Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DeathReaper wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
I think this one is pretty clear. "Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

Jump Units have the Bulky and Deep Strike rules. If you declare that you are bringning in an FMC via Glide Mode, then you can Deep Strike him, or choose not to.

I think what is going on here is the OP doesn't want his opponents to DS FMCs and is using the tried and true "RAW is fuzzy"

But it's not. It just takes some extra reading.

"Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

When putting a FMC into reserves is it Gliding?

No? then it does not have access to the DS rule.

Besides, who cares if someone DS'ed their FMC, you get a whole turn of free shooting at it, and it's in glide mode... so no skyfire needed!

you might want to retract that...

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via DeepStrike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes.

You argue against me and yet, then you post a FAQ that clearly states what is going on? Okay, so you can DS in both modes. So what's your point? The damn FMC can Deep Strike. End of story.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
I think this one is pretty clear. "Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

Jump Units have the Bulky and Deep Strike rules. If you declare that you are bringning in an FMC via Glide Mode, then you can Deep Strike him, or choose not to.

I think what is going on here is the OP doesn't want his opponents to DS FMCs and is using the tried and true "RAW is fuzzy"

But it's not. It just takes some extra reading.

"Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

When putting a FMC into reserves is it Gliding?

No? then it does not have access to the DS rule.

Besides, who cares if someone DS'ed their FMC, you get a whole turn of free shooting at it, and it's in glide mode... so no skyfire needed!

you might want to retract that...

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via DeepStrike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes.

So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

You follow the damn rules on page 49 that tells you to declare which mode you are in when it enters play.

Fragile wrote:So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

BRB Pg49 under Deployment wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

You decide as soon as it enters play, after it has been deployed.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

Since you pick before moving the model, you pick...

Which requires you to pick while off the board?

BRB wrote: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

Now, you can debate if entering play is when it arrives from reserves or when it moves onto the board (there's no real difference, but it has the potential to matter) but you have explicit permission to choose when it comes into play and then physically move the model on to the board.

If it follows all special rules then yes.

darkcloak wrote:
You argue against me and yet, then you post a FAQ that clearly states what is going on? Okay, so you can DS in both modes. So what's your point? The damn FMC can Deep Strike. End of story.

No, the FAQ explains what mode a FMC that can deep must arrive in. It however does nothing to tell us IF a FMC can deep strike.

Yes it does... it has everything associated with a jump pack or wings. Stop making it harder than it is.

It has all of those rules while moving ... this is very explicit. You need to be able to move to have said rules. You can only move while it is considered on the table, not while in reserves. You can not move while in reserves. While you are in reserves you do not have JI rules, therefore are ineligible to Deep Strike.

A deep strike is obviously a move.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
It has all of those rules while moving ... this is very explicit. You need to be able to move to have said rules. You can only move while it is considered on the table, not while in reserves. You can not move while in reserves. While you are in reserves you do not have JI rules, therefore are ineligible to Deep Strike.

But you can DECLARE how you INTEND to move while in reserve. When does is the declaration realised? When the model is place on the board? When it's base touches the board? When you touch the model to pick it up to put it on the board? Are you considered to be no longer in reserves when you declare the intention to move, or when you put the actual model on the board?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A deep strike is obviously a move.

No, its not. Its a form a deployment. A model that has deployed this way counts as if it had moved. This sounds like a distinction with out a difference but the difference here would be that you do not declare a flight mode before deploying the unit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
It has all of those rules while moving ... this is very explicit. You need to be able to move to have said rules. You can only move while it is considered on the table, not while in reserves. You can not move while in reserves. While you are in reserves you do not have JI rules, therefore are ineligible to Deep Strike.

But you can DECLARE how you INTEND to move while in reserve. When does is the declaration realised? When the model is place on the board? When it's base touches the board? When you touch the model to pick it up to put it on the board? Are you considered to be no longer in reserves when you declare the intention to move, or when you put the actual model on the board?

No, you can only declare a flight mode at the start of a unit's move, or when it enters play from reserves. In order for a unit in reserves to deep strike the unit must have the deep strike special rule and the player must declare that the model will do so when he/she prepares their reserves. While preparing your reserves the model is neither starting its move nor is it entering play. At this moment it does not have the deep strike special rule

 DJGietzen wrote:
Why do you think that a flying monstrous creature has to be in one of two modes? Where is the permision for it to be in one of those two modes before the start of its move and before it enters play?

Where is the permission for it to NOT be in swooping or gliding mode? At the beginning of the movement phase is simply when you declare which is being used for that game turn.

The lack of rules regulating what mode it's in pre-deployment state are absent, either way.

There are no rules stating which of the two modes it's in while in reserves, true. But. In every way it's possible for a flying MC to move, it's described as moving "like a jump" unit, which would then confer Deep Strike. I'm of the mind if it'd ever have the special rule due to this application of the rule, it's a special rule it obtains for all intents and purposes at all times unless specifically stated otherwise. (Off the top of my head, Batman's.... er, Konrad Curze's special ability where he gains Hit and Run for any turn in which he assaults.)

