Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Co'tor Shas**

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
Uptopdownunder wrote:
Are you familiar with the meaning of "declare" as distinct to "choose" ?

What's that got to do with anything?

If you read the rule it requires you to declare the mode, you can't declare something that hasn't already been chosen.

So by your logic, it never says that you can choose meaning it never has a mode.

That is all just semantics. When they say declare, they mean choose.

**grendel083**

Quick question for Abandon (and anyone else really):
A hypothetical (I'm trying to think of a real example, but the principles should still work).

A piece of Wargear: Once per game, during the movement phase it allows the model to move like a jump unit.

It is on a model with the unit type Infantry, without the Deep Strike USR.

So one use only, at a set time (that doesn't include going into a Reserve) it can change how it is described as moving.
Can this model Deep Strike?

Edit: is there an actual piece of Wargear that does what I describe?

**Uptopdownunder**

grendel083 wrote:
Quick question for Abandon (and anyone else really):
A hypothetical (I'm trying to think of a real example, but the principles should still work).

A piece of Wargear: Once per game, during the movement phase it allows the model to move like a jump unit.

It is on a model with the unit type Infantry, without the Deep Strike USR.

So one use only, at a set time (that doesn't include going into a Reserve) it can change how it is described as moving.
Can this model Deep Strike?

See now that would be the case where it wouldn't get to deep strike because it has other ways to move other than "like a jump unit"
It's a little like Hammer of Wrath, if you use the Jump Pack you get the HoW Special rule, that doesn't mean you have the HoW special rule at all times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Co'tor Shas wrote:
Uptopdownunder wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
Uptopdownunder wrote:
Are you familiar with the meaning of "declare" as distinct to "choose" ?

What's that got to do with anything?

If you read the rule it requires you to declare the mode, you can't declare something that hasn't already been chosen.

So by your logic, it never says that you can choose meaning it never has a mode.

That is all just semantics. When they say declare, they mean choose.

And see this is where you come a cropper every time. There is no "choice" to be made the unit simply has two particular methods of moving and you must make the declaration of that mode of movement when it does so. At no stage does that alter the fact that is always moves like a JMC.

And once again you are presenting you interpretation as the baseline fact.
I contend that if they meant choose they would say choose, not use a word that has a different meaning.

Either way it makes no difference there is no need to play on meanings of words as the rules are clear, if you are described as moving like a JMC then you get the rules, without conditions or caveats.

**Abandon**

grendel083 wrote:
Abandon wrote:
Hence both are true. Can this be agreed upon?
Yes it can be.

Good. Back to page 47 then

"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

As agreed FMCs a both described as such and not depending on the state of the unit.(swooping/gliding vs all other times).

It seems to me this rule does not care about the state of any particular unit and only cares about the descriptions found in their entry in the codex, BRB, etc.

It also seems to me the rule would not react to the negative. It does not care if a unit is not described as moving like a jump unit and only triggers if a unit is so described.

In that case as both the positive and negative are present the rule would disregard the negative and react to the positive by granting the SRs to the unit.

grendel083 wrote:

Edit: it's refreshing to see a well put forward argument with rules

TY, Same to you

Agree or disagree I always appreciate you input. Straight forward, easy to interpret and often (especially where we disagree) from a perspective I had not considered.

**Stormbreed**

And. Now RAW we have come to a point where the poll and RAI yet again agree.

**Co'tor Shas**

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
Uptopdownunder wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
Uptopdownunder wrote:
Are you familiar with the meaning of "declare" as distinct to "choose" ?

What's that got to do with anything?

If you read the rule it requires you to declare the mode, you can't declare something that hasn't already been chosen.

So by your logic, it never says that you can choose meaning it never has a mode.

That is all just semantics. When they say declare, they mean choose.

And see this is where you come a cropper every time. There is no "choice" to be made the unit simply has two particular methods of moving and you must make the declaration of that mode of movement when it does so. At no stage does that alter the fact that is always moves like a JMC.

