Quality of Models/Sprues: GW vs. PP

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**chaos0xomega**

plastictrees wrote:
Check out mechanicalhirizons Deviant Art page...I think he/she might have more insight than you.

Is there something specific I'm looking for? I see pictures of his sculpts for Privateer, and some basic explanations of how to do RTV silicone casting, nothing about steel...

**mechanicalhorizon**

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm reasonably certain this isn't the case, since (IIRC) I was told by PP employees on their forums some time ago that they are produced using a 'rapid injection molding' process that shoots the PVC into specially designed silicone molds.

Whomever told you that was mistaken.

The pressure used to inject the plastic into the tools is far too high for rubber molds. I was the only person at PP with any real "hands on" experience with plastic injection molding (learned it when I worked for GW) I also know how it's done because Ron went to China several times and took pictures and videos of their process.

They are made with steel tools. The parts can be pulled out of the tool, even with undercuts, because the PVC is still soft after being injected into the tool so it will flex when pulled out of the tool.

Unfortunately that's also what causes the majority of the warped parts so as long as they stick with PVC you are stuck with warped parts.

chaos0xomega, there is a HUGE amount of misinformation out there when it comes to moldmaking and casting techniques. Most of what you'll find by Googling aren't techniques used in large scale manufacturing, like using LEGO's as mold boxes, how to sprue a model etc, etc.

There is a wealth of knowledge that you won't find online and that you'll only ever learn by working for a company like GW, who spent decades perfecting and testing materials and processes. When we first moved to Memphis, TN I had a whole year jsut to test out and try new methods, materials and basically just to experiment to see what really works VS what people think works.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Is there something specific I'm looking for? I see pictures of his sculpts for Privateer, and some basic explanations of how to do RTV silicone casting, nothing about steel...

I was hired at PP as a sculptor, but I did have a life before PP. The reason I speak more about RTV moldmaking and resin casting is because that's what people keep asking me about since it's easy to learn, the materials are inexpensive and you can set it up on your kitchen table. Plastic injection molding, not so much.

**Platuan4th**

wuestenfux wrote:

Well, you're obviously alone here with your opinion.

He's not, but those of us that like, prefer, or don't mind them tend not to speak up about it much.

**frozenwastes**

PhantomViper wrote:But that isn't what people here are complaining about, they are complaining about pose repetition in the kits, as if the variance that multi-pose kits allow makes any sort of difference when you look at a table from 3 feet away...

It might for the cephalyx monstrosities. They're pretty samey, even at a distance. I plan on cutting and reposing mine, but I could see how people who are used to GW type kits where you can do that without any real work would find the task daunting and the idea of three nearly identical models disappointing.

Unfortunately for costs or profitability reasons PP seems unable or unwilling to continue to produce everything in metal, but they've also stated that they are aware of the problems that are affecting the plastic models and will take steps to correct them and so far I've had 0 reasons to doubt their statements.

I've dealt with Chinese manufacturers before and while they can be hard to deal with some times, they certainly do respond well when you start dragging your feet on payment and talking about how batches delivered were defective and will need to be returned without being paid for and the like.

And lets get real here, most if not all of the reported problems are only happening with the Cyriss models for some reason, I've bought plastic models for all of my 4 factions (Cygnar, Legion, Cryx and Cyriss), and the only ones where I've experienced any type of heavy mould lines were the Cyriss models, all the other ones only required minimal cleaning (and the straitening of bent spears and halberds).

And even then, it's a mixed bag. I'm doing another batch of Cyriss for a customer and while the first batch was from the stuff sold at Lock and Load and was totally fine, this stuff has been purchased through regular store distribution.

And it's still fine. A bit of hot water straightening and mould line removal with a knife and file and everything was good.

I wonder if the people who are having issues are approaching it as if it's styrene and when one edge of the knife scrape doesn't take the mould line off, they give up and go on the internet to complain?

Though I recognize that there have been legitimate cases of problems. Like this one:

If you get something like that, head over to PP's website and report a missing parts request for a miscast.

**plastictrees**

Uh, no. I've been converting models since '91 (with a swiss army knife, in a snowstorm) and PPs plastic is the biggest pain in the ass I've ever encountered.

My question ultimately is, why are they doing plastics?
The answer seems to be, it's cheaper for PP. Which is fine. It could just be so much more.

**frozenwastes**

It's 100% about cost control for PP. The switch to plastic was begun done during the volatility in the tin market around 2008-2009.

When the price of the metal that makes up most of your products starts doing this:

Spoiler:

You don't have a lot of options in terms of price control.

PP's switch to plastics is all about their own margins. At least with PP though, if a given kit is switched to plastic, the price is dropped. Like Bane Thralls going from $80 to $50. And cavalry kits being released at $60 while the metal and resin ones are $100 or so.

EDIT: Spoiler tags

**BobtheInquisitor**

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the warjacks from the game Grind are compatible with Warmachine? I ask because Grind has 10 warjacks, and currently costs $14.99 with free shipping on Amazon. At 10 models for $14.99, I think a lot of PVC's faults are forgivable.

frozenwastes wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote:
You'll forgive me if I have certain doubts. Also, it's not a matter of customization per se that I am referring to, but simply a matter of quality in casting and sculpting.