There are no rules stating which of the two modes it's in while in reserves, true. Personally, I'm of the mind the BRB has a lot of rules that weren't totally thought out. Deep Striking in general has at least one glaring typo I'm aware of, and the stipulation a unit must "start the game" in Deep Strike reserve I think was written that way because at the time the rule was thought about when writing the edition, I doubt they considered the implications of a unit possibly going into Ongoing Reserves that would then want to deep strike back in on their turn, because I don't think that was a possible thing in the previous editions.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Although the BRB faq does not tell use all FMC can arrive via deep strike, it does tell us that if one does, it arrives in swoop mode.

Ah, you're right! I somehow missed that. Thanks.

Deployment and movement are coupled - you cannot have one without the other. Units do not magically materialize on the table top.

In the previous Tyranid Codex wings made a Monstrous Creature move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. Now wings make a Monstrous Creature a Flying Monstrous Creature. A flying Monsters creature only moves like a Jump Monstrous creature if it is gliding or swooping. In the previous codex a monstrous creature with wings moved like a jump monstrous creature before it entered play and therefore could deep strike. In the new codex it is impossible for a monstrous creature with wings to move like a jump monstrous creature before it enters play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Deployment and movement are coupled - you cannot have one without the other. Units do not magically materialize on the table top.

If that were true no models would be able to move in the 1st turn because models may not move more then once and they already deployed that turn.

FMC is a new category. Swooping is a new form of movement... don't make such a big deal about it.

If that were true no models would be able to move in the 1st turn because models may not move more then once and they already deployed that turn.

Run, assault, break... these are all movement. you are much too literal in your application.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Why do you think that a flying monstrous creature has to be in one of two modes? Where is the permision for it to be in one of those two modes before the start of its move and before it enters play?

Where is the permission for it to NOT be in swooping or gliding mode? At the beginning of the movement phase is simply when you declare which is being used for that game turn.

It actually changes flight modes at the begging of its move and while the start of its move MIGHT mean the start of the movement phase we actually have a more specific set of rules that deal with when we can choose a flight mode in relation to the deployment of the unit. Very clearly those rules don't let us choose a flight mode until the model has entered play.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The lack of rules regulating what mode it's in pre-deployment state are absent, either way.

There are no rules stating which of the two modes it's in while in reserves, true. But. In every way it's possible for a flying MC to move, it's described as moving "like a jump" unit, which would then confer Deep Strike. I'm of the mind if it'd ever have the special rule due to this application of the rule, it's a special rule it obtains for all intents and purposes at all times unless specifically stated otherwise. (Off the top of my head, Batman's.... er, Konrad Curze's special ability where he gains Hit and Run for any turn in which he assaults.)

Its a permissive rule set. The lack of permission to choose a mode before it enters play or rules staying which of the two modes its in while in reserves means its in neither mode while in reserves. As you can see its not a special rule it obtains for all intents and purposes at all times. There is at least one very specific time it does not have this rule and its this time that is the crux of the argument.

 SRSFACE wrote:
There are no rules stating which of the two modes it's in while in reserves, true. Personally, I'm of the mind the BRB has a lot of rules that weren't totally thought out. Deep Striking in general has at least one glaring typo I'm aware of, and the stipulation a unit must "start the game" in Deep Strike reserve I think was written that way because at the time the rule was thought about when writing the edition, I doubt they considered the implications of a unit possibly going into Ongoing Reserves that would then want to deep strike back in on their turn, because I don't think that was a possible thing in the previous editions.

In a discussion about the rules as intended this would be a valid point. I believe this argument is about the rules as written.

Having the particular type of movement is why they can deep strike. It is literally just that simple.

It seems that flying monstrous creatures somersault when they are not gliding or swooping. In fact, they probably moonwalk. They definitely don't use their wings. RAW states that you must declare how you are moving before moving or entering play etc..If you don't declare...then your FMC somersaults that turn and cannot deep strike when coming in from reserve. You see, a FMC that can also DEEP STRIKE will completely break the game and throw the perfectly balanced world of 40k rules writing out the window. The rules wizards at GW intentionally wrote it this way to prevent FMCs from deep striking cause it would ruin the perfect balance of the game. They also wrote it intentionally vague so that power gamers can find little loop holes when they dissect every single sentence. FMCs can deep strike. The BRB is not perfect.
Why would they not be able to? Because they are in a stasis field until they enter play. FMCs are wheeled up to the line of scrimmage and they are only allowed to use their wings after they step over the line. A better question is why would the writers intend for FMCs to not be able to deep strike? Arbitrary writing? Certainly balancing is not a concern. If I were to play against someone who breaks down the rules like this and interprets it to mean whatever best suits him and his army rather than what is obviously reasonable, then I would find a different opponent. RAW =???? RAI = FMCs can deep strike.

So let me get this straight. When coming in from reserves a FMC must choose a flight mode before they can choose a flight mode? How do they move on from reserves then?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Having the particular type of movement is why they can deep strike. It is literally just that simple.

