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 wowsmash wrote:
Didn't care for the mold line placement but I didn't have any trouble gluing the model's together. I just used CA glue.

What kind of glue is this, please.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
Didn't care for the mold line placement but I didn't have any trouble gluing the model's together. I just used CA glue.

What kind of glue is this, please.

I think he means CyanoAcrylate a.k.a superglue.

I normally use Locktite gel (blue) for everything (resin, metal, GW plastic, PP plastic, finecast, restic, bones, my own fingers) and I've yet to find a material that it can't stick together with a pin or two.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
Didn't care for the mold line placement but I didn't have any trouble gluing the model's together. I just used CA glue.

What kind of glue is this, please.

By CA I'm assuming they mean cyanoacrylate which is the chemical name for superglue.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
It is worth noting that the plastic used by PP is apparently almost exactly the same stuff used for Mantic's "restic" or resin plastic material.

Some sort of PVC formulation. Not as good as a nice sprue in any way.

Harder to clean up, harder to glue, sometimes warps, generally more expensive.

And both of those are the same sort as Reaper uses for Bones. And just barely removed from the type of plastic used to make polymer clays like FIMO and Sculpey. All of them glue up fine using PVC cement.

I have PP PVC models, Mantic "restic", and Bones. Bones is different and considerably more rubbery in my experience.

Yes, but his point was that it was vinyl based and PVC cement works on it.

I've had zero problems with superglue on any and all of these miniatures. Including bones conversions where I pinned and glued rigid metal parts to the flexible bones. No paint issues nor breaking.

The PVC plastic is working for privateer in that people keep buying it and they keep making it and while it's not super easy to use like a styrene kit, it's okay for the intended purpose.

I hope they upgrade yet again and go with a styrene option at some point, but I don't hate their plastics in general anymore.

 AduroT wrote:
First off, you do not have resin Reductors, you have plastic Reductors. It's a different kind of plastic than what GW uses yes, but it's still just plastic. It's not a resin, nor is it some restic or plastic resin hybrid. It's just PVC plastic.

Secondly, yes, PP plastic is quite subpar when compared to GWs. I used to excuse that by PP being a smaller company not able to afford the big fancy machines that GW uses, but then Malifaux started making plastic figs of GWs level. PP really needs to upgrade their plastic technology and stop outsourcing it to china.

Zero problems with PPs metal though.

While they may be plastic, they are produced using the same process as "restic" etc. (also known as rapid injection molding) within a rubber mold. The reason they don't go to plastic sprues ala wyrd is because plastic injection molding still can't capture that level of detail. Yes, Wyrds models are amazing, but they don't have the same level of detail as privateer minis (and when I mean level of detail, I'm referring to undercuts and non-planar details).

Otherwise, yeah, the plastic that they use is just terrible, ive yet to find a glue that actually gets a decent hold on it.

I'm an enormous fan of PP's rules, universe and art, but the state of their actual models is just... sigh.

I picked up the Clockwork Angels and Aurora from the most recently released Convergence of Cyriss faction, and the metal models are beautiful, but amazingly fiddly. The plastic kits, however... frankly, the pictures of the Convergence starter box, with some of the most obnoxious mold lines I have seen in years, has put me almost completely off of the faction.

Beyond the issues of quality control, there is the issue of shortcuts: take a look in the new release threads about the Cephalyx. This is the new, hot and interesting stuff, and the promo shots clearly show the new heavy kit has one body pose;



Seriously, the value of having a single kit for the heavy 'Jacks (Monstrosities in this case) is clear, but the compromises seem too extreme. This carries over to infantry kits, where there is very limited poses, and frequently repeated poses.

Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.

Well i guess im just going to throw in my .02$

I honestly really prefer the PP Plastics to GW Plastics. Even if they do share alot of the troublesome property's that you find in resin models. Im not sure what it is exactly, they have absolutely no superior qualitys compared to GW but i just tend to like them a little more. (Possibly just bias because i prefer WM/H rules over 40k/fantasy)
I really wish that PP models had a little more Variety to the options they come with (BITZ) because I find most my Warmahordes models are about half green-stuff. The plastic they use does have a good amount of flaws in detail retention, but its not really something I personally mind. They are a new company and have a lot of time to refine their ways of making minis.

In the Pewter department, I would have to say PP takes the cake. GW had really big flaws in their metal models (Not to say PP doesn't have any) But I honestly have no real complaints on the PP metal models. I find the sculpts to be phenomenal, and have a GREAT attention to details.

Either way they are to great company's with some beautiful work. -Papa


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
I'm an enormous fan of PP's rules, universe and art, but the state of their actual models is just... sigh.