And once again you are presenting you interpretation as the baseline fact.
I contend that if they meant choose they would say choose, not use a word that has a different meaning.

Either way it makes no difference there is no need to play on meanings of words as the rules are clear, if you are described as moving like a JMC then you get the rules, without conditions or caveats.

As I said, semantics. I think it means one thing, you think it means another. Our sides will never change until this is FAQed. Heck, I could even take your interpretation of declare to mean that you only have to declare what type it is at the specific time, and can change it's mode when ever I want

Really if you are right about the RAW, I doubt you are right about the RAI. In that case they would have just given FMC deepstrike because it would have it anyway, and they would not have given chaos FMCs deepstrike because they would already have it, but I digress (Hah! I've always wanted to say that!).

In the meantime, I'm going to go play Awsomenauts.

**Abandon**

grendel083 wrote:Quick question for Abandon (and anyone else really):
A hypothetical (I'm trying to think of a real example, but the principles should still work).

A piece of Wargear: Once per game, during the movement phase it allows the model to move like a jump unit.

It is on a model with the unit type Infantry, without the Deep Strike USR.

So one use only, at a set time (that doesn't include going into a Reserve) it can change how it is described as moving.
Can this model Deep Strike?

Edit: is there an actual piece of Wargear that does what I describe?

I would say the units description remains as written until a rule changes it. In the case of an FMC the rule is already in the description and must be accounted for. If a one use special SR, piece of wargear, etc. that can be activated in some way and alter the units description, I would say it does not do so until then as it seems a fairly straight forward requirement for the rule to be activated before any change to the units description is made.

**grendel083**

Abandon wrote:
Good. Back to page 47 then

"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

As agreed FMCs a both described as such and not depending on the state of the unit.(swooping/gliding vs all other times).

It seems to me this rule does not care about the state of any particular unit and only cares about the descriptions found in their entry in the codex, BRB, etc.

It also seems to me the rule would not react to the negative. It does not care if a unit is not described as moving like a jump unit and only triggers if a unit is so described.

In that case as both the positive and negative are present the rule would disregard the negative and react to the positive by granting the SRs to the unit.

I hear what you're saying.
This is a case of interpreting it differently.

To me it is something that must be evaluated at the time when needed. For example:
When entering reserve, is it described as moving like a JMC? At that time no.
During the movement phase when it's on the board? At that time yes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abandon wrote:
I would say the units description remains as written until a rule changes it. In the case of an FMC the rule is already in the description and must be accounted for. If a one use special SR, piece of wargear, etc. that can be activated in some way and alter the units description, I would say it does not do so until then as it seems a fairly straight forward requirement for the rule to be activated before any change to the units description is made.

There are similarities.
A FMC can go an entire game without ever selecting a Flight Mode. It has the potential over the course of a game to never be described as moving like a Jump Unit.

You know my opinion is the FMC has a default movement description of nothing. Without the flight mode it cannot move, as no rule describes how it can.

As a flight mode is a rule that is triggered later, potential never over a game, and not present at the start of the game, I do not consider this to be how a FMC is described as moving. It isn't it's default form of movement, so to say.

It needs a rule, that triggers at a set time, to change the way that it is described as moving.

So just like in the hypothetical question above, it is not described as moving like a Jump unit.
A rule later kicks in that changes that. This rule cannot kick in when it goes into reserve, so does not meet the requirement of "being described as moving like a jump unit" therefore cannot Deepstrike.

This is how my interpretation works at least

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
There is no "choice" to be made the unit simply has two particular methods of moving and you must make the declaration of that mode of movement when it does so.

It's 4:30am here and clearly my brain is slowing down.
I'm sure this isn't that ravings of a mad man, but I'm just reading no sense in this.
How can you declare which of two modes you're using, if you don't choose one?

There are two. You must declare one. But you can't choose? What? How does that even work?
That way madness lies.

