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We are also told that FMC are treated like a jump unit if they have wings. Do assault Marines have deep strike listed as a USR under their entry ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
We are also told that FMC are treated like a jump unit if they have wings.

No we are not.

Only when Swooping or Gliding is it treated as moving like a Jump Unit.
And it's not Swooping or Gliding when it goes into Reserve.

Do assault Marines have deep strike listed as a USR under their entry ?

No, but they are a Jump Unit at all times (assuming they keep their jump packs). They're are a Jump Unit when they go into Reserve. A FMC is not.

The FMC is treated exactly the same.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The FMC is treated exactly the same.

Is there anyway you could support this please? With rules?

Becasue the rules do not agree with you.
As has been pointed out over and over, a FMC is ONLY described as a Jump Unit when it Swoops or Glides.
When in Reserve it cannot select a flight mode. So it isn't a Jump unit.

Can you or anyone else find a rule saying that a FMC is described as a Jump unit when NOT swooping or Gliding.

It doesn't matter what I say, you will deny it with your fallacious discussion of this subject. Yes, no, yes, no for several pages is a waste of time.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It doesn't matter what I say, you will deny it with your fallacious discussion of this subject. Yes, no, yes, no for several pages is a waste of time.

Of course it matters.
But so far you have refused to quote a single rule to back up any of your statements.

I've demonstrated (with rules) that during reserve they are not Jump Units.
You claim they are but either cannot or will not supply evidence.
Neither will anyone else on this question.

Back up the claim. I'll read it, if correct I'll admit it. If it isn't I'll point out why. It's how a debate works.
Please stop posting "You're wrong but I wont prove why".

Don't tell me what to do. That's very silly.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Don't tell me what to do. That's very silly.

I'm politley asking you to back up your claim.

This is also one of the tenants of this forum. A rule that you agreed to when you signed up.

Do you have anything productive to add to this rules debate?

I am putting you on Ignore now.

Grendel, I only have internet via my phone right now. I'll pm you tomorrow night and try to explain my view a little bit better. Just out of curiosity though, hwypi?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I am putting you on Ignore now.

Please do.

Now hopefully someone that actually wishes to contribute to this debate (rather than just waste everyone's time) could answer this simple question:

When not Swooping or Gliding, is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit.
Answer to include a relevent quote please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Grendel, I only have internet via my phone right now. I'll pm you tomorrow night and try to explain my view a little bit better.

Please do, look forward to hearing it.

Just out of curiosity though, hwypi?

I would certainly point out to my opponent why the FMC cannot DeepStrike. If they don't have the same conclusion then I would let them play it as they want, but then would continue the debate over a beer afterwards.

Movement is not Deployment.

Deepstrike is a form of Deployment.

FMCs move like Jump Infantry. FMCs do not deploy like Jump Infantry.

Therefore, FMCs do not Deepstrike according to the rule book.

Couldn't be more clear.

FMCs can deploy like JI.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
stop being so obtuse.

That's a rather acute observation, and you may very well be right , but please do not be a square and show a degree of consideration. Now then, enough of this tangent .


I tried to figure out how to squeeze radians, sine and cosine in there, but got nothing.

Before he put you on ignore Grend, I was going to tell you not to bother as he isnt following the rules of the forum. One line trolling sentences without any rules basis just serve to annoy while both you and I cite the same rules and pages.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
FMCs can deploy like JI.

Citation required.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Before he put you on ignore Grend, I was going to tell you not to bother as he isnt following the rules of the forum. One line trolling sentences without any rules basis just serve to annoy while both you and I cite the same rules and pages.

I know, I really should have given up replying.
Just one rule quote was all I wanted. Clearly I was asking for too much, and shouldn't have bothered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
I tried to figure out how to squeeze radians, sine and cosine in there, but got nothing.

'COS you went round in circles instead, try and be more sharp

 grendel083 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
FMCs can deploy like JI.

Citation required.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Before he put you on ignore Grend, I was going to tell you not to bother as he isnt following the rules of the forum. One line trolling sentences without any rules basis just serve to annoy while both you and I cite the same rules and pages.

I know, I really should have given up replying.
Just one rule quote was all I wanted. Clearly I was asking for too much, and shouldn't have bothered.

Well as Inmentioned it earlier, their argument hinges on creating an unsupported mode not based on the rules, but on what they either want it tobe or think what it should be. I get their argument, but just know it isnt supported and in fact refuted by the rules.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Well as Inmentioned it earlier, their argument hinges on creating an unsupported mode not based on the rules, but on what they either want it tobe or think what it should be. I get their argument, but just know it isnt supported and in fact refuted by the rules.

