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 SRSFACE wrote:
The absence of rules is the entire argument. You either believe the conditions aren't satisfied, or you believe they are.

I believe it has some unique rules. And those rules can only be used at a certain time.
And that time does not include reserve.

So no, I do not believe the conditions have been met to allow it to Deep Strike.
Mainly being at that time it isn't a JMC so doesn't have the Deep Strike rule.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

The rules are absent, because they're not needed.

Then why does this thread even exist?

The absence of rules is the entire argument. You either believe the conditions aren't satisfied, or you believe they are.

As a side note, can you all stop using suprelatives? Any "absolute" statement in this thread is pretty silly. The use of "clearly states" when 7 pages proves the rules do not clearly state anything, and it is in fact murky as hell, is a statement made by people who believe they have the God given right to insight, and everyone who disagrees with them is a plebian dumb dumb stupid head.

Several people have flip-flopped their positions in the course of this thread, so seriously, saying anything RAWR IS THE WAY IT IS SMASH GRR DRRR is exceptionally rude, and if you don't realize you're coming across that way, re-examine your language. A bunch of people's Smugness levels have reached San Francisco critical levels so I'm bowing out now anyway.

The only thing that's clear by now is you should definitely discuss it before any friendly play, or discuss it with a Tournament Organizer beforehand.

Because the rules do clearly state,

"If a FMC is Gliding, it moves exactly like a JMC."

and

"If a FMC is Swooping, it moves exactly like a JMC."

and

"If a FMC is kept in Reserves then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode."

and

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve."

and

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike reserve)."

No one is making absolute statements other then what is absolutely stated in the rules. If all you have is attacking the methodology of the debate, then you obviously cannot address the debate at hand so don't even bother posting in the thread.

 grendel083 wrote:
[They ONLY move like Jump units when Swooping or Gliding. They don't move like them by default. That's part of the problem, when they go into reserve they are not treated as Jump units, so can't use the rule for a type they are not.

Doesn't any jump unit only move like a jump unit when they move?
Even if it holds true what you say, they can never have any state other than Swooping or Gliding so they'd always be described as "moving like" a jump unit

From the rules for unit type "Jump"
"Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

From the rules for FMC
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature,"

Seems like an open and shut to me.
RAW they can Deep Strike.

Having to declare their movement status on entry makes no difference as in either mode they are Jump MC.
You are just nominating which, not going from nothing to one or the other.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Doesn't any jump unit only move like a jump unit when they move?

It isn't a Jump Unit.

Even if it holds true what you say, they can never have any state other than Swooping or Gliding so they'd always be described as "moving like" a jump unit

Yes it can. There are 3 set times when you can choose a Flight mode. If you havn't chosen one, you aren't using one. No rule ever states it must at all times have one chosen. The rules don't support or enforce that.

From the rules for unit type "Jump"
"Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

From the rules for FMC
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature,"

That's nice. Now quote the rules where you choose a Flight mode.
You'll note when looking for them that you can't select one when it goes into reserve, which is when the Deep Strike rule is needed.
No flight mode, no treaded as a Jump unit, no Deep Strike.

Seem like an open and shut to me.

You're correct.

RAW they can Deep Strike.

No they can't.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Even if it holds true what you say, they can never have any state other than Swooping or Gliding so they'd always be described as "moving like" a jump unit.

What makes you think that a FMC that has not entered neither swooping nor gliding mode cannot exists?

 DJGietzen wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Even if it holds true what you say, they can never have any state other than Swooping or Gliding so they'd always be described as "moving like" a jump unit.

What makes you think that a FMC that has not entered neither swooping nor gliding mode cannot exists?

What makes you think can be something other than either one or the other?

The rules make no mention of declared modes, the only requirement is to be described as "moving like", which it is regardless of the mode it is in.
Given that it cannot move in any mode other than the two which are described as moving like, there is never a situation where the FMC is not described as moving like.

If there was a 3rd mode or 1 of the modes was not described as moving like then there might be some concern but there isn't .

Uptopdownunder wrote:
What makes you think can be something other than either one or the other?

No rule says it is.
Why must it be one or the other?
During deployment is a missile launcher loaded with Frag or Krak? It MUST be one or the other at all times, right?