**Abandon**

I suppose all that's left to do then is to dissect the statement, analyze it under a microscope, check context, etc.

"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

I'll start by pointing out that the statement starts off broadly encompassing all units that are so described. This generally general type of statement usually precludes the the idea that specific instances are being considered unless noted. How do you feel this kind of overall statement translates into meaning specific or situational conditions?

Units that are currently described as 'moving like jump units' seem much more specific than what is stated IMO.

**Uptopdownunder**

No grendel, madness lies in insisting on things that do not exist.

**Happyjew**

grendel083 wrote:
Quick question for Abandon (and anyone else really):
A hypothetical (I'm trying to think of a real example, but the principles should still work).

A piece of Wargear: Once per game, during the movement phase it allows the model to move like a jump unit.

It is on a model with the unit type Infantry, without the Deep Strike USR.

So one use only, at a set time (that doesn't include going into a Reserve) it can change how it is described as moving.
Can this model Deep Strike?

Edit: is there an actual piece of Wargear that does what I describe?

I don't know about wargear, but there is the BA psychic power "Wings of Sanguinius", which allows a Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack (or jetbike if mounted on a bike). I brought it up earlier, and everyone said no it would not work.

**JinxDragon**

Uptopdownunder,
Hypothetical situations designed to show a fault in logic are normal parts of debates, they can be used to show how a line of reasoning is faulty if you expand the criteria outside of a very narrow focus to include more broad situations. Only if the situation being put forth is completely insane, such as stating that Game Workshop might make a unit that is both Infantry and a Vehicle to disprove that the vehicle and non-vehicles rules should be kept separate, then we can ridicule. The idea that a piece of war-gear or psychic power could meet the requirements of one sides argument is a very plausible situation and should be reviewed to better understand the rule itself. If you wish to dispute that it is an impossible situation, feel free to do so, but we both know that it is very likely that such a piece of War-Gear exists, even before we take Happyjew's confirmation of a power which does just that into consideration.

So there is a good question:
Does Librarians get to Deep Strike because it is possible that at some undisclosed point in the future they might move like a jump unit?

**PrinceRaven**

No, as until the power is cast they follow the movement rules for Infantry.

**grendel083**

PrinceRaven wrote:
No, as until the power is cast they follow the movement rules for Infantry.

This is the same logic I've been using on the FMC's.
No, until they choose a flight mode they follow their default movement rules.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
No grendel, madness lies in insisting on things that do not exist.

I agree.
Like using the rules for a Jump unit when it is not currently a jump unit.

**Dozer Blades**

Wrong - an FMC can always swoop or glide... It does not require the roll of dice to see if they can.

**grendel083**

Dozer Blades wrote:
Wrong - an FMC can always swoop or glide... It does not require the roll of dice to see if they can.

That's been proven wrong countless times.
Even the "Pro Deep Strike" side won't agree with you there.
There's parts of the FMC rules that state when a flight mode can be chosen. That alone proves that they don't "always" swoop or glide.
It's entirely possible for a game to end without a FMC ever using Swoop or Glide.
Find permission to choose a flight mode in reserve. For once back up your statements with a rule please.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
I don't know about wargear, but there is the BA psychic power "Wings of Sanguinius", which allows a Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack (or jetbike if mounted on a bike). I brought it up earlier, and everyone said no it would not work.

So what is the difference between this Pyschic power allowing the model to Deep Strike and the FMC?
By default neither are described as moving like Jump units.
Both have a rule that change that later on to move like Jump units.

**Dozer Blades**

Of course an FMC isn't swooping or gliding while it's held in reserve, but beyond that point it's one or the other. And you must declare which mode at the start of each turn... This is all very basic and doesn't need a quote from the rules IMO.

**grendel083**

Dozer Blades wrote:
Of course an FMC isn't swooping or gliding while it's held in reserve

Excellent! So when in reserve it isn't a Jump unit. So can't Deep Strike.