Agreed. Hence the simple question I keep asking, but as yet no one will answer:

 grendel083 wrote:
When not Swooping or Gliding, is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit.
Answer to include a relevent quote please.

BR, my argument is the same argument put forth as to why a model that can re-roll to hit rolls of 1, can re-roll blast scatter. I see the permission as general. How do FMCs move? Like jump units. Therefore, they have the same special rules add jump units. However, as I said earlier, I don't do this anyway, I like to have my FMCs on the board where they can be useful. And however my opponent plays is up to him (or her).

 Happyjew wrote:
BR, my argument is the same argument put forth as to why a model that can re-roll to hit rolls of 1, can re-roll blast scatter. I see the permission as general.

Problem is the Deep Strike rule is alot more solid than the Blast and Re-rolls rule.
It very clearly says the model must have the rule. Not potentially have the rule, must.
And when they go into reserve, they're not treated as being Jump units, because you have not selected a flight mode.

How do FMCs move? Like jump units. Therefore, they have the same special rules add jump units.

They ONLY move like Jump units when Swooping or Gliding. They don't move like them by default. That's part of the problem, when they go into reserve they are not treated as Jump units, so can't use the rule for a type they are not.

In summary:
They only move like JMC when a flight mode has been selected.
When you can select a flight mode is very clearly laid out. It does not include when going into reserve.
So when in Reserve they are not a JMC, so cannot use JMC rules.

Jump infantry can deploy on the table and so can FMC. I think that is pretty obvious.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Jump infantry can deploy on the table and so can FMC. I think that is pretty obvious.

Bad argument is bad. Except for Flyers, any unit can deploy on the table.

 Happyjew wrote:
BR, my argument is the same argument put forth as to why a model that can re-roll to hit rolls of 1, can re-roll blast scatter. I see the permission as general. How do FMCs move? Like jump units. Therefore, they have the same special rules add jump units. However, as I said earlier, I don't do this anyway, I like to have my FMCs on the board where they can be useful. And however my opponent plays is up to him (or her).

I would counter that if that was the case then why would GW put not one, but two conditional statements linked specifically to swooping/gliding and moving as a jump monstrous creature. I would further question why GW then puts tue requirement to declare which mode after arriving from Reserves as opposed to when being placed in Reserves.

Now we all know that GW tends to mess up rule writing, but in this instance we would say that GW mistakenly included conditional clauses, further backed by the mechanic of declaring mode of flight after entering play from Reserves or that FMC were written to not be able to Deep Striek unless they already have the USR as in the case of Daemons.

In this case I will take the rules as written instead of making the unfounded assumption that FMC are always JMC and that GW messed up the rules so much.

Correction, any unit type except flyers, can deploy on the table

 Happyjew wrote:
Correction, any unit type except flyers, can deploy on the table

With Stronghold Assault you can even Deploy a flyer at the start of the game on the table.

I knew that, but not everyone plays with expansions.

 Happyjew wrote:
Correction, any unit type except flyers, can deploy on the table

What about drop pods ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Correction, any unit type except flyers, can deploy on the table

What about drop pods ?

What unit type is a Drop Pod?

Oh yeah he can't hear me
See what happens when you feed him?

Drop pod are an exception, however, their unit type {vehicle (open-topped, transport)} can still start deployed. Which is why I corrected myself and changed "unit" to "unit type".

 grendel083 wrote:

The rules are absent, because they're not needed.

Then why does this thread even exist?

The absence of rules is the entire argument. You either believe the conditions aren't satisfied, or you believe they are.

As a side note, can you all stop using suprelatives? Any "absolute" statement in this thread is pretty silly. The use of "clearly states" when 7 pages proves the rules do not clearly state anything, and it is in fact murky as hell, is a statement made by people who believe they have the God given right to insight, and everyone who disagrees with them is a plebian dumb dumb stupid head.

Several people have flip-flopped their positions in the course of this thread, so seriously, saying anything RAWR IS THE WAY IT IS SMASH GRR DRRR is exceptionally rude, and if you don't realize you're coming across that way, re-examine your language. A bunch of people's Smugness levels have reached San Francisco critical levels so I'm bowing out now anyway.

The only thing that's clear by now is you should definitely discuss it before any friendly play, or discuss it with a Tournament Organizer beforehand.