15mm Bolt Action. Pics added 4/9

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**dj0311dj**

marielle wrote:
dj0311dj wrote:
marielle wrote:
dj0311dj wrote:
marielle wrote:

As for Bolt Action, I am not completely against any game or rule set. My issue is that the design uses weapon ranges to achieve the fire and movement aspects of WWII infantry combat, which to me is a poor decision - especially when one considers the ground scale at 28mm (assuming you follow the model of using the figures and rules from the same company) the effective range for a WWII rifle is roughly the equivalent of an 18th century smoothbore musket.

One thing you have to consider with the ranges is that it's not the maximum effective range of the weapon but an effective engagement range in a combat situation. Is is easy to hit a target at 500m in the prone on a rifle range with proper respiratory pause, sight picture and sight alignment. It is a completely different story under fire with smoke, dust, explosions and adrenaline.

Personally at 28mm I do feel the ranges are a little short for anything outside a house to house engagement but you also have to remember your models aren't ducking and weaving like a person in combat. I do think that 15mm is a much better scale and things seem more realistic in the sense of ranges and maneuver space.

28mm is @1/50th or 1/48th depending on you choice, therefore a 6' by 4' table is @200' by 300' (or about the size of a standard football pitch)', so I am not sure why you are talking about ranges of 500m. One would need to use 6mm figures on a standard table to get ranges anything close to 500m.

It makes no sense that a rifle has a maximum range of 100', even if you are prone with a proper respiratory pause.

I think you have missed my point. I've got multiple brands of 28mm, all approx 1 1/4" tall. Call that the average height of a man at 6' and you looking at about 230' X 346' on a 4' X 6' table.

500yds is the effective range of an M1 rifle. That range is only achieved on closed ranges in training using the techniques I mentioned perviously. While that can easily be achieved in that situation on a stationary target it cannot be reliably achieved in combat against a moving target in cover or concealment. Most firefights happen much closer with multiple line of sight obstructions effectively making combat effective range more like 100 to 200 yds or 300-600'.

24" in this scale is about 115' which like I said before I do feel is too short. I didn't say maximum effective range of a rifle was 100' in the prone with proper respatory pause I said it was representative of a combat engagement range.

A 18th century musket was used en masse at 50yds, over open terrain, not aimed at individuales and simply a precurser to a bayonet charge. It was still not reliably accurate at that range.

When we use 15mm we have a table that is more like 384' X 576' with 24" being 192' which we feel is just a touch more accurate.

Instead of using pedantry and sophistry, go back and look at my initial criticism - namely....

"As for Bolt Action, I am not completely against any game or rule set. My issue is that the design uses weapon ranges to achieve the fire and movement aspects of WWII infantry combat, which to me is a poor decision."

btw I enjoy watching you twist in the wind, and find your attempts to teach me to suck eggs amusing,

There is no need to lash out. I was simply giving you a legitimate reason for weapons that can theoretcally make shots across entire the table to have a limited range in game. Your comparison to an 18th century muskets range is harsh and unfounded and personally I don't see how the weapon ranges are used to achieve fire and maneuver either. Fire and Manuever is a tactic designed to close with the enemy to improve your ability to engage effectively and eliminate the threat. That is fully achieved here and to my mind accurately represented.

I'm sorry for trying to give a point of view that was contrary to yours. Just because a weapon is able to reach a certain range doesn't mean it can realistically be done in combat or should be portrayed that way in a game or sim. Most people really have no notion of the reality of combat, they see something on tv or read it online and think that must be how it is.

Lastly I fail to see how anything I have said is sophistry. Please enlighten me.

**marielle**

dj0311dj... last time I didn't understand you... now I am lashing out... is there no limit to your rhetorical skills? Oh wait I just noticed you latest flourish... "Most people really have no notion of the reality of combat, they see something on tv or read it online and think that must be how it is."... lol, good one....

Anywho...

Let's recap shall we...

I was asked if I completely dislike Bolt Action. I said I didn't, but offered the criticism that I don't like the weapon ranges. Which are equivalent to 18th century smooth bore muskets. Which it is.

You then jump in, presumably to defend Bolt Action, and contrary to your claim, far from presenting a a view contrary to mine, all you have shown is that you are happy with the skewed choices concerning weapons ranges for the sake of game play. I am pleased for you.