Swooping or Gliding. Two rules, with instructions on when they can be selected. If neither are selected then neither apply.
The FMC lays out 3 specific times you can choose a flight mode. Non are during reserve.

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
What makes you think can be something other than either one or the other?

No rule says it is.
Why must it be one or the other?
During deployment is a missile launcher loaded with Frag or Krak? It MUST be one or the other at all times, right?

Swooping or Gliding. Two rules, with instructions on when they can be selected. If neither are selected then neither apply.
The FMC lays out 3 specific times you can choose a flight mode. Non are during reserve.

None of those concepts are present in the 6th Edition Rulebook that I have found.

See my edits to the previous post.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
None of those concepts are present in the 6th Edition Rulebook that I have found.

Can you prove that a flight mode must be chosen at all times?

The FMC rules give 3 times when it can be chosen. You're claiming a fourth time that makes the three listed redundant as the choice must exisit at all times.

Can you quote this please?

There is no 3rd mode. There is however a time when a flight mode has not been chosen.

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
None of those concepts are present in the 6th Edition Rulebook that I have found.

Can you prove that a flight mode must be chosen at all times?

The FMC rules give 3 times when it can be chosen. You're claiming a fourth time that makes the three listed redundant as the choice must exisit at all times.

Can you quote this please?

There is no 3rd mode. There is however a time when a flight mode has not been chosen.

Can you prove what the state is when it is undeclared? No of course not, this is not a concept addressed within the rules, just like there is no concept of a weapon being loaded with a particular round or not loaded at all. All of that is just smoke that complicates things needlessly

The only concept is that if the unit is described as moving like a jump unit then it gets the jump unit special rules. There is no mention anywhere of this being conditional, and FMC is always described as moving exactly like a jump unit.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Even if it holds true what you say, they can never have any state other than Swooping or Gliding so they'd always be described as "moving like" a jump unit.

What makes you think that a FMC that has not entered neither swooping nor gliding mode cannot exists?

What makes you think can be something other than either one or the other?

Becouse Page 49 clearly defines when a mode can begin and for how long it lasts. Its quite clear that the modes are neither the default state of the unit nor a persistent state but rather a situational exception to the units norm.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
The rules make no mention of declared modes, the only requirement is to be described as "moving like", which it is regardless of the mode it is in.

Wrong on both counts. Page 49 is chalk full of mentions to declared modes, and while page 47's only requirement is the unit be described as 'moving like'; a FMC only 'moves like' while in one of two modes and not for the totality of its existence . The potential to be described as moving like a jump unit is not enough to satisfy page 47.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Given that it cannot move in any mode other than the two which are described as moving like, there is never a situation where the FMC is not described as moving like.

You mean other then any situation where it is not in one of those two modes? Situations like deployment and preparing reserves?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
If there was a 3rd mode or 1 of the modes was not described as moving like then there might be some concern but there isn't .

Every unit it the game moves as described on paged 10 and 11 unless stated otherwise. A FMC only deviates from the movement rules on pages 10 and 11 while it is either swooping or gliding. As desiccated earlier these modes does have a defined beginning and end, and a FMC that is outside of those defined beginning and end of those modes would be required to move as described on pages 10 and 11. This, while not given a name, would be the 3rd mode you think, but will not explain why, does not exist.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Can you prove what the state is when it is undeclared?

There is no state. Why must there be a state? Why must be always be in one of the two flight modes? Nothing says it must be chosen at all times.
It's a rule that simply hasn't been used yet. This does not create a strange vacuum of rules.

As an Ork player I can delare a Waaagh! once per game and give my army some buffs. What happens when I havn't yet done this? What state am I in? One not supported by any rule by the sound of it!

The only concept is that if the unit is described as moving like a jump unit then it gets the jump unit special rules.

And when in Reserve it has not selected Swoop or Glide. So is not described as moving like a Jump unit

and FMC is always described as moving exactly like a jump unit.

No. That is completely false.
Only when Swooping or Gliding is it described as moving like that.
And when in reserve it has not yet selected a flight mode. So it is not moving like a JMC.

Simple question,

What mode is the FMC when you place it into Reserve and cite the rules that support your answer?