I picked up the Clockwork Angels and Aurora from the most recently released Convergence of Cyriss faction, and the metal models are beautiful, but amazingly fiddly. The plastic kits, however... frankly, the pictures of the Convergence starter box, with some of the most obnoxious mold lines I have seen in years, has put me almost completely off of the faction.

Beyond the issues of quality control, there is the issue of shortcuts: take a look in the new release threads about the Cephalyx. This is the new, hot and interesting stuff, and the promo shots clearly show the new heavy kit has one body pose;

Spoiler:

Seriously, the value of having a single kit for the heavy 'Jacks (Monstrosities in this case) is clear, but the compromises seem too extreme. This carries over to infantry kits, where there is very limited poses, and frequently repeated poses.

Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.

Those models are a disaster! oh my dear lord that is terrible! Its a really cool sculpt but.... ouch... that looks like you have three identical models.

Buzzsaw wrote:Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.

A negligible amount, if any. Every new player I have met seems to like not being overwhelmed by their initial experience. There's a reason GW doesn't offer full customization figures in their starter sets and Privateer doesn't in most of their line.

Do I like the lack of customization? No. Do I think it costs them sales? Not really. I don't think my preferences are indicative of the preferences of the average customer.

That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.

 frozenwastes wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.

A negligible amount, if any. Every new player I have met seems to like not being overwhelmed by their initial experience. There's a reason GW doesn't offer full customization figures in their starter sets and Privateer doesn't in most of their line.

Do I like the lack of customization? No. Do I think it costs them sales? Not really. I don't think my preferences are indicative of the preferences of the average customer.

That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.

I am one. Over the years I have bought Cryxx, Khador and the religiously looking ones. For hoardes I have bought Everblight. Everytime I have returned virtually all the models because frankly outside of one or two models per faction the majority of the range is sub-par and I just cannot bring myself to build them let alone paint them. So, I am one of those where the quality of the models is a big factor on whether or not I play a game. I am fairly sure I am not a minority with that opinion.

 frozenwastes wrote:
That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.

Because organic models and ball joints don't mix, unless you want to do a lot of green stuff work to fix the ugly joint. In which case, why aren't you just reposing it yourself?

There are clearly enough mechanical components (arm bands, collars etc.) to have made ball joints work, had they cared to.

 plastictrees wrote:
There are clearly enough mechanical components (arm bands, collars etc.) to have made ball joints work, had they cared to.

With that much exposed skin and musculature? It'd read as wrong unless you replaced the entire shoulder joint with a warjack-style ball and socket (which would just look weird) or (for the head) put a massive collar on it which completely hides the neck and most of the shoulders. If you're going to do muscles though, it pays to do them right and not end up with weird bicep bulges on a straight arm (as an example).

chaos0xomega wrote:
While they may be plastic, they are produced using the same process as "restic" etc. (also known as rapid injection molding) within a rubber mold. The reason they don't go to plastic sprues ala wyrd is because plastic injection molding still can't capture that level of detail. Yes, Wyrds models are amazing, but they don't have the same level of detail as privateer minis (and when I mean level of detail, I'm referring to undercuts and non-planar details)

PP plastics are produced on the same injection molding machines with steel tools as polystyrene, not rubber molds.

When the PVC is done being injected into the mold and the tool opens, it is manually pulled out of the tool by a worker (not by ejector pins like polystyrene sprues are).

Since the PVC is still hot and soft it flexes when pulled out of the mold, then it is dunked into a trough of cold water to harden. That's one of the reasons PVC models are deformed so much when you get them. The factory doesn't take the time to straighten out the bent parts.

 Papaskittels wrote:
In the Pewter department, I would have to say PP takes the cake. GW had really big flaws in their metal models (Not to say PP doesn't have any) But I honestly have no real complaints on the PP metal models. I find the sculpts to be phenomenal, and have a GREAT attention to details.

What you are talking about are 2 different things. One is sculpting quality, the other is casting quality. When it comes to casting quality PP and GW (and most other companies) are pretty much on par with each other (and at both companies we did quality checking and comparison of other companies models).

The biggest difference between the two is one company is very professional and has organized, standardized procedures and SOP's that are easy to follow by anyone, produce consistent results, make it easy to train new staff and get very efficient results. There is transparency in the departments since you have to be able to function efficiently even when a manager is out sick or on vacation.