**Strombones**

This is seriously derailing my happy Bolt Action Thread.

**Anpu42**

Strombones wrote:
This is seriously derailing my happy Bolt Action Thread.

Yeup

I probably wont play with the ranges.
I do have buckets of A&A Minis that I will probably use. Terrain I am a little light on, but I think we can make it work.

**CptJake**

Strombones wrote:
yeah I'm mean the anti tank missile. We have a running joke that My Bolt Action Germans Will soon be able to upgrade panzerschrecks to javelins in the new armies of germany book.

Though I'm sure a modern warfare 15mm game is not far off in the list of things to do. Khufasan minis might be good for that.

Edit. Also, this picture is motivating.

Khurasan's are really nice. I am biased though, I helped a bit on the research for them. Rebel also make decent moderns, as do Eureka. I still use my old Peter Pig for the US and have insurgents from a slew of sources.

**Easy E**

At 15mm I wouldn't change the written ranges/movement distances in the rule book. They will still work fine, and give you a better sense of maneuver.

**marielle**

Strombones wrote:
This is seriously derailing my happy Bolt Action Thread.

Indeed.

Anywho..,

If you are making buildings the card used for mounting pictures is your friend. It's cheap to buy, and easily scored with a dental tool to get the brick pattern.

Here's a ruined barn I made for my WWI project...

Coconut matting, chopped up a bit, makes great wheat fields, pan scourers are ideal for hedges, and if you use 2mm mdf to back any terrain piece, it is simple and fairly cheap to build a great looking table that is easily transportable.

Oh and there is a Chinese company on ebay that sells great trees for 7 quid for a 100, that are well worth checking out.

**LuciusAR**

The Khurasan figures are lovely, the only obsitcal to me buying lots is the shipping costs from the US. The Peter Pig ones are pretty good. Their AK-47 range can easily be adapted to almost any Middle Eastern, African or Soviet Bloc nation. I am still considering a modern skirmish project in 15mm, but it's a long way away.

It’s a shame the range argument spoiled the thread earlier on, but I think that a 24” range of a rifle on table is fine.

After WW2 there was a study by the US and if I remember correctly they could not find a single small arms engagement in the entire war that occurred at a greater range than 200 yards. The vast majority of firefights happening at range of less than 50 yards. This was a big factor in the decision to switch to smaller caliber assault rifles later on as the additional range granted by larger caliber rifle rounds was discovered to be largely redundant.

In a 28mm game 24” represents about 40 yards. I’d say that’s about right for effective rifle ranges in battlefield conditions.

**CptJake**

40 yards is really, really short. That is inside hand grenade range. Unless you are actually inside buildings or REALLY dense jungle, 40 yards is way too short a distance.

**dj0311dj**

Here is my Para army, it's made up of half a FoW paratrooper company box, the FoW Easy Company pack for flavor and a few additional Battlefront Models. All together about $50 worth of models.

**CptJake**

What do the different colors on the base edges signify?

**dj0311dj**

Unit distinction, the color on the models right is the squad type and the color on the models left is the squad it belongs to. Blue is Veteran Infantry (Veteran Paratroopers), Red is Ranger (Pathfinders) and Green is Paratroopers. Yellow is first squad Purple is second squad.

**DarkWind**

The OPer inspired me to do Bolt Action in 15mm I've had some Japanese sitting around for years in hopes of Mid or late war FOW rules but here they are now converting for Bolt Action!!

Spoiler:

**Strombones**

I'm very happy that some of you have decided to take the 15mm path! It is very easy on the wallet , needs little time to assemble and paint, and requires much less space.

Our latest games have been played on a 3x4 board. After a massive weekend long 3000 point battle we scaled our weekday games down to 750 points. Its amazing how well the game works on a spectrum of point levels. I thought that a 3x4 would be too small but it has worked out quite well. I'm confident that up to a 1000 points could be played on it with ease.

@Darkwind.Thanks for the pics. Now you need some Marines to defend the island from!

And some pics. The 3x4 board, my small American Airborne army, and a Plastic Soldier Company Panzer IV ausf F2

Thanks again for the replies and please share any 15mm bolt action stuff you are doing with us.

