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Oh this one's a classic.

What would you rather take?

4 Lascannon Devastators and a Sarge with Auspex (making one of the Lascannons BS5) - 150 points

OR

a Predator Annihilator with Hunter-Killer Missile? - 150 points

Both units cost the same. Both units are a Heavy Support choice. Both units have one purpose: take out enemy tanks and/or MCs.

What are the pros and cons?


- The Lascannon Devastators have a 360° fire-arc, only blocked by any intervening LoS blocking terrain. The Predator Annihilator can only fire everything at something directly in front of it and otherwise has to sacrifice 1 Lascannon sponson to fire at something to its left or right. It can, however, swivel before firing, and doesnt count as having moved.

- The Lascannon Devs have more potential firepower (3 BS4 S9 AP2 shots +1 BS5 S9 AP2 vs. 2 S9 AP2 + 1TL-S9 AP2 + 1 one-use only S8 AP3 all at BS4)

- The Lascannon Devs can overwatch

- The Predator Annihilator has front AV 13 and is immune to small arms fire. 6th ed means it can no longer be silenced by a glancing hit, so it keeps firing until it gets a pen.

- The Lascannon Devs can be whittled down by small arms fire, plus each Dev who is killed reduces the squad's firepower by 25%.

I used to believe in Dev's religiously but now the Predator seems better to me in today's meta. HYMP Broadside spam is less of an issue (if they get in range your unit will get deleted, unless...*), Riptides aren't as effective against them, Wave Serpent SS alpha strikes are less effective as they're only glancing your front armour on 6's instead of piling on wounds. Hell, there's a host of things that threaten them even in their loneliness that I can't even begin to remember in my tiredness. Also, I can't understate how useful being able to move and fire the Lascannons can be at times.

* You buy more ablative wounds. Basically, if you don't take ablative wounds with your Dev Squad, you're doing it wrong. Every casualty you suffer from your opponent's trash end weapon reserves, like the spare long ranged weapons that feasibly kill 1-2 models (e.g Autocannons, Missile Launchers, Serpent Shields (though far from trash)) will severely reduce your effectiveness.

Losing the Sergeant decreases your accuracy marginally, losing every subsequent member is 25% less firepower. Dwell on that. You need ablative wounds, which the Predator doesn't need.

So to that end, the minimum cost of the Lascannon Devastator Squad is more about 178 points. If you're gunning for multiple copies of units in this role (which you should) then the 2+ Predator route saves you 80~ points by this logic.

Considering this is a similar dilemma to the "Lashavocs or Laspred" issue, I choose the predator. As a CSM player I use preds as long range light AT and I find that LOS is generally a non-issue, I can usually fire all my guns at my target because of the swiveling you mentioned.

So it basically comes down to durability, and tank is the obvious choice in that category.

AV 13 front vehicles are pretty efficient as persistent when armed with long range weapons like lascannons that allows them to keep their front facing the opponent most of the game.

Hmm I guess you guys are right.

I think it is the same discussion regarding 4 Plasma Cannon Devastators vs 1 Vindicator?

The vindie can move AND shoot so it will catch up with the range. S10 has the bonus of insta-killing T4 and T5, and lastly not worrying about 4x overheating is what seals the deal, nevermind the AV13 resilience.

Even if 4 small blasts are better than 1 large blast.

That's not as clear as the Vindicator is effectively AV 11, not 13.

Having experimented with both, I can honestly say my preference is neither, since they never accomplish anything. Both of these units have, in my lists, just wound up getting blown off the table first turn. I suppose I'd go with the devs, since they're probably going to take more enemy firepower to kill. (Barring a few hideous exceptions.)

Well, I'd take the plasma cannons, because as Martel said, the Vindicator is easy to flank, and it also has the crippling problem of only being able to fire, at short range, if it hasn't moved. This means it'll be useless for 1-2 turns as it moves into position, during which time it will probably die if it is a feasible threat.

In addition, with Riptides and Wraithknights in the meta, having 4 AP2 shots is considerably better than 1, even if you're looking at 3's/5's than 2's.

That said, neither are particularly good TAC choices or HS choices in general.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Having experimented with both, I can honestly say my preference is neither, since they never accomplish anything. Both of these units have, in my lists, just wound up getting blown off the table first turn. I suppose I'd go with the devs, since they're probably going to take more enemy firepower to kill. (Barring a few hideous exceptions.)

How are you getting a tri-las pred blown off the table turn 1?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Well, I'd take the plasma cannons, because as Martel said, the Vindicator is easy to flank, and it also has the crippling problem of only being able to fire, at short range, if it hasn't moved. This means it'll be useless for 1-2 turns as it moves into position, during which time it will probably die if it is a feasible threat.

In addition, with Riptides and Wraithknights in the meta, having 4 AP2 shots is considerably better than 1, even if you're looking at 3's/5's than 2's.

That said, neither are particularly good TAC choices or HS choices in general.

Vindicators suck vs MCs which torpedoes it also.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Well, I'd take the plasma cannons, because as Martel said, the Vindicator is easy to flank, and it also has the crippling problem of only being able to fire, at short range, if it hasn't moved. This means it'll be useless for 1-2 turns as it moves into position, during which time it will probably die if it is a feasible threat.