**Dozer Blades**

I have to disagree with you there. RAI definitely now, RAW it's a real stretch. I doubt anyone would ever try to enforce this either in a real game, which makes it pointless IMO.

**grendel083**

Dozer Blades wrote:
I have to disagree with you there. RAI definitely now, RAW it's a real stretch. I doubt anyone would ever try to enforce this either in a real game, which makes it pointless IMO.

So you know it's not a Jump unit in reserve, but want to use the jump unit rules anyway?
As to RAI, they could have simply made Glide it's default movment. Why didn't they?
The rules would have been much easier to follow had they done so. Perhaps to stop exactly this?
Also the old Tyranid FAQ had to add the ability to Deep Strike to their Winged Biomorph. Something not needed if the base rules already had it. Also telling is that it was specific to the Winged Biomorph, not FMC's in general.
CSM Daemon Princes have never had an FAQ allowing Deepstrike.
So if you want to talk intent, there is alot showing the intent is for FMC's to NOT be able to Deep Strike as standard.

**Happyjew**

Grendel, now you know why, when I referenced the blast re-rolls, I said using logic put forth then, BA librarians could always DS.

My view is a follows:
Rule requires the model to be described as moving like jump units. Full stop. No modifiers, nothing saying they must be described as such at all times. Since, a FMC is described as moving as such, whenever it moves, it meets the requirements. In the case of the librarian, one could make the same argument, just as one could argue that Preferred Enemy (Orks) grants a blast re-roll against Tyranids.

**PanzerLeader**

Happyjew wrote:
Grendel, now you know why, when I referenced the blast re-rolls, I said using logic put forth then, BA librarians could always DS.

My view is a follows:
Rule requires the model to be described as moving like jump units. Full stop. No modifiers, nothing saying they must be described as such at all times. Since, a FMC is described as moving as such, whenever it moves, it meets the requirements. In the case of the librarian, one could make the same argument, just as one could argue that Preferred Enemy (Orks) grants a blast re-roll against Tyranids.

Plus, there is a default flight mode for a deployed FMC: glide. It can elect to change when it moves but once deployed it is in glide mode until changed. The only instance in which the rules do not cover an FMCs mode is when it starts in reserve because then it has not been deployed. Glide and Swoop also contain a description of "exactly like a jump monstrous creature" in describing how the FMC acts in various phases. While strict RAW might not let you determine the flight mode of an FMC before it enters the table, I think the RAI is pretty clear here that FMCs are jump monstrous creatures with additional rules for swooping and should be allowed to deep strike.

**Steel-W0LF**

Naysayers seem to think the requirement is "stands still as a jump unit...."

The requirement is "moves as a jump unit...."

Which implies in the requirement that it's asking about when the model does move, is it considered jump. The answer to that has to be yes, when the model does move it is considered jump.

**Abandon**

The primary question to me is regarding the statement 'units described as moving like jump units'.

Do they mean the units description as in its entry in the codex, unit type, etc? ...or is it a description of the current state of the unit accounting for wargear, powers, etc.?
Basic nature of the unit vs current nature of the unit.

It seems to me (and this is a slight alteration to previous thoughts on the matter) that the rules only deem the entries and unit types as 'descriptions' of a unit. While added rules from effects, wargear, etc can change the normal operations of a unit it is never stated that these things alter the units description(unless noted of course). It is after all a permissive rule set and permission is needed for such a change.

The glide and swoop rules are a part of the FMC entry and hence are always a part of their description.

**PrinceRaven**

grendel083 wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
No, as until the power is cast they follow the movement rules for Infantry.
This is the same logic I've been using on the FMC's.
No, until they choose a flight mode they follow their default movement rules.

FMCs always follow the movement rules for FMCs, and there is no way you can move a FMC without moving it like a Jump unit. You can move a BA Librarian without moving it like a Jump unit, indeed without Wings of Sanguinius being active on the model you have to.

