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Uptopdownunder wrote:
The declaration of which particular type of Jump Movement they will use does not alter the fact that when ever they move they move like JMC,

So you're avoiding the question?
You said I haven't demonstrated it. I'm willing to go through step by step and (again) demonstrate it.

A FMC without a flight mode chosen is not described as a Jump unit.
Do you have a rule that contests that?

 grendel083 wrote:

So you're avoiding the question?
You said I haven't demonstrated it. I'm willing to go through step by step and (again) demonstrate it.

A FMC without a flight mode chosen is not described as a Jump unit.
Do you have a rule that contests that?

There is no question to answer because your assertion is simply not valid.
Choosing flight mode does not change the fact that FMC can only move like a jump unit, ergo they are always described as moving like a jump unit.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
There is no question to answer because your assertion is simply not valid.

Its a simple question. I've asked twice and you've avoided it twice.
I can only assume that you have no rule to contest with.
So, first part demonstrated. With no flight mode chosen, a FMC is not described as moving like a Jump unit.


Now when can you select a flight mode?

FMC - Changing Flight Mode wrote:At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding unitl the start of its next turn.

FMC Deployment wrote:A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserve then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

I've highlighted the three and only three times you may (in fact must) declare a Flight mode.
1). Start of it's movement
2). When it deploys
3). When it arrives from reserve.

You will note that not one of these times are met when it goes into reserve.
So when going into reserve it is NOT described as a Jump unit.

And you find anywhere in the rules another time that you can choose a flight mode?
Relevant rules quote please.

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
The declaration of which particular type of Jump Movement they will use does not alter the fact that when ever they move they move like JMC,

So you're avoiding the question?
You said I haven't demonstrated it. I'm willing to go through step by step and (again) demonstrate it.

A FMC without a flight mode chosen is not described as a Jump unit.
Do you have a rule that contests that?

You're arguing the good fight Grendel, now, step back and breathe. Intent is clear they want FMC to be able to DS. Read the fluff at the top of the DS rules.

You've proven your RAW point. Even still the poll shows a good amount of people are gonna play RAI.

Stormbreed wrote:
You're arguing the good fight Grendel, now, step back and breathe. Intent is clear they want FMC to be able to DS. Read the fluff at the top of the DS rules.

You've proven your RAW point. Even still the poll shows a good amount of people are gonna play RAI.

But but but...
I'm enjoying a good debate
I'm sure people are going to play RAI, I'll never tell anyone how to play their game. But here in a rules forum it's good to get the rules right.

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
There is no question to answer because your assertion is simply not valid.

Its a simple question. I've asked twice and you've avoided it twice.
I can only assume that you have no rule to contest with.
So, first part demonstrated. With no flight mode chosen, a FMC is not described as moving like a Jump unit.


Now when can you select a flight mode?

FMC - Changing Flight Mode wrote:At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding unitl the start of its next turn.

FMC Deployment wrote:A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserve then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

I've highlighted the three and only three times you may (in fact must) declare a Flight mode.
1). Start of it's movement
2). When it deploys
3). When it arrives from reserve.

You will note that not one of these times are met when it goes into reserve.
So when going into reserve it is NOT described as a Jump unit.

And you find anywhere in the rules another time that you can choose a flight mode?
Relevant rules quote please.

Nope your wrong.
Flight mode has no impact on whether the FMC moves as a JMC or not.

Ask yourself a simple question, forget everything about reserves, time frames, particular situations, flight modes or any thing else just ask the simple general question.

How does a Flying Monstrous Creature Move? Answer : Like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Nope your wrong.

What part of any of the rules I've quoted are wrong?

Flight mode has no impact on whether the FMC moves as a JMC or not.

It absolutely does! Without a flight mode it does not move like a JMC. Something you have been unable to contest with any rule.

How does a Flying Monstrous Creature Move? Answer : Like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Your answer is incorrect.
It's also not specific.
It does not move like a JMC.

