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Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike?
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Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

Uptopdownunder wrote:
 DJGietzen wrote:
Uptopdownunder wrote:
Perhaps if you can give us the rule quote that amends the rules for FMC that say they "move like jump units" to "they move like jump units except when in reserve".?

Because without that the unit is always described as moving like a jump unit because FMC ALWAYS move like jump units, it's just that at some times they have differing abilities and limitations.


The rules do not say "A Flying Monstrous Creature moves like jump unit". The rules do say the FMC moves like a jump unit IF the model is swooping or gliding. You need permission for the FMC to be swooping or gliding in reserves for a FMC to move like a jump unit while in reserves.

Perhaps you can give us the rule quote that says when placing a FMC in reserves you must declare if it is swooping or gliding instead of waiting until after it arrives from reserves.


But the rules do say that an FMC moves like a jump MC. It's just that it has two modes of jump moving, one of which has "the following exceptions and clarifications".

The declaration of which of those modes of jump moving to to be used makes no difference to the fact that it moves like a jump MC, always.
It does not say "always" that's very very incorrect.
Only when Swooping or Gliding is it described as such.
Going into reserve it isn't.
   
Made in au
Hacking Interventor




 grendel083 wrote:

It does not say "always" that's very very incorrect.
Only when Swooping or Gliding is it described as such.
Going into reserve it isn't.


It does say always "Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding."
Given that there is no other way it can move and both modes say move like JMC it must always move as a JMC.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/31 04:36:05


 
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

Conclusion: This is clearly a contentious issue. The amount of dispute indicates that people who use (or fear) Jump Monstrous Creatures arriving via Deep Strike should discuss it with opponents beforehand to make sure both parties are on the same page.

It would be a good thing to bring to add to your list of pre-tournament questions you should always be sending to TO's anyway.

I neither use nor own any Jump Monstrous Creatures, so I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but still, good to know.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

Uptown.
It's not factual to state it says "always" without it actually saying always.

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For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

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Made in us
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Why do people think that the statement regarding units described at moving like jump infantry follow all rules and special rules of jump infamtry is some kind of all blanketing statement that overrides the conditional statements of FMC?

It is interesting that in order to deepstrike a FMC you need to completely ignore the conditional statements stated in the FMC entry regarding swooping amd gliding being the requirement to move as JMC. It is like selective reading and omission is necessary to deepstrike a FMC. Like seriously how does that playbout in your heads?

"FMC move as JMC all the time, even when placed into Reserve and that is why they can deep strike."

That is in direct contradiction to the rules that say a FMC only moves as JMC if it is gliding or swooping. You have to ignore those specific rules. How is that going to work out for you when explaining to a TO that your stance requires ignoring rules?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/31 05:31:21


 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

FMC do move like Jump units, there is no possible way you could move a FMC in which it doesn't move like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in au
Hacking Interventor




 Brother Ramses wrote:
Why do people think that the statement regarding units described at moving like jump infantry follow all rules and special rules of jump infamtry is some kind of all blanketing statement that overrides the conditional statements of FMC?


Conditional statements that at no stage place any conditions on whether or not they move like jump units, merely they modify the manner in which they move like jump units.

As stated previously by myself and others there is no other way they can move, other than "like jump units"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 liturgies of blood wrote:
Uptown.
It's not factual to state it says "always" without it actually saying always.


Always is one of those funny things where you don't always have to say always to indicate always.

You can never grow younger, means you always grow older simply because there is no other way you can grow.
Same here, an FMC always moves like a jump unit because there is no other way it can move.

It doesn't matter what phase, what part of the game or day of the week, when an FMC moves it moves like a jump unit, always.

To be honest I would never play it this way because it runs contrary to what I think is intended for flying creatures and vehicles but there is no denying the RAW, and I am told that Dakka is all about strict RAW.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/01/31 06:03:59


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

Here's my side thought on the Issue.....

The Nid FAQ gave permission for FMCs to Deep-strike.... All the applicable rules were in the BRB, it was not a Nid codex issue at all.

True that the nid FAQ is now technically outdated.... But at the same time, none of the rules have changed.

The only thing that has changed is that we are in the time period between when the Old FAQ got invalidated by the new Codex, and not having a new FAQ yet.

Since none of the rules, all of which being BRB rules, have changed, intent is crystal clear.

FMC's can deep-strike. Naysayers are just capitalizing on the fact that Nids are in the limbo period between a new codex, but no new FAQ.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






 Steel-W0LF wrote:
True that the nid FAQ is now technically outdated.... But at the same time, none of the rules have changed.
The Wings Biomorph is different. In the previous codex this biomorph caused the the equipped model to move like jump infantry. This was enough to satisfy page 47 and give the model deep strike because when it moved like jump infantry was not conditional on anything. Now wings change the unit type of the equipped model to a FMC. The discussion here is if that equally satisfies page 47.