**brassangel**

PrinceRaven wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
No, as until the power is cast they follow the movement rules for Infantry.
This is the same logic I've been using on the FMC's.
No, until they choose a flight mode they follow their default movement rules.

FMCs always follow the movement rules for FMCs, and there is no way you can move a FMC without moving it like a Jump unit. You can move a BA Librarian without moving it like a Jump unit, indeed without Wings of Sanguinius being active on the model you have to.

This. Plus, from another source:

FACT: Both modes of Swooping and Gliding are as Jump Units and have all rules thereof.
A FMC per BRB pg 49,
GLIDING: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
SWOOPING: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications: It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24"."

A Jump Unit per the rules in BRB pg 47, "Units that are described as 'moving' like Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

FACT: A Deep strike FMC is under the effects of swooping from deep strike as it is considered having moved the previous turn.

BRB FAQ: Q: A model that deploys by Deep Strike is considered to have moved in its previous Movement phase – in the case of vehicles, they are considered to have moved at Cruising Speed. Yet a Heavy Vehicle always counts as having remained Stationary for the purposes of determining which weapons it can fire (and at what Ballistic Skill). Which takes precedence when a Heavy Vehicle deploys by Deep Strike? (p83)
A: Heavy Vehicle takes precedence.

BRB does not say that you have to have moved 12" to be considered in Swoop, it states under Changing Flight Mode: "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn." This is possibly validated by a FAQ that says an FMC enters play from Deep Strike swooping. (I could not find this in a FAQ.) You don't get to move 12-24" after immediately after Deep Striking. So you can hold this mode and all benefits even if you did not/could not legally move until the start of its next turn. Of course if you can legally move then you are required to move the 12-24" per the rules of swooping.

FACT: FMC can Deep Strike as per the rules of a Jump Unit.
If in FAQ indeed states that a FMC enters play swooping from Deep Strike then this indicates that a FMC can Deep Strike from reserve further validating a FMC is a Jump unit.

Interesting points of note in there.

I think it's pretty obvious that FMC's can Deep Strike following entering Ongoing Reserve. The rules all support that. The subjective, inductive, and borderline philosophical reasoning to the contrary seems like nonsense stretched to transparent lengths.

**grendel083**

brassangel wrote:
Interesting points of note in there.

And some crucially missing ones.
Honestly I dislike the method of sticking the word "fact" in so many times then making a logical leap without it in fact being a fact. This source is using flawed logic, fact.

Also this thread was long dead and for good reason. Let it die.

I think it's pretty obvious that FMC's can Deep Strike following entering Ongoing Reserve. The rules all support that. The subjective, inductive, and borderline philosophical reasoning to the contrary seems like nonsense stretched to transparent lengths.

Ongoing reserve is a different matter to what the thread was on about.
Trying to use the rules for jump units, when it isn't at that time described as one, in order to a Deep Strike was the issue.

**brassangel**

I only linked to dakkadakka from another site because the debate sprung up there.

I also don't necessarily agree with all of said poster's points, or the use of the word "FACT," unless it leads directly to a clearly written rule.

If it was supposed to die, you really didn't have much reason to respond, did you?

I do agree with many of your previous points, and maintain that it seems obvious FMC's can Deep Strike.

I feel like these rules arguments spring up everywhere, but when I sit down with players, in person, and we just do a little reading, it seems quite obvious what is written. A lot of people want to twist it out of hate for a tactic or army, and/or to benefit some extreme beardiness.

**grendel083**

How is it obvious?
When in reserve they have no flight mode selected. They can't at that time.
So they aren't described as moving like a jump unit. And have no access to Deep Strike.
So how can they use a rule they don't have?

**PrinceRaven**

I see someone knows the spell thread necromancy

We've already had this argument, grendel cannot be convinced. Believe me, I've tried. Let it go. Let it go, can't hold it back any more