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Why? Well, assuming that new customer is picking up a boxed set or a battleforce, codex and rulebook then we're only talking about $10k or less a year in new customer sales. He claims his store has about $150k in revenue which would mean new customer sales are only about 6% of total. Even if it were double that (unlikely) then new customer sales aren't where they need to focus.
GW says "new customers are where its at" The manager buys into it because his livelihood is dependent on it. The reality, based on the numbers we've been told, is that GW is clueless.
You're assuming by new customers, GW is referring to first-time buyers rather than people generally new to GW games. To use Killkrazy's example, that could be anyone within the first 18 months of starting up. That probably is their bread and butter. However, if you take one out of context quote from this GW manager and apply it as an example of overall GW practices, I guess you can form an argument that supports what you already believed, which is that GW is clueless.
A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...
Well. That's problem number 1 right there.
Considering how many people active bash GW regardless of what they do, I can't say I disagree. It would be a huge waste of time.
Yeah, I mean, why on earth would you listen to feedback from your customers and try and adjust your approach?
Never mind that the worst critics were generally your most passionate supporters at one point, and that if you've managed to turn them into such a negative creatures then it should be taken as symptomatic of something being very wrong with how you're interacting with your customer base.
Stick with numbers dude, you've not got a clue about customer relations.
Except there is the problem that not all customers want the same thing. So who to you listen to then? Everyone seems to think their opinion is best and they know how to improve GW, yet fail to understand that they may be in the minority. The echo chamber here on Dakka is not representative of the larger gaming community.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/06 16:03:44
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...
Well. That's problem number 1 right there.
Considering how many people active bash GW regardless of what they do, I can't say I disagree. It would be a huge waste of time.
Yeah, I mean, why on earth would you listen to feedback from your customers and try and adjust your approach?
Never mind that the worst critics were generally your most passionate supporters at one point, and that if you've managed to turn them into such a negative creatures then it should be taken as symptomatic of something being very wrong with how you're interacting with your customer base.
Stick with numbers dude, you've not got a clue about customer relations.
Except there is the problem that not all customers want the same thing. So who to you listen to then? Everyone seems to think their opinion is best and they know how to improve GW, yet fail to understand that they may be in the minority. The echo chamber here on Dakka is not representative of the larger gaming community.
Well, you see, that's not really the point. All feedback is good feedback. Some can be discarded as irrational or illogical, some can be discarded as counter to higher priorities, some of it will be genuinely useful. Additionally, if you keep hearing the same negative thing over and over, you've got a problem. It doesn't matter how impractical it might be, but if you are continually getting hammered for the same thing, then you need to address it. You don't have to be the consumer's bitch and do everything they say, but if you keep hearing "this is too expensive" them there are measures that you can take beyond simply cutting prices.
But you're right, that would all be too hard. Much better not to bother.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/06 16:22:26
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Now I'm no military expert, but don't you typically engage with those you are at war with?
You obviously have never been on the receiving end of one of their cease and desist orders. How DARE we promote their products via our fansite!
As far as I'm aware, I've never heard of them shutting down fansites or forums. Rather it is 3rd party retailers profiting off of their IP. Then again, I don't follow every move GW makes like most here seem to do, so I could be wrong.
Well, you see, that's not really the point. All feedback is good feedback. Some can be discarded as irrational or illogical, some can be discarded as counter to higher priorities, some of it will be genuinely useful. Additionally, if you keep hearing the same negative thing over and over, you've got a problem. It doesn't matter how impractical it might be, but if you are continually getting hammered for the same thing, then you need to address it. You don't have to be the consumer's bitch and do everything they say, but if you keep hearing "this is too expensive" them there are measures that you can take beyond simply cutting prices.
But you're right, that would all be too hard. Much better not to bother.
Go email BMW over and over telling them their cars are too expensive and see where that gets you.
I'm not saying the prices are reasonable, in fact I don't really buy much GW stuff these days, but complaining about it isn't going to change it. Not purchasing it might, if enough people stop.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/06 16:24:46
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
The problem is that rather than maybe listen to feedback, even negative feedback, GW sticks their heads in the sand and pretends that the internet doesn't exist and everything is fine. Couple that with their idea that the world revolves around the GW Store (despite there not being many of them outside the UK) and you have a company that:
A) Thinks it knows best
B) Doesn't want criticism or feedback, just praise
C) Assumes that everyone will do what they say because they ignore alternatives.