I believe that the awnser can be found in answering 3 simple questions.
  • Is a FMC that is in reserves either swooping or gliding? NO.
  • Is a FMC that is neither swooping or gliding described as moving like a jump unit? NO
  • Is a FMC in reserves described as moving like a jump unit? NO.

  • In the old codex, the question would be different.
  • Is a model in reserves with the Wings biomorph described as moving like a jump unit? YES.
  • However with the new codex, that same question would be answered, NO.

    The difference does not appear drastic, but it is significant.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/31 09:09:50


     
       
    Made in au
    Tea-Kettle of Blood




    Adelaide, South Australia

     DJGietzen wrote:
    I believe that the awnser can be found in answering 3 simple questions.
  • Is a FMC that is in reserves either swooping or gliding? NO.

  • Is a FMC that is neither swooping nor gliding moving? NO.
  • Does how a FMC behave when not moving affect how it is described when it is moving? NO.
  • This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/31 09:14:17


     Ailaros wrote:
    You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
    I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

    "Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
       
    Made in im
    Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





    Liverpool

    So even though, when going into reserve it is not described as moving like a Jump unit, it somehow magically gets to use Jump unit rules?
    Use the rules of something it isn't? Failing the requirements, but still using?
       
    Made in au
    Tea-Kettle of Blood




    Adelaide, South Australia

    It is not moving as a Jump unit, the description of how it moves remains.

     Ailaros wrote:
    You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
    I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

    "Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
       
    Made in us
    Sneaky Lictor





    Idaho

     DJGietzen wrote:
     Steel-W0LF wrote:
    True that the nid FAQ is now technically outdated.... But at the same time, none of the rules have changed.
    The Wings Biomorph is different. In the previous codex this biomorph caused the the equipped model to move like jump infantry. This was enough to satisfy page 47 and give the model deep strike because when it moved like jump infantry was not conditional on anything. Now wings change the unit type of the equipped model to a FMC. The discussion here is if that equally satisfies page 47.

    I believe that the awnser can be found in answering 3 simple questions.
  • Is a FMC that is in reserves either swooping or gliding? NO.
  • Is a FMC that is neither swooping or gliding described as moving like a jump unit? NO
  • Is a FMC in reserves described as moving like a jump unit? NO.

  • In the old codex, the question would be different.
  • Is a model in reserves with the Wings biomorph described as moving like a jump unit? YES.
  • However with the new codex, that same question would be answered, NO.

    The difference does not appear drastic, but it is significant.


    Tyranid FAQ:

    Pg 2:
    Change Harpy Unit type to Flying Monstrous Creature.

    Pg 5:
    Can Harpies (which are now FMC's) and Hive Tyrants with the Wings biomorph Deep Strike?
    A: Yes

    Argument defeated.
    FMC's could deepstrike, even those considered FMC's and not just jump infantry.

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    Made in im
    Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





    Liverpool

     PrinceRaven wrote:
    It is not moving as a Jump unit, the description of how it moves remains.
    And the description of how it moves, at the point it goes into reserve is, is NOT of a jump unit.

    You yourself confirmed that, when you could not find a movement description when it's neither swooping nor gliding.
       
    Made in us
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     Steel-W0LF wrote:
     DJGietzen wrote:
     Steel-W0LF wrote:
    True that the nid FAQ is now technically outdated.... But at the same time, none of the rules have changed.
    The Wings Biomorph is different. In the previous codex this biomorph caused the the equipped model to move like jump infantry. This was enough to satisfy page 47 and give the model deep strike because when it moved like jump infantry was not conditional on anything. Now wings change the unit type of the equipped model to a FMC. The discussion here is if that equally satisfies page 47.

    I believe that the awnser can be found in answering 3 simple questions.
  • Is a FMC that is in reserves either swooping or gliding? NO.
  • Is a FMC that is neither swooping or gliding described as moving like a jump unit? NO
  • Is a FMC in reserves described as moving like a jump unit? NO.

  • In the old codex, the question would be different.
  • Is a model in reserves with the Wings biomorph described as moving like a jump unit? YES.
  • However with the new codex, that same question would be answered, NO.

    The difference does not appear drastic, but it is significant.


    Tyranid FAQ:

    Pg 2:
    Change Harpy Unit type to Flying Monstrous Creature.

    Pg 5:
    Can Harpies (which are now FMC's) and Hive Tyrants with the Wings biomorph Deep Strike?
    A: Yes

    Argument defeated.
    FMC's could deepstrike, even those considered FMC's and not just jump infantry.

