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I've always had people tell me mortars aren't the greatest choice for heavy weapons. But here's a thought: in today's shooty happy edition, how viable do you think mortar teams could be for disrupting gunlines and such? I figure I could load up on a good number of mortar teams (and that can be a lot with IG) to force out a bunch of pinning rolls. And most things out there save for Marines have pretty crummy leaderships, so I imagine you can make a few key units Go To Ground. Then, send in roving units (maybe even Flamer Sentinels •gasp•) with flamers to do mop up since those weapons don't care about cover. If you don't assault, you won't incur Overwatch (the only shooting allowed for Pinned units if I recall). Repeat mortar fire through successive turns to lock down opposing scoring troops. Could this work? I ask only because I'm not terribly aware of what tricks opposing codexes could do to circumvent this tactic. And, I also realize this is just for opposing troops (specifically gunlines)...not trying to deal with Flyers or MCs et al for the moment. I mean, could this even be a viable Killteam tactic for IG? Mortar teams and a roving Sentinel?

Nope, still not viable. Mortars don't do enough damage, each blast will only hit one model at most and they don't reliably wound anything. And against gunlines they suffer from having only 48" range. If you want to inflict pinning tests then take heavy support artillery and Vultures.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
And most things out there save for Marines have pretty crummy leaderships, so I imagine you can make a few key units Go To Ground.

Actually poor LD is kind of a myth. IG gunlines have commissars and "get back in the fight", mech IG gunlines obviously ignore mortars entirely, Tau gunlines have ethereals and models that are very difficult for mortars to wound, Eldar "gunlines" are all in transports that ignore mortars, etc.

Then, send in roving units (maybe even Flamer Sentinels •gasp•) with flamers to do mop up since those weapons don't care about cover.

Or, instead of screwing around with suicidal garbage units like Sentinels you could just shoot them to death from a safe distance. A +1 cover bonus isn't so important that you need to panic and start taking bad units to ignore it, just kill the unit the way you kill every other similar target.

If you don't assault, you won't incur Overwatch (the only shooting allowed for Pinned units if I recall).

Pinned units can still fire snap shots.

Repeat mortar fire through successive turns to lock down opposing scoring troops.

But the problem here is that opposing scoring troops are usually perfectly happy to GTG on an objective, so you aren't accomplishing very much.

I mean, could this even be a viable Killteam tactic for IG? Mortar teams and a roving Sentinel?

Nope. Mortars are really bad at killing stuff when there's zero chance of hitting more than one model, pinning is worthless when 99% of the time inflicting a single wound to trigger a pinning test means you killed the model you would pin already, and it's difficult to get more than 1-2 mortars in a 200 point list (remember that kill team doesn't let you take pieces of a platoon without the prerequisites).

Well, I have been Devistated my Mortars vs. my Space Wolves.
You need to use them is in mass.

I have employed mortars to great effect. Especially against xenos.

Only ever use them in HWS though, never a stand alone team in another squad.

A Manticore or Colossus will do the same job a bunch of mortars better and you can save the HW slots to boot. Lascannons are the best for this slot because you really can't go wrong with them.

Fair point about mortars being poor at wounding. I was exploring the idea of trying to find cheap multiple sources of pinning. And mortars are definitely dirt cheap to field. To clarify a bit:

-I figure that there are lot of things out there that can bolster LD. The idea was cheap multiple shots that will force multiple tests, eventually something will fail...hopefully.

"...A +1 cover bonus isn't so important that you need to panic and start taking bad units to ignore it..."
-Who said anything about panicking? Sentinels always make for great hyperbole.

"Pinned units can still fire snap shots."
-I'd rather have a gunline make shots at me with Snap Shots than at full BS.

"But the problem here is that opposing scoring troops are usually perfectly happy to GTG on an objective, so you aren't accomplishing very much."
-I was thinking of trying to lock down opposing scorers before they get to objectives, or at the least slow them down.

"Mortars are really bad at killing stuff when there's zero chance of hitting more than one model, pinning is worthless when 99% of the time inflicting a single wound to trigger a pinning test means you killed the model you would pin already"
- But doesn't the Unit take the Pinning test? Even if there's just a single hit/casualty against one model, I thought the Unit is still subject to the test.

Anyhow...it was just a thought. Was trying to conceptualize the idea of forcing a lot of pinning tests on an opposing force (assuming it isn't a Mech list), and seeing how cheap mortars are and all....

60 points is too expensive for a 3 mortar team.

15 points is a good price for 3 mortars added to infantry squads if you don't have the 60 points to spare on lascannons and/or have enough lc. It all depends on the list.

if a large squad is perfectly spread out then a scatter result of 1 to 5" is more likely to catch 2 or 3 models than a direct hit.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
And mortars are definitely dirt cheap to field.

They really aren't, because you can't ignore carrier costs. A mortar isn't 5 points, it's 5 points plus the cost of the model holding it. A mortar HWS is 60 points, almost as much as a far superior Griffon. An infantry squad with a mortar is 55 points, compared to an infantry squad with an AC at 60 points or a LC at 70, either of which will do far more than the mortar squad.

The idea was cheap multiple shots that will force multiple tests, eventually something will fail...hopefully.