We have cited the rules and page numbers that show you that you are neither Gliding or Swooping and thus not JMC. But please, by all means shows us the rules and page numbers that support the mode you are in when placing the FMC into Reserve that allows it to be a JMC.

You want to deny the rule because it doesn't "move like" outside the times that it moves ? WOW

If something begins in the movement phase and last until the next movement phase when the declaration is made again.... there is no "outside of this time"

You're ignoring the simple words "if it is described as moving like jump" the changes in mode are time framed but always it is described as moving like.

This only gets hard when you introduce concepts that just aren't even considered in the game system. Read it at face value and all this turmoil goes away.

Anyway I've said my piece enjoy your games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Simple question,

What mode is the FMC when you place it into Reserve and cite the rules that support your answer?

We have cited the rules and page numbers that show you that you are neither Gliding or Swooping and thus not JMC. But please, by all means shows us the rules and page numbers that support the mode you are in when placing the FMC into Reserve that allows it to be a JMC.

The mode is unimportant.

What needs to be proven is when is an FMC NOT described as moving like a Jump MC ?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
What needs to be proven is when is an FMC NOT described as moving like a Jump MC ?

Yes! You are very right and hit the nail on the head with this question. I wish more people had asked it earlier on.

Ok, on to the answer. When Swooping or Gliding (aka: Flight Mode) it is described as moving as a JMC. Only then, no other time.
So in order to be considered a JMC, a flight mode must be selected. Agreed?

Now when can they select a flight mode?

FMC - Changing Flight Mode wrote:At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding unitl the start of its next turn.

FMC Deployment wrote:A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserve then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

I've highlighted the three and only three times you may (in fact must) declare a Flight mode.
1). Start of it's movement
2). When it deploys
3). When it arrives from reserve.

You will note that not one of these times are met when it goes into reserve.
So when going into reserve it is NOT described as a Jump unit and does NOT have the Deep Strike special rule.

So the answer of "When is it NOT a JMC" is "When it has not yet selected a flight mode".
And during reserve, it has not selected a flight mode.

No unit is any movement mode while held in reserve. This is ridiculous.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
No unit is any movement mode while held in reserve. This is ridiculous.

Don't suppose you have a rule to go with that statement, do you?

 grendel083 wrote:
When not Swooping or Gliding, is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit.

Yes, the status of one particular Flying Monstrous Creature does not change the description of how Flying Monstrous Creatures move, which includes two modes of movement. FMCs move like Jump Monstrous Creatures in both modes of movement, so whenever a Flying Monstrous Creatures is moving it moves like a Jump unit. This fulfils the requirement of being described as moving like a Jump unit.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
No unit is any movement mode while held in reserve. This is ridiculous.

Rule quote please?

I'm still not sold on this. To me it reads as if a Flying MC is exactly like a Jump Unit, except with a few differences.

However, I did find a little nugget in the description on page 49 of LRB...

"Flying Monstrous Creatures can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models"

Where in the heck does it say non-vehicle models can do THAT??!?!

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
When not Swooping or Gliding, is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit.

Yes, the status of one particular Flying Monstrous Creature does not change the description of how Flying Monstrous Creatures move, which includes two modes of movement. FMCs move like Jump Monstrous Creatures in both modes of movement, so whenever a Flying Monstrous Creatures is moving it moves like a Jump unit. This fulfils the requirement of being described as moving like a Jump unit.

The two forms of movement (Swooping and Gliding) make it move like a JMC.
But when neither are selected?
Is it described as a JMC then?
A rule to go with the answer please.

I'm afraid I cannot answer your question, as I do not know how to describe how Flying Monstrous Creatures move without referencing their movement rules.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
FlyiI'm afraid I cannot answer your question, as I do not know how to describe how Flying Monstrous Creatures move without referencing their movement rules.

Right. So it's not described, at that point, as a JMC.

So we are agreed that only when Swooping or Gliding it is described as a JMC?

And when can you choose Swooping or Gliding?

FMC - Changing Flight Mode wrote:At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding unitl the start of its next turn.

FMC Deployment wrote:A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserve then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

I've highlighted the three and only three times you may (in fact must) declare a Flight mode.
1). Start of it's movement
2). When it deploys
3). When it arrives from reserve.