In addition, with Riptides and Wraithknights in the meta, having 4 AP2 shots is considerably better than 1, even if you're looking at 3's/5's than 2's.

That said, neither are particularly good TAC choices or HS choices in general.

Vindicators suck vs MCs which torpedoes it also.

Its more a case of what sucks less to be honest. The Plasma Cannon route is a better last ditch solution.

Devastators need ablative wounds.

Martel732 wrote:
How are you getting a tri-las pred blown off the table turn 1?

Pretty much any AT? Vehicles are crazy fragile, they can easily die in one hit to things most people take in abundance. I'm not sure why tanks dying turn one is a surprise to anyone.

What do people take in abundance that can even penetrate AV 13? What I see is S 6/7 spam. Yeah, bright lances exist, but they are not being spammed.

A lot depends on what my local meta looks like and what army I've actually built.

If I were playing a Space Marine army and this was the debate and I faced off against a good number of medium to heavy tanks/vehicles, I may be utilizing the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics and my 150 point Devastator squad now also has Tank Hunter.

However, if for whatever reason, my army was built around a lot of vehicles (very similar to a 5th edition style build), I may opt for the Predator in an effort to oversaturate my opponent with hard target priority.

There are several other factors that can be added, but those two really stick out for myself.

Predator Annihilator for any Chapter Tactics other than IF.

IF - Las devs.

 Sarigar wrote:
A lot depends on what my local meta looks like and what army I've actually built.

If I were playing a Space Marine army and this was the debate and I faced off against a good number of medium to heavy tanks/vehicles, I may be utilizing the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics and my 150 point Devastator squad now also has Tank Hunter.

However, if for whatever reason, my army was built around a lot of vehicles (very similar to a 5th edition style build), I may opt for the Predator in an effort to oversaturate my opponent with hard target priority.

There are several other factors that can be added, but those two really stick out for myself.

I agree, but all thing being even right now, the tank is better.

Hmm, hadn't thought about the Imperial Fist or Crimson Fist Las Devs. Those are pretty terrifying, and pretty solid, given that you'd usually not want to sacrifice the Grav Cannons on your Centurions for TL-Lascannons.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Predator Annihilator for any Chapter Tactics other than IF.

IF - Las devs.

This!

This is one of those questions that is very meta dependent. If you face lots of S6-7 spamming taudar the AV 13 front looks really nice. If you have a bunch or marine players deep striking melta, or zipping bikes/speeders across the table, the the tank is just a liability.

All things being equal, I like the tank. But it’s a close call.

 Nevelon wrote:
This is one of those questions that is very meta dependent. If you face lots of S6-7 spamming taudar the AV 13 front looks really nice. If you have a bunch or marine players deep striking melta, or zipping bikes/speeders across the table, the the tank is just a liability.

All things being equal, I like the tank. But it’s a close call.

This is a smart man.

Regarding the tank I'm just put off by the ridiculously high cost to replace the Autocannon (which you already get) with the TL-Lascannon. I've often thought of fielding an Autopred with 2 Lascannon sponsons, but thats probably not the ideal way, right?

The Dakkapred is a freakin steal though. I mean AV13 for 75 points is ridiculous.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Regarding the tank I'm just put off by the ridiculously high cost to replace the Autocannon (which you already get) with the TL-Lascannon. I've often thought of fielding an Autopred with 2 Lascannon sponsons, but thats probably not the ideal way, right?

The Dakkapred is a freakin steal though. I mean AV13 for 75 points is ridiculous.

75pts for 2 Str7 AP4 shots is how I look at it. Meh.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Regarding the tank I'm just put off by the ridiculously high cost to replace the Autocannon (which you already get) with the TL-Lascannon. I've often thought of fielding an Autopred with 2 Lascannon sponsons, but thats probably not the ideal way, right?

The Dakkapred is a freakin steal though. I mean AV13 for 75 points is ridiculous.

The auto/las pred was my favorite under the last codex. I got a lot of milage out of that tank. With the price changes in the new book, I'm not so sure. These days 75 points and a HS pick gets you the AC behind AV13. The HBs are extra to make the classic dakka pred. If I'm spending 75 points on fire support, I'll go for a TML speeder. It lacks the armor, but is faster, harder hitting, and gets a jink save. Plus it can squadron, which is something our cheep tanks can't. The full dakka pred is 5 points off a TFC; which one suits your list better?

There is only 5 points difference betwen a TLLC/HB and AC/LC pred. Both have advantages if you are going for one of the hybrids.

With the new, lower, price of the TLLC I'm tempted to use it. It was crazy pricy before, but reasonable now.

25 points to replace the autocannon is still too high, IMO.

 Sir Arun wrote:
25 points to replace the autocannon is still too high, IMO.

I can respect that. It’s not an automatic include, but a lot more viable then the last codex. Nothing like having a weapon upgrade that cost just about the same as a MM attack bike. Want more AV? Upgrade to TLLC or have another fast MM scooting around the table; not a tough call.

AV for AV's sake is rather strange, though. A single lascannon can snipe off an HQ with poor placement or maybe kill an enemy vehicle. A single autocannon couldn't kill a buzz.