I have starter armies for 4 factions and want to buy starters for 2 more (Retribution and Convergence). I'm not buying them specifically because of quality issues that have been widely reported, even though these are factions that I like in a system that I like.

For new people, I think the issue might be one of not knowing any better. Where I am, there's not a lot of GW gaming going on outside of the GW store. The local stores do a lot of flames of war, WM/H, Infinity, Dystopian Wars, etc., and if you're a new customer there the odds are if you go with PP's stuff you're not necessarily going to have the experience with the clean injection casting of GW's kits. Or of Perry historicals, or Wyrd's plastic or any other really well produced styrene kit. They're going to open their starter, clean the mould lines, build the things and hopefully prime and paint them. And barring some bent weapons, be generally happy.

And let's be honest what PVC is. It's a means of reducing the cost per unit for the manufacturer. It's about PP's bottom line and not anything else. They're not offering any of the actual advantages of plastic that they could be. It's all about cost controls and where possible, reduced prices.

By this point if anyone thought I was some sort of PP fanboy in this thread, they probably should no longer think so. Basically I've said that PP can sell their customers plastic because their customers might not know any better and that it's all about PP's bottom line and not providing a better product per se.

There's two possible quality issues with PP's plastic.

1) It needs extra work to make it good. You have to use boiling water to straighten parts and the extra time spent on mould lines can be annoying, but if you're willing to fight through it, it'll turn out fine.

2) Even with extra work, it's no good. The removal of flash means you damage detail and have to repair it with putty. Moulds have slipped and the part is horribly miscast. That sort of thing.

Issue 1) is a given with PP's plastic, but issue 2) might be a bit more rare. And to be fair to PP, they'll send you a replacement in the mail.

People in this thread are talking like every time they buy something it has an issue that would be type 2) above. I really think it's a matter of their stuff being annoying and taking extra work rather than being unworkable. It's no glowing review for me to say that PP's plastics are going to annoy you and take extra work, but it's not as bad as people are making it out to be.

From a model kit perspective, I think I'd rate PP's plastic stuff at like a 5.5 (or maybe 6) out of 10. And their metals at 8-9.

I have had problems with a full half of the PP plastic kits I've bought. And when I contacted them, it took about 2 months in each case to get the issue resolved. It was pretty ridiculous.

**Laughing Man**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the warjacks from the game Grind are compatible with Warmachine? I ask because Grind has 10 warjacks, and currently costs $14.99 with free shipping on Amazon. At 10 models for $14.99, I think a lot of PVC's faults are forgivable.

Sort of? You could make some decent Cygnar stand-ins with that, along with a potential Marauder IIRC. The weapon loadouts aren't precisely ideal for direct conversion to Warmachine, but with a little bit of creativity and a lot of conversion work you could pull something off.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Well, then I guess they're great for someone like me who likes to have a lot of interesting models to assemble and paint, but who never plays the games. I'll just assume I can use them in Deadzone or Warpath for when I get to play those games in 10 years or so.

**Laughing Man**

Oh, and a last note about Grind: The Khador lights are pretty much useless for Warmachine (although they make great models for IKRPG steamjacks), as Khador doesn't actually have light warjacks.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Well, I guess $15 for 10 warjack-sized robot models isn't as good of a deal as I thought.

**Laughing Man**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Well, I guess $15 for 10 warjack-sized robot models isn't as good of a deal as I thought.

Still a pretty good deal, mind you. It's just that only seven are useful outside of IKRPG (which is, incidentally, a pretty neat system), and that they'll need a bit of work to get the right weapons on them. The chassis are all pretty much taken verbatim from Khador heavies, and the Cygnar Ironclad and Lancer chassis. Mind you, the weapons are gradually becoming more and more appropriate over time, as we have spoilers of a Khadoran heavy wielding a hammer in the new Vengeance book due out in March.

But yeah, 7 warjacks for $15 is still a pretty damn good deal.

**wuestenfux**

Laughing Man wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Well, I guess $15 for 10 warjack-sized robot models isn't as good of a deal as I thought.

Still a pretty good deal, mind you. It's just that only seven are useful outside of IKRPG (which is, incidentally, a pretty neat system), and that they'll need a bit of work to get the right weapons on them. The chassis are all pretty much taken verbatim from Khador heavies, and the Cygnar Ironclad and Lancer chassis. Mind you, the weapons are gradually becoming more and more appropriate over time, as we have spoilers of a Khadoran heavy wielding a hammer in the new Vengeance book due out in March.

But yeah, 7 warjacks for $15 is still a pretty damn good deal.

In fact, its a very good deal. With some work, you could make them PP standard.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Would PDC's heavy weapons sprue provide useful parts?

**AduroT**

I think the Grind jacks are smaller than the standard as well, but not a lot. Talk to locals and see if you can get extra Warjack arms off of them to convert the Grind ones to the right weapon loadouts.

**frozenwastes**

The grind jacks are the same size. They're just made of a boardgame plastic that's a bit softer than their grey PVC stuff.