The other company has none of that. They have no concept of standardization or streamlining and simplifying procedures. If an issue occurs they have no organized method of trouble-shooting since there is no standardization in manufacturing so any fixes get added on top of other procedures. That combined with no written SOP's for anything makes it difficult for them to train new staff and also secures the managers' positions since no one else knows how to do their job. There is no transparency in any of their departments.

I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm.

Because Matt doesn't like ball joints. .

 mechanicalhorizon wrote:
Because Matt doesn't like ball joints.

That's not entirely fair. There's a ton of ball joints on the various Warjacks. It's just the Beasts (and now Monstrosities, of course) that don't use them.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 mechanicalhorizon wrote:
Because Matt doesn't like ball joints.

That's not entirely fair. There's a ton of ball joints on the various Warjacks. It's just the Beasts (and now Monstrosities, of course) that don't use them.

That's just what Ron had told me. Several times over the years when a model was being made we would run into various issues, how the joints work was one of them, but in true PP fashion nothing is ever consistent.

One time I had suggested we use ball joints, since we had before, but Ron said that Matt didn't like ball joints so we went with something else.

The problem with the Ceph Monstrosities is that the weapon arms change at the forearms, leaving them all in the same pose. I like how the Circle Warpwolves go together where the arms are swapped at the shoulders, which lets the different arms hold at different angles, plus the heads that look in different directions. The less exaggerated poses on the other factions also helps compared to the Monstrosities. If they're going to make single pose models that you take more than one of, they Need to stop giving them such exaggerated dynamics poses.

 frozenwastes wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.

A negligible amount, if any. Every new player I have met seems to like not being overwhelmed by their initial experience. There's a reason GW doesn't offer full customization figures in their starter sets and Privateer doesn't in most of their line.

Do I like the lack of customization? No. Do I think it costs them sales? Not really. I don't think my preferences are indicative of the preferences of the average customer.

That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.

You'll forgive me if I have certain doubts. Also, it's not a matter of customization per se that I am referring to, but simply a matter of quality in casting and sculpting.

I have starter armies for 4 factions and want to buy starters for 2 more (Retribution and Convergence). I'm not buying them specifically because of quality issues that have been widely reported, even though these are factions that I like in a system that I like.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.

A negligible amount, if any. Every new player I have met seems to like not being overwhelmed by their initial experience. There's a reason GW doesn't offer full customization figures in their starter sets and Privateer doesn't in most of their line.

Do I like the lack of customization? No. Do I think it costs them sales? Not really. I don't think my preferences are indicative of the preferences of the average customer.

That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.

You'll forgive me if I have certain doubts. Also, it's not a matter of customization per se that I am referring to, but simply a matter of quality in casting and sculpting.

I have starter armies for 4 factions and want to buy starters for 2 more (Retribution and Convergence). I'm not buying them specifically because of quality issues that have been widely reported, even though these are factions that I like in a system that I like.

I agree - I've been waiting for years now to really start buying into PP and get to collecting various factions that I fancy. First I held off due to my distaste for metal. Now, after getting a handful of their plastics (and seeing the awful, awful Convergence pics that showed that absolutely no improvement had been made) I wait for them to get their act together and up the quality of their plastics.

They advertised a few months ago for a position that largely seemed to be "get our plastics in order" and that position has been filled now. So hopefully they got someone good who can turn this ship around.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.

Because organic models and ball joints don't mix, unless you want to do a lot of green stuff work to fix the ugly joint. In which case, why aren't you just reposing it yourself?

You cheat and have armour plates or clothing that goes right up to the ball joint and the ball joint has muscle detail that goes right around the ball.

Schmapdi wrote:
They advertised a few months ago for a position that largely seemed to be "get our plastics in order" and that position has been filled now. So hopefully they got someone good who can turn this ship around.

That wasn't the correct wording, they were looking for someone to get their resin casting sorted. It's a real mess. PP doesn't do any of their proper plastics in-house, they are all made in China. There wouldn't be a reason to hire someone full-time for plastics since they have so little control over the manufacturing of them. PP has a guy in the studio who's sole job it is to cut/repair the parts and prepare them for molding so they can be sent to China, but then China makes even more alterations to those parts to be able to make them in plastic.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
You'll forgive me if I have certain doubts. Also, it's not a matter of customization per se that I am referring to, but simply a matter of quality in casting and sculpting.

I have starter armies for 4 factions and want to buy starters for 2 more (Retribution and Convergence). I'm not buying them specifically because of quality issues that have been widely reported, even though these are factions that I like in a system that I like.