Well, you see, that's not really the point. All feedback is good feedback. Some can be discarded as irrational or illogical, some can be discarded as counter to higher priorities, some of it will be genuinely useful. Additionally, if you keep hearing the same negative thing over and over, you've got a problem. It doesn't matter how impractical it might be, but if you are continually getting hammered for the same thing, then you need to address it. You don't have to be the consumer's bitch and do everything they say, but if you keep hearing "this is too expensive" them there are measures that you can take beyond simply cutting prices.
But you're right, that would all be too hard. Much better not to bother.
Go email BMW over and over telling them their cars are too expensive and see where that gets you.
I'm not saying the prices are reasonable, in fact I don't really buy much GW stuff these days, but complaining about it isn't going to change it. Not purchasing it might, if enough people stop.
Well, if it was just me emailing BMW, I doubt I'd get anywhere.
But if a lot of people emailed BMW telling them the same thing, and their revenue and profit were down year on year in double digit percentages, you can bet they'd take action.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/06 16:33:32
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Well, if it was just me emailing BMW, I doubt I'd get anywhere.
But if a lot of people emailed BMW telling them the same thing, and their revenue and profit were down year on year in double digit percentages, you can bet they'd take action.
The problem is, it is not a lot of people emailing GW or giving them feedback. It is a small percentage. Most people just do their thing. Hell, most of my friends that are active in GW don't care that much about what GW is doing as a business. They may not like the high prices, but they are pretty casual players so a few kits a year isn't seen as that big of a deal.
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
I can also make the reasonable assumption that, unlike your casual friends, the customers who care enough to get upset and complain are also quite possibly ones who spend, or would spend, more than a few kits worth a year.
Minutiae aside, it is simply a terrible idea to be a multimillion pound, global business operating in such a small market and have such an insular attitude and not engage in any real dialogue with you customers. Companies like EA, Microsoft, Apple etc must surely knock GW into a cocked hat in terms of the numbers of people and depths of revulsion they generate in a certain element of the population, yet they still have lines of communication open.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Well, if it was just me emailing BMW, I doubt I'd get anywhere.
But if a lot of people emailed BMW telling them the same thing, and their revenue and profit were down year on year in double digit percentages, you can bet they'd take action.
The problem is, it is not a lot of people emailing GW or giving them feedback. It is a small percentage. Most people just do their thing. Hell, most of my friends that are active in GW don't care that much about what GW is doing as a business. They may not like the high prices, but they are pretty casual players so a few kits a year isn't seen as that big of a deal.
So you state that the Dakka community isn't representative of the of the larger gaming community, but your much smaller gaming circle is? Riiiight...
If "they" read the forums... and "he" reads the forums... then there are a few ideas from his comments that should be encouraged, and he should push!
Bundling the rule book with a boxed set? <------ great idea!
Steam-like sales? <-------- another good idea!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm.... Went looking at the GW manager forum thread again and it looks like a lot of the comments from him are now gone and the original post now reads:
sorry guys too hot
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/06 17:27:26
Now I'm no military expert, but don't you typically engage with those you are at war with?
You obviously have never been on the receiving end of one of their cease and desist orders. How DARE we promote their products via our fansite!
As far as I'm aware, I've never heard of them shutting down fansites or forums. Rather it is 3rd party retailers profiting off of their IP. Then again, I don't follow every move GW makes like most here seem to do, so I could be wrong.
...
Several years ago they issued C&D letters to several fan sites and/or forums, because of their names, if I remember correctly. For example I believe that one was called 40k Online.
azreal13 wrote: You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
This to me is the most damning thing, that they just pretend that if they ignore the negative feedback, it will go away. That smacks of unbelievable arrogance, quite literally dismissing anything other than praise as being little more than noise that can safely be ignored.
Well, if it was just me emailing BMW, I doubt I'd get anywhere.
But if a lot of people emailed BMW telling them the same thing, and their revenue and profit were down year on year in double digit percentages, you can bet they'd take action.
The problem is, it is not a lot of people emailing GW or giving them feedback. It is a small percentage. Most people just do their thing. Hell, most of my friends that are active in GW don't care that much about what GW is doing as a business. They may not like the high prices, but they are pretty casual players so a few kits a year isn't seen as that big of a deal.