    1) That FAQ no longer is valid
    2) Is probably just maintaining the status queue of allow those units to still deep strike like they could before 6ed and not resolving this rules conflict
       
    Made in gb
    Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




    no idea

     grendel083 wrote:
    Uptopdownunder wrote:
    What needs to be proven is when is an FMC NOT described as moving like a Jump MC ?
    Yes! You are very right and hit the nail on the head with this question. I wish more people had asked it earlier on.

    Ok, on to the answer. When Swooping or Gliding (aka: Flight Mode) it is described as moving as a JMC. Only then, no other time.
    So in order to be considered a JMC, a flight mode must be selected. Agreed?

    Now when can they select a flight mode?



    Jmc/fmc can only move like jump units.
    This is true if they are moving/are not moving/have yet to move/before or after the game/before you even write your army list.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/31 10:33:15


    You wart-ridden imbeciles! 
       
    Made in im
    Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





    Liverpool

     fuusa wrote:
    This is true if they are moving/are not moving/have yet to move/before or after the game/before you even write your army list.
    No it most certainly isn't true.
    That has been shown over and over again.
    There are 3 set times when a flight mode can be selected. And if no mode is selected, it is NOT described as moving like a JMC.
    Please show a rule that allows you to select a flight mode during reserve.
    The times you can are clearly listed, reserve isn't one of them.
       
    Made in us
    Sneaky Lictor





    Idaho

     CrownAxe wrote:
     Steel-W0LF wrote:
     DJGietzen wrote:
     Steel-W0LF wrote:
    True that the nid FAQ is now technically outdated.... But at the same time, none of the rules have changed.
    The Wings Biomorph is different. In the previous codex this biomorph caused the the equipped model to move like jump infantry. This was enough to satisfy page 47 and give the model deep strike because when it moved like jump infantry was not conditional on anything. Now wings change the unit type of the equipped model to a FMC. The discussion here is if that equally satisfies page 47.

    I believe that the awnser can be found in answering 3 simple questions.
  • Is a FMC that is in reserves either swooping or gliding? NO.
  • Is a FMC that is neither swooping or gliding described as moving like a jump unit? NO
  • Is a FMC in reserves described as moving like a jump unit? NO.

  • In the old codex, the question would be different.
  • Is a model in reserves with the Wings biomorph described as moving like a jump unit? YES.
  • However with the new codex, that same question would be answered, NO.

    The difference does not appear drastic, but it is significant.


    Tyranid FAQ:

    Pg 2:
    Change Harpy Unit type to Flying Monstrous Creature.

    Pg 5:
    Can Harpies (which are now FMC's) and Hive Tyrants with the Wings biomorph Deep Strike?
    A: Yes

    Argument defeated.
    FMC's could deepstrike, even those considered FMC's and not just jump infantry.

    1) That FAQ no longer is valid
    2) Is probably just maintaining the status queue of allow those units to still deep strike like they could before 6ed and not resolving this rules conflict

    You are right that its an FAQ thats outdated because no FAQ has come out for the new codex.

    What it does do is establish the FMC's and not just "counts as Jump infantry" could Deepstrike. It knocks "intent" out of the ballpark.

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    The flight mode, which one you are in and when you get to change mode, has no impact on whether the FMC moves like a jump unit. None.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/31 11:09:18


     
       
    Made in im
    Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





    Liverpool

     Steel-W0LF wrote:
    What it does do is establish the FMC's and not just "counts as Jump infantry" could Deepstrike. It knocks "intent" out of the ballpark.
    I'd dispute that.
    You could argue intent for Tyranids only. But not very well.
    Most codex FAQ's get incorporated into the rules of the newer codex. This hasn't.
    It was also wasn't put in a general FAQ, but a Tyranid only, specific to the wing biomorph.
    If you want to argue intent, I'd say it's a clear indication they no longer wish Tyranid FMC's to DS.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Uptopdownunder wrote:
    The flight mode, 2hich one you are in and when you get to change mode, has no impact on whether the FMC moves like a jump unit. None.
    Without them it isn't described as moving like a JMC.
    No flight mode in reserve, not allowance to be treated as a jump unit.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/31 11:10:55


     
       
    Made in us
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    Flight mode does not determine whether the unit moves like a jump MC.
       
    Made in im
    Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





    Liverpool

    Uptopdownunder wrote:
    Flight mode does not determine whether the unit moves like a jump MC.
    Seriously?
    Have you not read the rules? Flight mode is the ONLY thing that lets it move like a JMC.
    Please answer this:
    If not Swooping or gliding (aka a flight mode), is the FMC described as moving like a jump unit?
    Answer with relevant rules quote please.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/31 11:25:54


     
       
    Made in us
    Sneaky Lictor





    Idaho

    Other than a demon prince, which is covered, what other FMCs are there other than nids?