If you'd asked "when on the table, during it's move, How does a FMC move?" Then I could answer that a flight mode has been selected so it can now move like a JMC.

As you have not specified a moment in time, I can only answer with its default movement. Which isn't Jump.

So, you said I hadn't demonstrated that during deployment, with no flight mode selected, a FMC is not described as a Jump unit.
This has once again been demonstrated. And you have been unable to provide any rule to contest anything I've put forward.

So in conclusion. When going into reserve, it is not described as moving like a JMC. Therefore cannot use a JMC rule, so cannot Deepstrike.
Do you have a single rule to contest this conclusion?

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Nope your wrong.

What part of any of the rules I've quoted are wrong?

Flight mode has no impact on whether the FMC moves as a JMC or not.

It absolutely does! Without a flight mode it does not move like a JMC. Something you have been unable to contest with any rule.

How does a Flying Monstrous Creature Move? Answer : Like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

Your answer is incorrect.
It's also not specific.
It does not move like a JMC.

If you'd asked "when on the table, during it's move, How does a FMC move?" Then I could answer that a flight mode has been selected so it can now move like a JMC.

As you have not specified a moment in time, I can only answer with its default movement. Which isn't Jump.

So, you said I hadn't demonstrated that during deployment, with no flight mode selected, a FMC is not described as a Jump unit.
This has once again been demonstrated. And you have been unable to provide any rule to contest anything I've put forward.

So in conclusion. When going into reserve, it is not described as moving like a JMC. Therefore cannot use a JMC rule, so cannot Deepstrike.
Do you have a single rule to contest this conclusion?

Mate there is no rule to support what you are saying, the mode makes no difference as to whether the FMC moves like a JMC or not.
It's only your invention that the mode grants it an ability to move like a JMC, it does not, the FMC always moves like an JMC.

At any other point in time between being injection moulded in Nottingham and being ritually burnt to ash as part of a rage quit does an FMC move in
any way other than a JMC? No it doesn't because when ever it moves, it moves as a JMC . It's as simple as that.

Unless you can prove that in some way other that "I say it does" then I will continue to flatly reject your entire position.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Mate there is no rule to support what you are saying

I've just gone through the rules step by step. You have been unable to contest the rules I posted with a single rule. You are joking with the statement I presume?

, the mode makes no difference as to whether the FMC moves like a JMC or not.

Without a flight mode, it isn't described as moving like a JMC. Rules quotes were supplied, again you have been unable to contest this with a single rule.

It's only your invention that the mode grants it an ability to move like a JMC, it does not, the FMC always moves like an JMC.

Its quite literally what the flight mode rules say. I can only assume this is another of your jokes I'm just not getting. Again you have not supplied a single rule to contest this.

At any other point in time between being injection moulded in Nottingham and being ritually burnt to ash as part of a rage quit does an FMC move in any way other than a JMC? No it doesn't because when ever it moves, it moves as a JMC . It's as simple as that.

You have failed to provide a single rule to support this. I've provided rules that demonstrate this is false. Going into reserve is not movement. You have no rule to contest that. A flight mode cannot be chosen in reserve. You have no rule to contest that. With no flight mode it is not described as moving like a JMC. That is a simple fact, and once again you cannot provide a single rule to contest that.

Unless you can prove that in some way other that "I say it does" then I will continue to flatly reject your entire position.

I notice you don't seem to even listen when I post rules. It's not me saying, I've posted the rules that say it.
You have not provided a single rule to contest anything that I've put forward. Not one.
So please feel free to reject what the rules say. You have been unable to put forward any rule that says otherwise.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Give permission for a FMC to move in any way other than a flight mode that is to be treated as jump infantry.
Answer witb relevant rules quote please.

PAGE 10 AND PAGE 11 OF THE BRB. These pages describe how EVERY model in the game moves unless something else tells us they move in some other way. The FMC rules only describe a FMC moving differently IF swooping or gliding. When not swooping orgliding a FMC movement is described on paged 10 and 11 technically.