So you state that the Dakka community isn't representative of the of the larger gaming community, but your much smaller gaming circle is? Riiiight...
Oh, I was unaware every single member of Dakka had emailed GW to voice their concerns. Complaining here doesn't equal providing GW feedback surprisingly. Hell, even most people on Dakka aren't complaining here. So you have a small percentage of one forum, which could be argued is the most negative toward GW overall, complaining about GW's practices. The others are presumably happily discussing their army lists, posting project logs or completed works, writing articles, etc. In other words, they are happy with their hobby enough that they don't feel the need to complain about it.
It is fairly safe to say that Dakka is not representative of the larger community. Now using my friends is indeed anecdotal, but I was simply providing an opposite viewpoint, which I know does not go over well when it doesn't fit the mold of the disgruntled GW gamer represented here. I never claimed they represent the entire community, but I can say most people don't want to wallow in this negativity and just go places where they can discuss their interests without being labeled an fanboy or a white knight or whatever.
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
azreal13 wrote: You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
I can also make the reasonable assumption that, unlike your casual friends, the customers who care enough to get upset and complain are also quite possibly ones who spend, or would spend, more than a few kits worth a year.
Minutiae aside, it is simply a terrible idea to be a multimillion pound, global business operating in such a small market and have such an insular attitude and not engage in any real dialogue with you customers. Companies like EA, Microsoft, Apple etc must surely knock GW into a cocked hat in terms of the numbers of people and depths of revulsion they generate in a certain element of the population, yet they still have lines of communication open.
Software and hardware companies are different kettles of fish, sure they get hate mail all the time, but they need a line of communication open because of how fast their world changes. How GW on the other hand, like it or not, sell a set of rules and a set of models, that's it. They don't have to hang around Internet forums and Facebook groups trying to read all the valid questions from all the "the game is unbalanced as I lost a game" "I don't like the price of this so I'm going to spend hours of my life moaning about it on the Internet instead of finding something in my price range" etc etc.
For every person that would say "hey this rule does not work for the community" there will be 10000 other moaning about costs. And that overshadows the few that would actually offer them constructive criticism. So it's no wonder they thought it pointless to pay staff to sit there reading through all the crud to fined the comments that are worth wile looking at.
The GW community is to blame for the loss of the social media. Forge world still have a FB group, because the people that comment there are commenting good feedback and asking questions relevant, still you get a few people moaning but not that many so the group still functions. GWFB group did not because it had the opposite. I'm just glad the local GW's still have FB groups open, the guys in the store are more than willing to answer questions if you have any.
Latest Blog Post: 7th edition first thoughts and pictures.
Well, if it was just me emailing BMW, I doubt I'd get anywhere.
But if a lot of people emailed BMW telling them the same thing, and their revenue and profit were down year on year in double digit percentages, you can bet they'd take action.
The problem is, it is not a lot of people emailing GW or giving them feedback. It is a small percentage. Most people just do their thing. Hell, most of my friends that are active in GW don't care that much about what GW is doing as a business. They may not like the high prices, but they are pretty casual players so a few kits a year isn't seen as that big of a deal.
So you state that the Dakka community isn't representative of the of the larger gaming community, but your much smaller gaming circle is? Riiiight...
Oh, I was unaware every single member of Dakka had emailed GW to voice their concerns. Complaining here doesn't equal providing GW feedback surprisingly. Hell, even most people on Dakka aren't complaining here. So you have a small percentage of one forum, which could be argued is the most negative toward GW overall, complaining about GW's practices. The others are presumably happily discussing their army lists, posting project logs or completed works, writing articles, etc. In other words, they are happy with their hobby enough that they don't feel the need to complain about it.
It is fairly safe to say that Dakka is not representative of the larger community. Now using my friends is indeed anecdotal, but I was simply providing an opposite viewpoint, which I know does not go over well when it doesn't fit the mold of the disgruntled GW gamer represented here. I never claimed they represent the entire community, but I can say most people don't want to wallow in this negativity and just go places where they can discuss their interests without being labeled an fanboy or a white knight or whatever.
Seriously dude, you appear to be arguing that a company having an open dialogue with it's fans and using that as a basis to refine and improve it product and practices isn't worth pursuing, then compounding it by somehow trying to argue that a community the size of Dakka (which numbers in the tens of thousands) isn't in any way representative of the wider community?