For new people, I think the issue might be one of not knowing any better. Where I am, there's not a lot of GW gaming going on outside of the GW store. The local stores do a lot of flames of war, WM/H, Infinity, Dystopian Wars, etc., and if you're a new customer there the odds are if you go with PP's stuff you're not necessarily going to have the experience with the clean injection casting of GW's kits. Or of Perry historicals, or Wyrd's plastic or any other really well produced styrene kit. They're going to open their starter, clean the mould lines, build the things and hopefully prime and paint them. And barring some bent weapons, be generally happy.

And let's be honest what PVC is. It's a means of reducing the cost per unit for the manufacturer. It's about PP's bottom line and not anything else. They're not offering any of the actual advantages of plastic that they could be. It's all about cost controls and where possible, reduced prices.

By this point if anyone thought I was some sort of PP fanboy in this thread, they probably should no longer think so. Basically I've said that PP can sell their customers plastic because their customers might not know any better and that it's all about PP's bottom line and not providing a better product per se.

There's two possible quality issues with PP's plastic.

1) It needs extra work to make it good. You have to use boiling water to straighten parts and the extra time spent on mould lines can be annoying, but if you're willing to fight through it, it'll turn out fine.

2) Even with extra work, it's no good. The removal of flash means you damage detail and have to repair it with putty. Moulds have slipped and the part is horribly miscast. That sort of thing.

Issue 1) is a given with PP's plastic, but issue 2) might be a bit more rare. And to be fair to PP, they'll send you a replacement in the mail.

People in this thread are talking like every time they buy something it has an issue that would be type 2) above. I really think it's a matter of their stuff being annoying and taking extra work rather than being unworkable. It's no glowing review for me to say that PP's plastics are going to annoy you and take extra work, but it's not as bad as people are making it out to be.

From a model kit perspective, I think I'd rate PP's plastic stuff at like a 5.5 (or maybe 6) out of 10. And their metals at 8-9.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Basically I've said that PP can sell their customers plastic because their customers might not know any better and that it's all about PP's bottom line and not providing a better product per se.

Or their target customers are those that honestly couldn't care less about conversions and making each of their toy soldiers a wonderful and unique snow flake by repositioning the arm pointing up instead of pointing down...

Not every game has to cater to every taste and for everyone that is looking for a miniature line that emphasizes that aspect of the hobby, then maybe PP isn't the company for you?

GW beats PP hands down but....

I'm disappointed with the Hive Crone kit. It really lacks that loving detail. I was comparing the head recess to that on the Carnifex - the Carnifex is all grungy and organic, the Crone is actually pretty smooth, symmetrical and rather mechanical looking. Might be the fact it was sketched out in CAD, might be that it was rushed out.

It's fine, fits together well (as long as you fill the gaps around the little side funnels), but it definitely lacks TLC compared to some of the earlier models.

PhantomViper wrote:

Or their target customers are those that honestly couldn't care less about conversions and making each of their toy soldiers a wonderful and unique snow flake by repositioning the arm pointing up instead of pointing down...

Not every game has to cater to every taste and for everyone that is looking for a miniature line that emphasizes that aspect of the hobby, then maybe PP isn't the company for you?

I actually think converting models through re-positioning manually rather than assembling a kit made to be that way is at the core of the modelling side of the hobby. It takes far more skill to take a metal model and massively convert it to change the pose than it does to just build a plastic kit in one of many possible poses.

Do you really think the bent & distorted weapons and terrible mould lines are suddenly a good thing just because some of the customers don't care about painting? Really? Cause PP seems to care about painting and modelling. Enough that they sell a complete line of hobby and paint products and talk about painting in every one of their publications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
GW beats PP hands down but....

I'm disappointed with the Hive Crone kit. It really lacks that loving detail. I was comparing the head recess to that on the Carnifex - the Carnifex is all grungy and organic, the Crone is actually pretty smooth, symmetrical and rather mechanical looking. Might be the fact it was sketched out in CAD, might be that it was rushed out.

It's fine, fits together well (as long as you fill the gaps around the little side funnels), but it definitely lacks TLC compared to some of the earlier models.

In the last few GW financial reports Kirby continued to promise the shareholders how closely they'd protect their margins and cut costs.

I would not be surprised at all if GW tries to get each kit done with less and less studio hours in order to save money and their quality continues to decline. Their art direction has really accelerated into being very derivative and I could see them expecting their design staff to get more projects finished in the same amount of time to save on the design cost for each project.

 frozenwastes wrote:

I actually think converting models through re-positioning manually rather than assembling a kit made to be that way is at the core of the modelling side of the hobby. It takes far more skill to take a metal model and massively convert it to change the pose than it does to just build a plastic kit in one of many possible poses.