**DarkWind**

Don't worry the USMC is on it's way as we speek

I hope to have some pics of games soon!!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you know if Bolt Action has rules for the Chinese currently? I would like to do Second Sino-Japanese War if they have the rules to support it.

**Strombones**

Great we'd love to see some pics.

And no I'm pretty certain that there isn't any rules for chinese at the moment, but considering the fair pace that warlord is publishing supplements and that the less known axis powers recently got a book, I would say it could be a possibility in the future.

**General Seric**

I started working on some 15mm Bolt Action armies about a week ago with my excess Germans, Italians, and Americans after seeing this thread, but have ran into a problem with storage.

I can't think of anything that would store my finished troops safely, as being based on pennies makes them too small for foam or my storage method for FoW. Any ideas?

**GiraffeX**

15mm Bolt Action seems a really good idea, I'm not really into WW2 games but a small skirmish game like this looks really fun.

**Strombones**

I've found that a small cardboard box with a piece of foam laid over the top that gets pressed down when the lid is closed works pretty well.

If anyone has a 15mm army based individually post up some pictures and show us what you got!

**Big P**

Here are some speed painted 15mm PSC Yanks for the Battlegroup rules, not bolt action, actually for intro games at shows...

**Strombones**

Yeah I'm liking these. Can't wait to get my hands on some battlegroup rules and a box of the "next gen" psc British infantry. Are they available to purchase yet?

**Big P**

The British have been out a while...

**dj0311dj**

Those Next Gen British look really nice, I'd like to seem more Next Gen sculpts in the future. While we are talking about new mins anyone got any leads on Fallschirmjager stg 44s and or US Infantry/Paratrooper B.A.R. Blisters?

**LuciusAR**

I can't think of anything that would store my finished troops safely, as being based on pennies makes them too small for foam or my storage method for FoW. Any ideas?

I store mine in old video tape boxes with strips of magnitic tape glued to the bottom of the inside to secure the pennies in place. All pennies post about 1992 will be attracted to magnets. The boxes themselves can be found in any charity show for about 20p, just chuck the tape away (unless you want to watch it that is).

**frozenwastes**

I got magnetic sheets from the dollar store and sorted my pennies based on whether or not they stuck to the magnets. Then I got sewing/bead containers from a craft store and cut up thin blister type foam to go on top of the 15mm miniatures (not that they need it with the magnets, but just to be sure).

**General Seric**

Well, its too late for magnets now, almost half of my army is based on pre-1990 pennies...

**Scott**

@ strombones - the painting on your minis is great.

Also, many thanks for the coat-hanger hedgerows! Great idea!

**Azazelx**

Nice work here. I bought a couple of boxes of BF figures (SS Panzergrenadiers and Paras) specifically to try out 15mm Bolt Action, but haven't gotten around to.. anything yet.

Still, it's on the list, and threads like this just make me inspired to get something started!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Strombones wrote:

Also we love bolt action at 15mm. But we also have to admit that the patrol phase jump off point that we stole
from toofatlardies is half the fun and changes the game completely.

This intrigues me. Which of their rulesets is it from? They have a few on their site...

**Strombones**

@ Scott. Thank you sir. I was pretty smug myself when I thought of it. If you are going to make some I would suggest covering the bushes with watered down PVA after the first round of gluing to the wire. Should harden them up a bit and extend their life span.

@Azazelx. The rule set is called Chain of Command. I have yet to actually play it but I have heard some good things about it. They have a multipart series on youtube explaining it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiT70m6CJO8

For the latest update on our 15mm Bolt Action gaming, dj0311dj and I have started a game pitting two TO&E'd platoons against each other.

1 Army Airborne paratrooper platoon vs. 1 Panzergrenadier platoon. No tanks, no Divisional support, no frills. All weapons, squad sizes ect.. as historically accurate as possible. It has been a blast so far.

It started on Monday but it is only on turn 2 at the moment due to a significant interruption of alcohol and USMC reminiscing.

Houses are 4ground 15mm.

**ancientsociety**

Having watched BA played in 28mm and thinking it was too large, playing it in 15mm is such a great idea!

I have a ton of FOW Afrika Korps that I'll never assemble as a complete FOW army, this would be a great use for them. Is there a supplement for DAK? I don't see them in the main rulebook.