I'd quit while you're behind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/06 17:39:22
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
As far as I'm aware, I've never heard of them shutting down fansites or forums. Rather it is 3rd party retailers profiting off of their IP. Then again, I don't follow every move GW makes like most here seem to do, so I could be wrong.
Then let me make you aware. Yes, they have. Dark Reign, a site I run now, received one for promoting FFG's 40kRPGs. They got back a note about something in the US called 'Fair Use' (since the main site hosts reviews and fan material). We then did not hear back from them after that. However, my understanding was they then told FFG (this was some time ago) to stop having their employees posting in our forum. Previously Ross Watson and several of the artists and playtesters were frequent posters.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Why? Well, assuming that new customer is picking up a boxed set or a battleforce, codex and rulebook then we're only talking about $10k or less a year in new customer sales. He claims his store has about $150k in revenue which would mean new customer sales are only about 6% of total. Even if it were double that (unlikely) then new customer sales aren't where they need to focus.
GW says "new customers are where its at" The manager buys into it because his livelihood is dependent on it. The reality, based on the numbers we've been told, is that GW is clueless.
You're assuming by new customers, GW is referring to first-time buyers rather than people generally new to GW games. To use Killkrazy's example, that could be anyone within the first 18 months of starting up. That probably is their bread and butter. However, if you take one out of context quote from this GW manager and apply it as an example of overall GW practices, I guess you can form an argument that supports what you already believed, which is that GW is clueless.
When I wrote that I figured that I was making an assumption that "New" was equivalent to "First Purchase". It might very well be a bad assumption, so the question then is to define what a "new" customer is vs a returning one. Is it a time frame as you suggested such as 18 months; is it a dollar amount; maybe it's a number of purchases. In most businesses a new customer is one that makes that first purchase. A returning one is one that makes the second (or so) purchase. The text from the manager didn't actually indicate what definition they use so I went with the standard.
Why the standard?
Well, it's impossible for them to track all purchases for a given individual. After all, a new person might buy that first boxed set in a GW store and, based on the customer conversation the store manager could create a "customer" record and mark them as new. Great. However that customer then goes to a different LHS or even online and buys other stuff. Heck, they could even go back to that original GW and still not be tracked correctly. I know I've bought a few things from a local GW (they were closest to me at the time) and generally paid cash - even for $100+ purchases. The guy never asked for my name and, interestingly, didn't appear to recognize me when I was in. Granted that's just one shop. Obviously his tracking data, if they do this, would be off but it's not necessarily reflective of other GW stores. What does matter though is that neither LHS nor online retailers report WHO bought what back to GW. And that means ALL of the tracking data is skewed.
Because those purchases can't be tied back to the original customer it's impossible for GW to say "New" is anything other than someone buying a box set from their store. But even that has problems. I picked up 3 copies of the 5th ed box and 2 of the DV box; and I am by no means an aberration in this. The first one I bought meant I was a new customer. The others were just filling out a couple armies. Which means they can't say every box set goes to only "New" customers. Quite frankly they can't define the percentage of box sets that go to "New" customers.
In numerous businesses the way to track a "new" vs "returning" customer is either through orders on the main web site, customer loyalty cards or by tracking credit card numbers. I'd hazard a guess that far more people buy from locations *other* than the GW website than do. They don't have anything like a "loyalty" program and given how often credit / debit cards seem to be reissued the latter is difficult. For GW who not only has retail outlets, a website AND sells through 3rd parties they have no reliable means of defining New vs Returning. Then again, we have one more complication. That person who buys part of an army from a friend then goes to a store to pick up a unit to help round out his army. How would you even define them? That first purchase means they are by any reasonable definition a new customer.. but they aren't new to the hobby.
So, because it's impossible to really define a new vs returning vs old and impossible to track them once they are in the hobby then the statement by GW (which we've heard from others) that "new" customers are their bread and butter can't be anything but clueless.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/06 17:47:42
------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect
Well, you see, that's not really the point. All feedback is good feedback. Some can be discarded as irrational or illogical, some can be discarded as counter to higher priorities, some of it will be genuinely useful. Additionally, if you keep hearing the same negative thing over and over, you've got a problem. It doesn't matter how impractical it might be, but if you are continually getting hammered for the same thing, then you need to address it. You don't have to be the consumer's bitch and do everything they say, but if you keep hearing "this is too expensive" them there are measures that you can take beyond simply cutting prices.