The problem is that by the time you've forced that many tests you've spent so much on bad weapons that you aren't going to win anyway. You're better off just taking conventional weapons and killing the entire unit instead of screwing around trying to pin it.

-Who said anything about panicking? Sentinels always make for great hyperbole.

If you're taking Sentinels to deal with a +1 cover bonus then you're either panicking and desperately cramming every possible no-cover weapon into your list, or you're really bad at evaluating units.

"Pinned units can still fire snap shots."
-I'd rather have a gunline make shots at me with Snap Shots than at full BS.

I'm just correcting your statement that pinned units can only fire overwatch. They can still shoot any time they would normally shoot, they just do it at BS 1.

"But the problem here is that opposing scoring troops are usually perfectly happy to GTG on an objective, so you aren't accomplishing very much."
-I was thinking of trying to lock down opposing scorers before they get to objectives, or at the least slow them down.

Anything that has to move up to claim objectives is going to have a transport, and transports don't care about mortars. The only scoring units you're going to see that don't have some kind of transport/deep strike/etc are ones that camp in their own deployment zone, or maybe the rare unit that has the durability to survive walking to an objective and will laugh at mortars.

- But doesn't the Unit take the Pinning test? Even if there's just a single hit/casualty against one model, I thought the Unit is still subject to the test.

This is in reply to kill team, where each model is a single-model unit and entirely independent of all other models on the table. The only time you'll ever get a pinning test with a mortar in kill team is if you get a wound on a multi-wound model, and multi-wound models are pretty rare.

Imo, best killteam ig list is vets in chimera and ratlings. Don't think mortars will do anything useful in killteam. They need a clustered foe to do damage and cause pinning for the squad. In killteam there are no squads, and enemies are spread. Means u're wasting points for nothing.

The rest would be ok to deal with. The range is the dealbreaker against them though. Not needing a LOS is cool and all but with the small template, it kinda makes scatter a lot bigger of a factor.
It is also true of the low leadership being a myth. It seems like everyone and their kid brother is fearless, super charismatic or has some special thing like that. The units that dont,. well they usually dont get invited out to play.

I occasionally use a Mortar HWS.

As part of a gunline, they can be handy to hide out of LOS in position to grab an objective if other units get blown up / run away. They don't contribute much damage, but they contribute more than an Infantry Squad that purposely hides out of LOS all game to ensure it's around at the end.

I also use them as "distraction" units. For example, in a DOW deployment, I might castle up on the left side, but put an objective on the right. I put the HWS on the right, and have them hustle off to the objective. If my opponent sends something after them, they've committed vastly larger resources to that squad, which helps me to secure my castle. Think about the relative power levels of a cheap Mortar team compared to a combat squad of Marines in a Razorback. Those Razor-marines probably cost 2 times the Mortar squad, and could be devastating if they reach the castle. Even better, is that the Marine player pretty much needs to send two such squads to deal with the HWS, as a single squad will have their ride popped and be shot up by "big guns". If they ignore them, I get a free objective and after two or three turns, I can start raining pot-shots at them.

I often use a Colossus, so even if they send some infantry after the objective to claim it, and get there, a lucky shot from the Colossus and "Poof!" there goes the enemy infantry. 40k isn't just about killyness. Some units have game winning plays that have nothing to do with killing something.

I have on occasion thrown 5 points at one on a bubble wrap infantry squad. They can be useful but you have to expect fairly little of them. They are not a source of real damage. They are a nuicence to the opponent and an occasional pinning check. Honestly they are very bad at putting wounds on anything. This means they rarely cause pinning checks and most targets they do manage to get pinning checks on have some sort of counter to pinning. Examples; orks (fearless), nids (fearless), IG (LC or CCS for Ld10 or orders), Tau (ethereal and Sv4+).

Your best targets tend to be exposed eldar guardians and kroot. You can usually get casualty a turn and you have a better than 10% chance to pin them.

I would love to see some upgrade for these in the new codex as the FW DKoK mortar HWT looks great.

When fired in absolute absurd numbers, (which IG should do anyways) I've seen them decimating things I didn't expect them too. Good targets include any light infantry models like DE, Eldar Guardians, IG, Fire Warriors, etc.

I disagree, behind a ADL my two mortar team blew away a small choas squad and then a hellhound came into save them, they did far better than i ever expected but due to the random nature of 6th this may have been just a fluke. I don't have any HWS other than my mortar team (my guard is only a small force) but they do well when they need too, far better than my sniper squad (HWT)

If mortars had realistic effects they would be no brainer choices. Mortars have a higher explosive to size ratio than artillery shells and thus should be more lethal. They should have a large blast radius even if they keep their current strength/ap stats.

That said, when I ran my Elysians I never left home without at least two Mortar squads to supplement the two missile squads. I found the fire support useful and more often than not they would get their points.

About 5 point mortars. A mortar team doesn't cost 2 guardsmen and 5 points.

It costs 5 points and for that you gain a mortar, lose 1 flashlight, lose an attack on the charge the unit will never make, and the possibility of taking 2 wounds from an ID weapon. Other than that the squad is still 10 wounds and has 8 out of 9 flashlights.

The only reason I don't use mortars extensively in my platoon is it slows down tournament play and I'm already too slow with the massive amount of guardsmen and pie plates that I have to deal with.