And I completely agree with you, but to those people, kit pose ability is redundant because they will just tear the model apart to recreate it the way that they have envisioned it.

But that isn't what people here are complaining about, they are complaining about pose repetition in the kits, as if the variance that multi-pose kits allow makes any sort of difference when you look at a table from 3 feet away...

 frozenwastes wrote:

Do you really think the bent & distorted weapons and terrible mould lines are suddenly a good thing just because some of the customers don't care about painting? Really? Cause PP seems to care about painting and modelling. Enough that they sell a complete line of hobby and paint products and talk about painting in every one of their publications.

Nope, and I never said that. I never said that customers didn't care about painting, I said they didn't care about modelling! But mould lines can be cleaned and bent weapons can be fixed with the warm water treatment. It really isn't that big of a deal.

But despite not being that big of a deal to clean up, I also don't like PP's plastics and much prefer their metal models. Unfortunately for costs or profitability reasons PP seems unable or unwilling to continue to produce everything in metal, but they've also stated that they are aware of the problems that are affecting the plastic models and will take steps to correct them and so far I've had 0 reasons to doubt their statements.

And lets get real here, most if not all of the reported problems are only happening with the Cyriss models for some reason, I've bought plastic models for all of my 4 factions (Cygnar, Legion, Cryx and Cyriss), and the only ones where I've experienced any type of heavy mould lines were the Cyriss models, all the other ones only required minimal cleaning (and the straitening of bent spears and halberds).

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
It is worth noting that the plastic used by PP is apparently almost exactly the same stuff used for Mantic's "restic" or resin plastic material.

Some sort of PVC formulation. Not as good as a nice sprue in any way.

Harder to clean up, harder to glue, sometimes warps, generally more expensive.

And both of those are the same sort as Reaper uses for Bones. And just barely removed from the type of plastic used to make polymer clays like FIMO and Sculpey. All of them glue up fine using PVC cement.

I have PP PVC models, Mantic "restic", and Bones. Bones is different and considerably more rubbery in my experience.

Yes, it is more flexible, however not because it is a different type of plastic. The formulation of the PVC is different. Bones uses more/different types of plasticizers but they are all just PVC. With little or no plasticizer added in, PVC is quite hard and even a bit brittle. You can keep adding plasticizers till it is like a wet noodle though (even more than that as if memory serves Plastisol inks are PVC and are liquid till heat treated).

 mechanicalhorizon wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
While they may be plastic, they are produced using the same process as "restic" etc. (also known as rapid injection molding) within a rubber mold. The reason they don't go to plastic sprues ala wyrd is because plastic injection molding still can't capture that level of detail. Yes, Wyrds models are amazing, but they don't have the same level of detail as privateer minis (and when I mean level of detail, I'm referring to undercuts and non-planar details)

PP plastics are produced on the same injection molding machines with steel tools as polystyrene, not rubber molds.

When the PVC is done being injected into the mold and the tool opens, it is manually pulled out of the tool by a worker (not by ejector pins like polystyrene sprues are).

Since the PVC is still hot and soft it flexes when pulled out of the mold, then it is dunked into a trough of cold water to harden. That's one of the reasons PVC models are deformed so much when you get them. The factory doesn't take the time to straighten out the bent parts.

I'm reasonably certain this isn't the case, since (IIRC) I was told by PP employees on their forums some time ago that they are produced using a 'rapid injection molding' process that shoots the PVC into specially designed silicone molds.

Check out mechanicalhirizons Deviant Art page...I think he/she might have more insight than you.

 Papaskittels wrote:
Well i guess im just going to throw in my .02$

I honestly really prefer the PP Plastics to GW Plastics. Even if they do share alot of the troublesome property's that you find in resin models. Im not sure what it is exactly, they have absolutely no superior qualitys compared to GW but i just tend to like them a little more. (Possibly just bias because i prefer WM/H rules over 40k/fantasy)
I really wish that PP models had a little more Variety to the options they come with (BITZ) because I find most my Warmahordes models are about half green-stuff. The plastic they use does have a good amount of flaws in detail retention, but its not really something I personally mind. They are a new company and have a lot of time to refine their ways of making minis.

In the Pewter department, I would have to say PP takes the cake. GW had really big flaws in their metal models (Not to say PP doesn't have any) But I honestly have no real complaints on the PP metal models. I find the sculpts to be phenomenal, and have a GREAT attention to details.

Either way they are to great company's with some beautiful work. -Papa
ou have three identical models.

Well, you're obviously alone here with your opinion. For instance, look at the current Cyriss model line. Its by far not the same standard as that of GW.