But you're right, that would all be too hard. Much better not to bother.
All I have seen in my 23 years in the hobby is complaints that "this is too expensive". Back when we were getting 2 rhinos in a box for $25 I heard that. 13 years ago when the rhino was updated it ran for $25.. Now it's $37.50. So prices have jumped 50%. Sounds like a lot until you actually compare it to everything else we buy.
Back in 2000 Oil was around $25.. Now it's around $97
Gold was in the low 300s.. now it's around 1200..
Wheat 2466 now 5874
Corn 1834 now 4434
You know.. basic cost inputs. I remember shipping being a lot lower back then.. I remember base salaries were lower too. It's all relative.
Point being.. These complaints have been around for a LONG time and it hasn't impacted their bottom line. They probably got tired of the constant negativity on their forums and constantly having to defend themselves. It was a waste of money to fight the trolls. People that offer constructive criticism have the ears of the Reps. Don't think for a second that the reps don't listen and report back.
azreal13 wrote: You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
I can also make the reasonable assumption that, unlike your casual friends, the customers who care enough to get upset and complain are also quite possibly ones who spend, or would spend, more than a few kits worth a year.
Minutiae aside, it is simply a terrible idea to be a multimillion pound, global business operating in such a small market and have such an insular attitude and not engage in any real dialogue with you customers. Companies like EA, Microsoft, Apple etc must surely knock GW into a cocked hat in terms of the numbers of people and depths of revulsion they generate in a certain element of the population, yet they still have lines of communication open.
Software and hardware companies are different kettles of fish, sure they get hate mail all the time, but they need a line of communication open because of how fast their world changes. How GW on the other hand, like it or not, sell a set of rules and a set of models, that's it. They don't have to hang around Internet forums and Facebook groups trying to read all the valid questions from all the "the game is unbalanced as I lost a game" "I don't like the price of this so I'm going to spend hours of my life moaning about it on the Internet instead of finding something in my price range" etc etc.
For every person that would say "hey this rule does not work for the community" there will be 10000 other moaning about costs. And that overshadows the few that would actually offer them constructive criticism. So it's no wonder they thought it pointless to pay staff to sit there reading through all the crud to fined the comments that are worth wile looking at.
The GW community is to blame for the loss of the social media. Forge world still have a FB group, because the people that comment there are commenting good feedback and asking questions relevant, still you get a few people moaning but not that many so the group still functions. GWFB group did not because it had the opposite. I'm just glad the local GW's still have FB groups open, the guys in the store are more than willing to answer questions if you have any.
Right, yeah, it's our fault. Just like it was our fault that Specialist Games were discontinued because we didn't buy enough. I mean, good lord, the battered wife analogy is trite, but seriously man, cmon?
FW still have a FB group because they haven't been bombarded by pissed off customers, yet GW closed theirs because of that reason. I wonder what conclusions we can draw between how the quasi independent sub division is run, how GW's main division is run, and those two sets of circumstances?
Here's a theory, its a little out there, but bear with me, what do you think would happen if GW started to communicate with its customers, acted like it cared, made changes where it could, explained where it was unable to why it couldn't, you know, generally acted like it gave a gak? I reckon within six months, all the huge volume of complaints you (probably correctly) anticipate would come their way would start to drop off, because I guarantee a huge percentage of the 'hate' sent GW's way is in fact just lent up frustration with no outlet, give that frustration a release valve, the problem won't go away, but it will drop to a very manageable level in very little time.
GW would clearly have to be prepared to ride out that initial storm, and they patently aren't willing to do so.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Seriously dude, you appear to be arguing that a company having an open dialogue with it's fans and using that as a basis to refine and improve it product and practices isn't worth pursuing, then compounding it by somehow trying to argue that a community the size of Dakka (which numbers in the tens of thousands) isn't in any way representative of the wider community?
I'd quit while you're behind.
No, I'm not arguing that any company should not have an open dialogue with their fans, I'm saying GW specifically. Assuming you are correct and Dakka does represent the wider community(I'll ignore the fact that is is the same few dozen people railing against GW in these types of threads) then they absolutely should not waste their time. How is some PR dude realistically supposed to address the perceived injustices against a customer base that hold onto grudges from nearly a decade ago? What can they possibly gain from communicating with a group of people that run off anyone remotely associated with the company, even when they aren't even close to being able to address those complaints. Seriously, if the community ever wanted a chance to interact, they would have to wipe the slate clean and start fresh, and too many people are way too bitter for that to happen.