I've never ahd anyone notice that my grind jacks were from grind. I put a bit of extra work into mould line removal and once they were painted, no one has been able to notice.

**gunslingerpro**

Grind jacks alsomake great scenery (statues or pieces for a warjack workshop) and great for bases. A solid buy (and I may have to pick up a few myself...)

**mechanicalhorizon**

The same master models were used for the Cygnar and Khador models in Grind and Warmachine. There were a few modifications made to them due to the different manufacturing process, but basically they are the same.

You shouldn't have any issues with using Grind Jacks in Warmachine, and the extra Warjack arm options should fit on the Grind jacks just fine.

**Wayshuba**

AduroT wrote:
First off, you do not have resin Reductors, you have plastic Reductors. It's a different kind of plastic than what GW uses yes, but it's still just plastic. It's not a resin, nor is it some restic or plastic resin hybrid. It's just PVC plastic.

Secondly, yes, PP plastic is quite subpar when compared to GWs. I used to excuse that by PP being a smaller company not able to afford the big fancy machines that GW uses, but then Malifaux started making plastic figs of GWs level. PP really needs to upgrade their plastic technology and stop outsourcing it to china.

Zero problems with PPs metal though.

I just wanted to jump in with one thing here. It is not because PP makes them in China. Malifaux plastics are made there. So are DreamForge plastics which make all model kits on the market, including GW's look inferior, yet they are made in China. PPs issue is they, like GW, have become a bit to focused on profit of individual kits and therefore are going the route of the cheapest possible in cost for the most expensive in price. A losing proposition all around.

**master of ordinance**

For all the bashing they get, GW's models are superior. They have a better quality, if a stupidly cartoonish style.

PP's plastics are not as good. That said, they do come off the sprues, and for models such as Jacks, they are good.

**wuestenfux**

Today, I got a box of Eradicators for my Cyriss faction. All parts are off sprue. What a mess. I think I'll sell the box on ebay asap.
The same goes with the Reductors. The worst looking models I've seen. I have 10 of them and will sell them at ebay too.
My Cyriss army will stay vector heavy with some optifex units and solos.

**kronk**

Kroothawk wrote:
If it can't be glued with plastic cement, it isn't plastic for me. PP stuff can't be glued with plastic cement.

That's one way of looking at it. Plastic cement is formulated for polystyrene. It won't work on other plastics, including polypropylene, polyethylene, or PVC.

You have to get a PVC specific cement for PVC. Or superglue.

That doesn't mean these aren't plastic, but that's a debate for another thread.

As for PP vs GW, I don't like the aesthetics of PP stuff. I do like that gargantuan mountain troll thingy. But otherwise, no thanks. I don't care how good the game is.

**scarletsquig**

kronk wrote:

You have to get a PVC specific cement for PVC.

Yes, that wonderful industrial solvent stuff that comes in gallon tins where you have to pry the lid off with a knife.

**kronk**

Remember to cut away from yourself with the knife! Safety first!

**Kaptajn Congoboy**

wuestenfux wrote:
Today, I got a box of Eradicators for my Cyriss faction. All parts are off sprue. What a mess. I think I'll sell the box on ebay asap.
The same goes with the Reductors. The worst looking models I've seen. I have 10 of them and will sell them at ebay too.
My Cyriss army will stay vector heavy with some optifex units and solos.

Iron Mother Carrier group will be your friend then. But I dunno. It took me a grand total of 5 minutes to sort my two Reciprocator sets (same baseline as the Eradicators) before assembly, and the Reductors took maybe half that. It takes me more time to get my airbrush tools out and ready for use. But I am sure you can spend those 7,5 minutes in a more useful manner, such as taking pictures of the boxes and setting up an ebay sale

**Platuan4th**

wuestenfux wrote:
All parts are off sprue.

That's a feature, not a bug. No sprues means less wasted plastic and less waste laying around your house.

**Sarigar**

For myself, I built a 35pt Legion army. It is still only 80% painted and I'm just not motivated at all to finish them. I kept thinking the details are getting muddled on the model and then I compared my Nyss Warriors to my Dark Eldar Scourges. The Nyss' detail was akin to something GW produced in the early 90's.

While I haven't abadoned learning how to play Hordes, the models are very uninspiring for me to want to finish painting.

**RoninXiC**

Well... the Nyss Swordsmen ARE probably the worst looking unit/model in Warmahorde. They are atrocious.

**wuestenfux**

RoninXiC wrote:
Well... the Nyss Swordsmen ARE probably the worst looking unit/model in Warmahorde. They are atrocious.

As already said, I play Cyriss and the Reductors are one of the worst models I've ever seen. They should be akin to Necron Warriors.

**PhantomViper**

wuestenfux wrote:
RoninXiC wrote:
Well... the Nyss Swordsmen ARE probably the worst looking unit/model in Warmahorde. They are atrocious.

As already said, I play Cyriss and the Reductors are one of the worst models I've ever seen. They should be akin to Necron Warriors.

They require a fair bit of cleaning, but apart from that I found nothing wrong with mine. What was so bad in yours?