But they don't have that type of movement when you prepare your reserves. Its really just that simple.

You have made up that construct. As you can see not many here agree with your PoV.

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
It seems that flying monstrous creatures somersault when they are not gliding or swooping. In fact, they probably moonwalk. They definitely don't use their wings.

Not that it will ever come up in the course of actual play, but a FMC that is neither gliding or swooping fallows the rules for movement expressed on paged 10-11 of the BRB.

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
RAW states that you must declare how you are moving before moving or entering play etc..If you don't declare...then your FMC somersaults that turn and cannot deep strike when coming in from reserve.

No, it actually does not tell you to declare a flight mode before entering play.

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
You see, a FMC that can also DEEP STRIKE will completely break the game and throw the perfectly balanced world of 40k rules writing out the window. The rules wizards at GW intentionally wrote it this way to prevent FMCs from deep striking cause it would ruin the perfect balance of the game.

Except for FMCs that have the deep strike rule. Those do exist.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You have made up that construct. As you can see not many here agree with your PoV.

Explain how the rules allow for a flying monstrous creature to either a) move like a jump unit while not swooping or gliding? or b) be swooping or gliding before it enters play.

DJGietzen wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Having the particular type of movement is why they can deep strike. It is literally just that simple.

But they don't have that type of movement when you prepare your reserves. Its really just that simple.

Dozer Blades wrote:You have made up that construct. As you can see not many here agree with your PoV.

He didn't make that up, it's true. If the BRB says you can do it you can do it, BUT ONLY IF IT SAYS YOU CAN. It says nowhere about chosing a mode before hand. Under deployment inn the BRB there is also this

....If a Flying Monsterous Creature is kept as Reserves than as soon as it enters play, you declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

(Emphasis mine).

I think we found the answer; RAW = no, because you are neither swooping or gliding while deploying or in reserves which would confer the "moves like jump"/"confers jump" special rules. Deep strike from ongoing reserves appears legit, though. RAI = ??? My last post paints me to be a complete hypocrite as I bash those who interpret rules to their liking then proceed to do so to my own extreme liking including imagery. My bad, I'm flopping on this one. RAW = clearly they cannot. Whether or not this was the intention does not matter.

Would you actually try to enforce that in a real game ?

Like I said earlier. This is the "does re-rolls of 1 allow a model to re-roll blast weapons?" all over again. One side says yes as the requirements are met (the model is described to move like jump units). The other says no, because the movement is conditional (they only move like jump units when moving).

As near as I can tell, it is allowed, for the same reason that re-rolls are allowed. It gives generic permission.

 Happyjew wrote:
Like I said earlier. This is the "does re-rolls of 1 allow a model to re-roll blast weapons?" all over again. One side says yes as the requirements are met (the model is described to move like jump units). The other says no, because the movement is conditional (they only move like jump units when moving).

As near as I can tell, it is allowed, for the same reason that re-rolls are allowed. It gives generic permission.

Only while swooping or gliding, not while moving. You can be swooping or gliding and not be moving. And as far as I can tell it is not allowed for the same reason that re-rolls are not allowed. It gives conditional permission and that condition is not being satisfied.

 Happyjew wrote:
Like I said earlier. This is the "does re-rolls of 1 allow a model to re-roll blast weapons?" all over again. One side says yes as the requirements are met (the model is described to move like jump units). The other says no, because the movement is conditional (they only move like jump units when moving).

As near as I can tell, it is allowed, for the same reason that re-rolls are allowed. It gives generic permission.

This isn't quite accurate.
The FMC rules are very, very, clear on when a model counts as moving like a Jump unit. And it is only whe Swooping or Gliding. No other time.
It is also very clear on when you can choose one of these 2 modes.
At no point during reserves can you choose them.

It's a case of one side saying the requirements are met (to be treated as moving like JMC).
And another that says it hasn't (during going into reserve it is not treated as moving like a JMC)

Now the side against has rules support.
Not one person on the "yes" side can show rules support of either:
A). The FMC is considered to move like a JMC unconditionally at all times, or
B). That Swooping/Gliding can be selected when a model goes into reserve.

A is easily proven wrong. Only when Swooping or Gliding is it ever described as moving like a JMC.
B also, the times a mode can be chosen are clearly defined and not one includes reserves.

It's not even a conditional argument.
One side is quite literally using the Deep Strike rule for a unit that is NOT described as moving like a jump unit.

One declares deepstrike in deployment. One declares swoop or glide in the movement phase where his model comes on.

I'd say no.

Would you actually try to enforce that in a real game ?

I would try to agree about that beforehand if possible. If it comes up, and is of any importance, I would not enforce it, because I want my opponent to have fun, and I don't want to win a game by using a rule my opponent didn't know about in my favour. I try to maintain a chivalric attitude to gaming.

But this is still important, because I do prepare for someone enforcing that on me, because I don't like surprises on that topic. And I wouldn't be the "Awww thats unfair!"-complaining-guy.