But I will say you are right, I should quit while I'm ahead. It is pointless to discuss this here. I don't have time to argue with Dakka all day. . You know perceptions are skewed when someone like me who is no doubt perceived as a GW apologist, despite the fact I have quit 40k and sold all my GW stuff over the last year, moved on to another game, and only recently have bought a few things to play Kill Team. The difference is that I'm just not as emotionally invested, so the things that get complained about don't bother me as much.
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
Seriously dude, you appear to be arguing that a company having an open dialogue with it's fans and using that as a basis to refine and improve it product and practices isn't worth pursuing, then compounding it by somehow trying to argue that a community the size of Dakka (which numbers in the tens of thousands) isn't in any way representative of the wider community?
Just because Dakka is vocal doesn't mean it represents the community as a whole. There are plenty of other forums out there. In fact, a lot of gamers get turned off by the negativity on the forum and openly mock it.
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Starfarer wrote: But I will say you are right, I should quit while I'm ahead. It is pointless to discuss this here. I don't have time to argue with Dakka all day. . You know perceptions are skewed when someone like me who is no doubt perceived as a GW apologist, despite the fact I have quit 40k and sold all my GW stuff over the last year, moved on to another game, and only recently have bought a few things to play Kill Team. The difference is that I'm just not as emotionally invested, so the things that get complained about don't bother me as much.
Well put.. this is exactly why people leave dakka. There simply isn't any point in arguing when you get shouted down for having a difference of opinion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/06 17:58:53
Seriously dude, you appear to be arguing that a company having an open dialogue with it's fans and using that as a basis to refine and improve it product and practices isn't worth pursuing, then compounding it by somehow trying to argue that a community the size of Dakka (which numbers in the tens of thousands) isn't in any way representative of the wider community?
I'd quit while you're behind.
No, I'm not arguing that any company should not have an open dialogue with their fans, I'm saying GW specifically. Assuming you are correct and Dakka does represent the wider community(I'll ignore the fact that is is the same few dozen people railing against GW in these types of threads) then they absolutely should not waste their time. How is some PR dude realistically supposed to address the perceived injustices against a customer base that hold onto grudges from nearly a decade ago? What can they possibly gain from communicating with a group of people that run off anyone remotely associated with the company, even when they aren't even close to being able to address those complaints. Seriously, if the community ever wanted a chance to interact, they would have to wipe the slate clean and start fresh, and too many people are way too bitter for that to happen.
But I will say you are right, I should quit while I'm ahead. It is pointless to discuss this here. I don't have time to argue with Dakka all day. . You know perceptions are skewed when someone like me who is no doubt perceived as a GW apologist, despite the fact I have quit 40k and sold all my GW stuff over the last year, moved on to another game, and only recently have bought a few things to play Kill Team. The difference is that I'm just not as emotionally invested, so the things that get complained about don't bother me as much.
The implication being that I'm over invested, and care too much and that's somehow a bad thing? Nice attempt at a parting shot, but I'm very aware of my circumstances thank you, I'm currently too ill to be able to work, so have plenty of time in my hands to take an interest, coupled with plenty of experience in retails sales management, managing my own business and studying it at college, the bizarre actions that GW take that run so contrary to common practice and stuff I know works first hand, the sheer amount of head-grabbing, WTF moments that trickle out of Lenton on an almost daily basis leave me so baffled I like to discuss them on here to reassure myself I'm not going bat gak myself.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
azreal13 wrote: You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
I can also make the reasonable assumption that, unlike your casual friends, the customers who care enough to get upset and complain are also quite possibly ones who spend, or would spend, more than a few kits worth a year.
Minutiae aside, it is simply a terrible idea to be a multimillion pound, global business operating in such a small market and have such an insular attitude and not engage in any real dialogue with you customers. Companies like EA, Microsoft, Apple etc must surely knock GW into a cocked hat in terms of the numbers of people and depths of revulsion they generate in a certain element of the population, yet they still have lines of communication open.
Software and hardware companies are different kettles of fish, sure they get hate mail all the time, but they need a line of communication open because of how fast their world changes. How GW on the other hand, like it or not, sell a set of rules and a set of models, that's it. They don't have to hang around Internet forums and Facebook groups trying to read all the valid questions from all the "the game is unbalanced as I lost a game" "I don't like the price of this so I'm going to spend hours of my life moaning about it on the Internet instead of finding something in my price range" etc etc.