    And do we really need to list the stuff thats FAQd repeatedly?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     grendel083 wrote:
    Uptopdownunder wrote:
    Flight mode does not determine whether the unit moves like a jump MC.
    Seriously?
    Have you not read the rules? Flight mode is the ONLY thing that lets it move like a JMC.
    Please answer this:
    If not Swooping or gliding (aka a flight mode), is the FMC described as moving like a jump unit?
    Answer with relevant rules quote please.

    Give permission for a FMC to move in any way other than a flight mode that is to be treated as jump infantry.
    Answer witb relevant rules quote please.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/31 11:29:00


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    Made in im
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    Liverpool

     Steel-W0LF wrote:
    Other than a demon prince, which is covered, what other FMCs are there other than nids?
    Chaos Space Marine Daemon Prince is the first one that springs to mind.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Steel-W0LF wrote:
    Give permission for a FMC to move in any way other than a flight mode that is to be treated as jump infantry.
    Answer witb relevant rules quote please.
    Is going into reserve movement?
    No it isn't. And that's the time in which it needs to be treated as moving like a JMC in order to gain Deep Strike.
    And that's the time it isn't counted as a JMC, as no flight mode has been selected.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/31 11:31:31


     
       
    Made in us
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    When the unit moves it moves like a Jump MC.
    As both modes stipulate that, mode is irellevant. Entering or leaving either mode does not issue or resind moving like a jump mc. The question isn't "what movement type are you capable of at any given moment" but rather "when you move, how do you move"

    I suggest you read the rules as any further quotes of the rules for FMCs could well see GW issue a C&D for our commercial quanity of rules reproductions.

    You seem to be hell bent on introducing an esoteric notion that isn't part of the rules and doing so never leads to understanding.

    The requirement is that the unit move like a jump unit, fmc cannot move in any way other than as a jump MC, you need nothing more than that.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/31 11:42:52


     
       
    Made in de
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    Uptopdownunder wrote:
    When the unit moves it moves like a Jump MC.


    As far as the RAW are concerned it moves as a jump MC after it has chosen a flight mode and in no other situation. Either disprove or accept that fact.
       
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    Liverpool

    Uptopdownunder wrote:
    When the unit moves it moves like a Jump MC.
    As both modes stipulate that, mode is irellevant. Entering or leaving either mode does not issue or resind moving like a jump mc. The requirement isn't "what movement type are you capable of at any given moment" but rather "when you move, how do you move"

    I suggest you read the rules as any further quotes of the rules for FMCs could well see GW issue a C&D for our commercial quanity of rules reproductions.

    You seem to be hell bent on introducing an esoteric notion that isn't part of the rules and doing so never leads to understanding.

    The requirement is that the unit move like a jump unit, fmc cannot move in any way other than as a jump MC, you need nothing more than that.
    At the point it goes into reserve it is not described as moving like a JMC.
    That's been demonstrated and you have not found anything to contest that.

    The requirement isn't "can it sometimes (maybe) be a JMC in the future? But not right now".
    It is not described as moving like a JMC without a flight mode, so cannot use the rules of a unit type it isn't.
    You're quite literally using a rule you don't have.
       
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     grendel083 wrote:
    At the point it goes into reserve it is not described as moving like a JMC.
    That's been demonstrated and you have not found anything to contest that.


    Nope that hasn't been demonstrated in anyway shape or form and just saying it has doesn't make it so.
    Being in reserve has no impact on how the unit moves.
       
    Made in im
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    Liverpool

    Uptopdownunder wrote:
     grendel083 wrote:
    At the point it goes into reserve it is not described as moving like a JMC.
    That's been demonstrated and you have not found anything to contest that.
    Nope that hasn't been demonstrated in anyway shape or form and just saying it has doesn't make it so.
    Being in reserve has no impact on how the unit moves.
    So you've not read anything posted in this thread? I'll go through step by step again with you.
    First: Without a flight mode chosen (Swooping or Gliding) is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit.
    No it isn't. Can you offer a single rule to contest this?

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/31 12:13:45


     
       
    Made in au
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     grendel083 wrote:

    So you've not read anything posted in this thread? I'll go through step by step again with you.
    First: Without a flight mode chosen (Swooping or Gliding) is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit.
    No it isn't. Can you offer a single rule to contest this?


    The declaration of which particular type of Jump Movement they will use does not alter the fact that when ever they move they move like JMC,
       
     
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