Would you enforce this in a friendly game ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Would you enforce this in a friendly game ?

I would enforce this in a friendly game.

None of my regular opponents DS their MC anyway, because they read the rule and play it RAW.

Has it ever come up yet?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Would you enforce this in a friendly game ?

I would enforce this in a friendly game.

None of my regular opponents DS their MC anyway, because they read the rule and play it RAW.

It has only not been RAW for two weeks....sooooo, you didn't play by RAW.

Exactly... that was my point .

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Would you enforce this in a friendly game ?

I would enforce this in a friendly game.

None of my regular opponents DS their MC anyway, because they read the rule and play it RAW.

It has only not been RAW for two weeks....sooooo, you didn't play by RAW.

Only for Tyranids.
This has been RaW for a CSM Daemon Prince for a long time.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Give permission for a FMC to move in any way other than a flight mode that is to be treated as jump infantry.
Answer witb relevant rules quote please.

PAGE 10 AND PAGE 11 OF THE BRB. These pages describe how EVERY model in the game moves unless something else tells us they move in some other way. The FMC rules only describe a FMC moving differently IF swooping or gliding. When not swooping orgliding a FMC movement is described on paged 10 and 11 technically.

That's not true for a number of reasons, again you're trying to introduce concepts that simply don't exist in the game.

If you look on Page 44 you'll see "So far, we've discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry,"
So the rules on page 10 & 11 are not the "base state of all units until otherwise modified" they are simply how infantry move.
The rules in unit types are not described as being modifications to the base method of movement but rather methods of movement all on their own.

FMC's are only ever described as moving like JMC, it just has two modes of doing so. Nothing anywhere causes those descriptions to disappear from Page49 and they are not an ability that is conferred at a particular point in time.

The Logic Equations are:

Move = S OR G
S=JMC
G=JMC

The only conclusion we can draw from that is

Move = JMC

You know he will simply refute you and say the same thing again... plus probably demand you quote rules from the BRB .

Uptopdownunder wrote:
The only conclusion we can draw from that is

Move = JMC

False false false.
It's been demonstrated. You have still not come back with a single rule to contest anything that has been put forward. Not one single rule.

When in reserve it is not described as a Jump unit.
A simple fact you have been unable to contest with any rules.
You're trying to use a Special rule that the model has no permission to use.

As per the tenants of this forum, I'll ask that you actually come up with some rules to support your claims.

The problem with page 44 being a 'prior to this point all rules where infantry only' is simple:
If everything that came before it is not 'default' then we will need every unit type to have it's own 40+ pages detailing all the exact same information outlined for 'infantry' with slight changes to account for each other unit type.

Instead they choose to detail only the individual changes for every Unit Type, leading to the conclusion that 'infantry rules' and 'default rules' are identical for all rule purposes. Without that conclusion then all sorts of things begin to break down. For example: Monstrous creatures can not move because they lack any 'movement' section within their Unit Type entry. Like wise Cavalry units are unable to shoot because they do not have any rules detailing how they go about doing so in their unit entry. That isn't even raising the question of how we go about doing the shooting for a monstrous creature if only Infantry have permission to use the Shooting rules found prior to page 44... Permission to fire multiple weapons is useless if you don't have a shooting sequence to follow.

I don't want to even begin to explain what happens if Special Rules, which fall before page 44, are also 'Infantry Only' because no other unit type would have permission to evoke them making whole sections of Unit Type information irrelevant!

I will have to say this though:
From a rule as written argument it is pretty solid though; while it does break the entire game completely, the book does state that everything before the Unit Type section is 'infantry only' and this is even repeated in the Movement Phase's opening text. Once more we see Game Workshop's rule writing at it's finest, where a simple statement invalidates every Rule informing us how to go about playing the game. So, personally, I rather stick to the format used throughout the book: If the book states 'models' then it is talking about anything with a Unit Type and a Profile, and only when it outright states a Unit Type is the rule limited to that Unit Type.