For every person that would say "hey this rule does not work for the community" there will be 10000 other moaning about costs. And that overshadows the few that would actually offer them constructive criticism. So it's no wonder they thought it pointless to pay staff to sit there reading through all the crud to fined the comments that are worth wile looking at.
The GW community is to blame for the loss of the social media. Forge world still have a FB group, because the people that comment there are commenting good feedback and asking questions relevant, still you get a few people moaning but not that many so the group still functions. GWFB group did not because it had the opposite. I'm just glad the local GW's still have FB groups open, the guys in the store are more than willing to answer questions if you have any.
Right, yeah, it's our fault. Just like it was our fault that Specialist Games were discontinued because we didn't buy enough. I mean, good lord, the battered wife analogy is trite, but seriously man, cmon?
FW still have a FB group because they haven't been bombarded by pissed off customers, yet GW closed theirs because of that reason. I wonder what conclusions we can draw between how the quasi independent sub division is run, how GW's main division is run, and those two sets of circumstances?
Here's a theory, its a little out there, but bear with me, what do you think would happen if GW started to communicate with its customers, acted like it cared, made changes where it could, explained where it was unable to why it couldn't, you know, generally acted like it gave a gak? I reckon within six months, all the huge volume of complaints you (probably correctly) anticipate would come their way would start to drop off, because I guarantee a huge percentage of the 'hate' sent GW's way is in fact just lent up frustration with no outlet, give that frustration a release valve, the problem won't go away, but it will drop to a very manageable level in very little time.
GW would clearly have to be prepared to ride out that initial storm, and they patently aren't willing to do so.
The FB group was already open they already tried it and closed it due to the moaning. I could understand your theory if it was not for the fact they already tried the social media route. And unless you want to buy a new rule book or codex everth month, just how much do you think they would be able to change stuff just by reading the very few comments that offer any kind of constructive feedback. They offer the option to phone them if you have any rule issues that havent been issued in an FAQ. And as for Specialist games being removed, yeah it sort of is our fault. Would you expect Nokia to keep storage space and tooling in their factorys and warehouses because a tiny percentage of people still want to buy 5110's?
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Seriously dude, you appear to be arguing that a company having an open dialogue with it's fans and using that as a basis to refine and improve it product and practices isn't worth pursuing, then compounding it by somehow trying to argue that a community the size of Dakka (which numbers in the tens of thousands) isn't in any way representative of the wider community?
Just because Dakka is vocal doesn't mean it represents the community as a whole. There are plenty of other forums out there. In fact, a lot of gamers get turned off by the negativity on the forum and openly mock it.
You know what? People mock other forums here too, it's just like sports teams or anything else, its human nature.
Perhaps if we're lucky Lego will pass through and furnish us with some figures, I've seen him outline Dakka's traffic in the past, and unless the size of the wargaming market is substantially larger than anyone suspects, a solid percentage of that market passes by at some point or a other.
Of course, some of us stick around and engage more than others, while others move on to Whineseer or Bell Of Loser Stupids or whatever instead.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
azreal13 wrote: You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
I can also make the reasonable assumption that, unlike your casual friends, the customers who care enough to get upset and complain are also quite possibly ones who spend, or would spend, more than a few kits worth a year.
Minutiae aside, it is simply a terrible idea to be a multimillion pound, global business operating in such a small market and have such an insular attitude and not engage in any real dialogue with you customers. Companies like EA, Microsoft, Apple etc must surely knock GW into a cocked hat in terms of the numbers of people and depths of revulsion they generate in a certain element of the population, yet they still have lines of communication open.
Software and hardware companies are different kettles of fish, sure they get hate mail all the time, but they need a line of communication open because of how fast their world changes. How GW on the other hand, like it or not, sell a set of rules and a set of models, that's it. They don't have to hang around Internet forums and Facebook groups trying to read all the valid questions from all the "the game is unbalanced as I lost a game" "I don't like the price of this so I'm going to spend hours of my life moaning about it on the Internet instead of finding something in my price range" etc etc.
For every person that would say "hey this rule does not work for the community" there will be 10000 other moaning about costs. And that overshadows the few that would actually offer them constructive criticism. So it's no wonder they thought it pointless to pay staff to sit there reading through all the crud to fined the comments that are worth wile looking at.