You'll note that "going into reserve" is not one of these times.
So when going into reserve, it is not Swooping or Gliding because you have not yet been allowed to make that choice.
And as you've correctly noted, it is not described as a JMC without the use of one of those Flight Modes.
So if it isn't described as a JMC, it cannot use the JMC rule to Deepstrike.

The requirement is that it is described as moving like Jump units, therefore we must reference the FMC movement rules to decide whether or not it fits that criteria, and in the movement rules it says FMCs do, in fact, move like Jump Monstrous Creatures.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The requirement is that it is described as moving like Jump units, therefore we must reference the FMC movement rules to decide whether or not it fits that criteria, and in the movement rules it says FMCs do, in fact, move like Jump Monstrous Creatures.

Which requirement are you referring to?
The Deep Strike rule?
Because that say it must have the Deep Strike USR.
A JMC does have this rule.
But as pointed out, when it goes into reserve it is not described as moving like a JMC.

So it fails your requirement. When going into reserve it is NOT described as moving like a JMC.

Perhaps if you can give us the rule quote that amends the rules for FMC that say they "move like jump units" to "they move like jump units except when in reserve".?

Because without that the unit is always described as moving like a jump unit because FMC ALWAYS move like jump units, it's just that at some times they have differing abilities and limitations.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The requirement is that it is described as moving like Jump units, therefore we must reference the FMC movement rules to decide whether or not it fits that criteria, and in the movement rules it says FMCs do, in fact, move like Jump Monstrous Creatures.

Which requirement are you referring to?
The Deep Strike rule?
Because that say it must have the Deep Strike USR.
A JMC does have this rule.
But as pointed out, when it goes into reserve it is not described as moving like a JMC.

So it fails your requirement. When going into reserve it is NOT described as moving like a JMC.

I refer to the requirement on the Jump page - "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

What I don't understand is why you think the description of the FMC while it is in reserves, where it clearly is not moving, has anything to do with the description of how it moves.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Perhaps if you can give us the rule quote that amends the rules for FMC that say they "move like jump units" to "they move like jump units except when in reserve".?

Because without that the unit is always described as moving like a jump unit because FMC ALWAYS move like jump units, it's just that at some times they have differing abilities and limitations.

The rules do not say "A Flying Monstrous Creature moves like jump unit". The rules do say the FMC moves like a jump unit IF the model is swooping or gliding. You need permission for the FMC to be swooping or gliding in reserves for a FMC to move like a jump unit while in reserves.

Perhaps you can give us the rule quote that says when placing a FMC in reserves you must declare if it is swooping or gliding instead of waiting until after it arrives from reserves.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I refer to the requirement on the Jump page - "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

Unless it is Swooping or Gliding, it is not described as moving as a JMC. You yourself confirmed that when you couldn't find a description.
So as it's NOT described as a Jump unit, it can't use those rules. It's failed that requirement.

What I don't understand is why you think the description of the FMC while it is in reserves, where it clearly is not moving, has anything to do with the description of how it moves.

Because when in reserve, Swooping or Gliding cannot be selected.
As you yourself confirmed earlier, this means it is not described as moving like a Jump unit.

So if it's not described as moving like a Jump unit, how can it use the rules for Jump units?
It has failed the requirement you listed.

 DJGietzen wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Perhaps if you can give us the rule quote that amends the rules for FMC that say they "move like jump units" to "they move like jump units except when in reserve".?

Because without that the unit is always described as moving like a jump unit because FMC ALWAYS move like jump units, it's just that at some times they have differing abilities and limitations.

The rules do not say "A Flying Monstrous Creature moves like jump unit". The rules do say the FMC moves like a jump unit IF the model is swooping or gliding. You need permission for the FMC to be swooping or gliding in reserves for a FMC to move like a jump unit while in reserves.

Perhaps you can give us the rule quote that says when placing a FMC in reserves you must declare if it is swooping or gliding instead of waiting until after it arrives from reserves.

But the rules do say that an FMC moves like a jump MC. It's just that it has two modes of jump moving, one of which has "the following exceptions and clarifications".

The declaration of which of those modes of jump moving to to be used makes no difference to the fact that it moves like a jump MC, always.