washes
St. George, Utah
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After thinking about it and re-reading everything in the book itself, I actually change my position. I'm of the mind now that they can deep strike. If both modes that a flying monstrous creature has to be in (regardless of when it's declared which is which) state it counts as moving like a jump unit, and it says all units which "count as moving like a jump unit" gain all relevant special abilities, AND jump units gain Deep Strike, a flying monstrous creature would also have Deep Strike.
I would also say a Monstrous Creature doing so would always count as being in Glide mode as it couldn't move 12"-24" in the movement phase.
I think my initial reaction was largely based on me feeling like it'd be "overpowered" but the more I think about it, it'd actually be somewhat of a detriment to deep strike a flying monstrous creature onto the battlefield anyway, barring someone using weird deployment shenanigans. If you hide it out of LOS on turn 1, it'll get to where it needs to go by turn 2 regardless of movement types you use in the first two turns, whereas if you deep strike it, you'd risk it not being where it needs to go, you'd risk it getting shot to death from not being in swoop mode, and you'd risk it not coming in til turn 4.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 12:08:47
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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SRSFACE wrote:After thinking about it and re-reading everything in the book itself, I actually change my position. I'm of the mind now that they can deep strike. If both modes that a flying monstrous creature has to be in (regardless of when it's declared which is which) state it counts as moving like a jump unit, and it says all units which "count as moving like a jump unit" gain all relevant special abilities, AND jump units gain Deep Strike, a flying monstrous creature would also have Deep Strike.
Problem with that is, when it goes into reserve it can't be Swooping or Gliding. The rules are very clear on when you can choose one of those.
Both modes do indeed say they move like Jump, but the model can't be using either at that stage.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 12:10:09
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Fireknife Shas'el
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The FMCs are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures creatures and use their rules. That's all that matters.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/29 12:14:31
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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SRSFACE wrote:After thinking about it and re-reading everything in the book itself, I actually change my position. I'm of the mind now that they can deep strike. If both modes that a flying monstrous creature has to be in (regardless of when it's declared which is which) state it counts as moving like a jump unit, and it says all units which "count as moving like a jump unit" gain all relevant special abilities, AND jump units gain Deep Strike, a flying monstrous creature would also have Deep Strike.
Why do you think that a flying monstrous creature has to be in one of two modes? Where is the permision for it to be in one of those two modes before the start of its move and before it enters play?
SRSFACE wrote:I would also say a Monstrous Creature doing so would always count as being in Glide mode as it couldn't move 12"-24" in the movement phase.
Although the BRB faq does not tell use all FMC can arrive via deep strike, it does tell us that if one does, it arrives in swoop mode.
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