The GW community is to blame for the loss of the social media. Forge world still have a FB group, because the people that comment there are commenting good feedback and asking questions relevant, still you get a few people moaning but not that many so the group still functions. GWFB group did not because it had the opposite. I'm just glad the local GW's still have FB groups open, the guys in the store are more than willing to answer questions if you have any.
Right, yeah, it's our fault. Just like it was our fault that Specialist Games were discontinued because we didn't buy enough. I mean, good lord, the battered wife analogy is trite, but seriously man, cmon?
FW still have a FB group because they haven't been bombarded by pissed off customers, yet GW closed theirs because of that reason. I wonder what conclusions we can draw between how the quasi independent sub division is run, how GW's main division is run, and those two sets of circumstances?
Here's a theory, its a little out there, but bear with me, what do you think would happen if GW started to communicate with its customers, acted like it cared, made changes where it could, explained where it was unable to why it couldn't, you know, generally acted like it gave a gak? I reckon within six months, all the huge volume of complaints you (probably correctly) anticipate would come their way would start to drop off, because I guarantee a huge percentage of the 'hate' sent GW's way is in fact just lent up frustration with no outlet, give that frustration a release valve, the problem won't go away, but it will drop to a very manageable level in very little time.
GW would clearly have to be prepared to ride out that initial storm, and they patently aren't willing to do so.
The FB group was already open they already tried it and closed it due to the moaning. I could understand your theory if it was not for the fact they already tried the social media route. And unless you want to buy a new rule book or codex everth month, just how much do you think they would be able to change stuff just by reading the very few comments that offer any kind of constructive feedback. They offer the option to phone them if you have any rule issues that havent been issued in an FAQ. And as for Specialist games being removed, yeah it sort of is our fault. Would you expect Nokia to keep storage space and tooling in their factorys and warehouses because a tiny percentage of people still want to buy 5110's?
Exactly, they closed it due to the moaning! They didn't look to the reasons for the moaning and try and address them (moaning isn't the disease, its a symptom, like you said, little or no moaning on FW's page, little or no moaning about FW here, except maybe the occasional "Whut, moar marines? Which is kind of fair comment.)
No, I wouldn't expect Nokia to keep manufacturing 5110s. Or 402s, 7110s, 8210s, 8310s, 3310s, 3330s or any of their old models. But they have, at least until a little over a year ago when I stopped selling them for a living, continually kept a model which you could clearly identify as a spiritual successor to that model in production to cater to that demand, so that's a pretty poor analogy.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
The implication being that I'm over invested, and care too much and that's somehow a bad thing? Nice attempt at a parting shot, but I'm very aware of my circumstances thank you
I wasn't implying anything. How invested you are or aren't isn't any of my concern. I was simply stating I'm less invested, because their actions don't incite an emotional response from me. Lastly, I was just trying to offer some perspective. Rather than wallowing in negativity or trying to change things that clearly are out of my ability to change, I found a better use of my time. That includes frequenting Dakka much less often than I used to, because as stated elsewhere in this thread, there is no point getting shouted down for offering a different perspective.
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
The implication being that I'm over invested, and care too much and that's somehow a bad thing? Nice attempt at a parting shot, but I'm very aware of my circumstances thank you
I wasn't implying anything. How invested you are or aren't isn't any of my concern. I was simply stating I'm less invested, because their actions don't incite an emotional response from me. Lastly, I was just trying to offer some perspective. Rather than wallowing in negativity or trying to change things that clearly are out of my ability to change, I found a better use of my time. That includes frequenting Dakka much less often than I used to, because as stated elsewhere in this thread, there is no point getting shouted down for offering a different perspective.
I think stating how more or less invested you are to a person on the Internet that you've never met from another country is probably not a brilliant road to go down, suffice to say any emotional content you're attributing to my posts will largely be a projection on your part, I assure you I'm neither sat here raging, nor is Warhammer my life. Just an interesting exercise to keep my brain engaged when I have empty hours to fill in a day, and when it comes to this sort of topic, crosses over into an area I have specific experience of.
I'll also take issue with anyone who argues that there's no point in doing anything because nothing will change, nothing will change if you don't do anything is what I say.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/06 18:41:01
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
. You know perceptions are skewed when someone like me who is no doubt perceived as a 