It doesn't cause the entire game to break to such a degree that the only thing we can legally play is infantry units!

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Would you enforce this in a friendly game ?

I would enforce this in a friendly game.

None of my regular opponents DS their MC anyway, because they read the rule and play it RAW.

It has only not been RAW for two weeks....sooooo, you didn't play by RAW.

No we did, my regular opponent has CSMs...

The rule on page 47 of the BRB

"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

References only the description of the unit. It does not care about the state of any particular FMC unit. It does not care if it is currently moving, waiting in reserve or even if it's been removed as a casualty.

The rule only cares about the description of the unit which has nothing to do with it's current state.

Are FMCs described as 'moving like' jump units?

 Abandon wrote:
Are FMCs described as 'moving like' jump units?

No they are not.
That's been demonstrated many times over.
By default, no they are not. During reserve certainly not.

They can use a rule to later potentially be described as moving like jump infantry.
When not using this rule, no. By default no.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Are FMCs described as 'moving like' jump units?

No they are not.
That's been demonstrated many times over.
By default, no they are not. During reserve certainly not.

They can use a rule to later potentially be described as moving like jump infantry.
When not using this rule, no. By default no.

So you believe placing them in reserves changes their description? How so?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Are FMCs described as 'moving like' jump units?

No they are not.
That's been demonstrated many times over.
By default, no they are not. During reserve certainly not.

They can use a rule to later potentially be described as moving like jump infantry.
When not using this rule, no. By default no.

It has not been demonstrated at all. Give us one scrap of evidence that shows when any unit is in reserve they have no description of how they move.

By default FMC move like JMC because there is no other way for them to move, that makes it the default.

What you are suggesting makes no more sense than suggesting that Eldar who set up in Reserve can never benefit from Battle Focus because they can't run in reserve.

 Abandon wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Are FMCs described as 'moving like' jump units?

No they are not.
That's been demonstrated many times over.
By default, no they are not. During reserve certainly not.

They can use a rule to later potentially be described as moving like jump infantry.
When not using this rule, no. By default no.

So you believe placing them in reserves changes their description? How so?

No I don't.

I believe that choosing a flight mode changes their description.
I believe my previous posts showed this with the relevant rules quotes.

There are set times when you can choose a flight mode. This changed the way they are described as moving (in short from NOT moving like a JMC to moving like one).

So their default movement description is not of a jump unit.

 grendel083 wrote:

As per the tenants of this forum, I'll ask that you actually come up with some rules to support your claims.

Why? You haven't


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

So their default movement description is not of a jump unit.

Give me a page number that says what their default movement description is.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
It has not been demonstrated at all.

I went through it step by step. At each step you could not contest any of the rules I presented. Forgot? Scroll back and read.

Give us one scrap of evidence that shows when any unit is in reserve they have no description of how they move.

I've done that many times. The rule you want is in the Flying Monstrous Creature rules.

By default FMC move like JMC because there is no other way for them to move, that makes it the default.

Prove it. Supply one rule quote. Please. Follow the rules of this forum, and post some evidence or a rule for once.

What you are suggesting makes no more sense than suggesting that Eldar who set up in Reserve can never benefit from Battle Focus because they can't run in reserve.

You want to use Battle focus in Reserve? Seriously?

Please follow the rules of this forum. Post some actual rules instead of these unsupported statements.
To say I've provided no evidence to go with my argument is flat out false.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

As per the tenants of this forum, I'll ask that you actually come up with some rules to support your claims.

Why? You haven't

I haven't posted any rules? No quotes?
I'll say it straight, you know that is an outright lie.

Hopefully you'll remember you manners and apologise when actually come back with some rules support for your statements.

Page number for "default movement" of an FMC please.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Page number for "default movement" of an FMC please.

Have you tried looking at the page with the Flying Monstrous Creature rules?
When not in Swooping or Gliding, what is it's movement described as? A jump unit?