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I was thinking if rolling them up in a rhino and template spam a horde.

4x Missile Launchers since they are versatile

The rest I am unsure of, plasma guns effective? Melta, their versatility can be put to great use. So what would you run and for what role?

Depends on what your going up against. If your expecting hoards, missle launchers are the only choice for you! Against MEQs and heavy stuff, I like to add 2 Lascannons in. Makes them very useful against all those transports the MEQs have.

Dunno. Missile launchers are too expensive and nor reliable enough. They can miss by quite a distance with the low BS. On the other hand, they can do some damage, so it's a gambit.

Plasma guns are only usefull if you want to kill yourself. Plasma cannons I can understand since when they do hit something, corpses will be charred aplenty. But havocs are not allowed to wield any, so that's sadly off the table. (I wish for an Alpha Legion supplement that allows these babies to be plundered from imperial stockpiles and put to use).
Regular plasmaguns are single target and just not worth it, unless you know that your enemy will field a ton of terminators and you need that AP-2.

You can take two flamers and fire from the top hatch, basically giving your rhino two flame throwers but I think there are better ideas than that.

Against hordes you can try lots of heavy bolters with that Tzeench Icon granting your bolters Soul burn.

Most traditional are Autocannons though. Glance vehicles, kill marines, put out enough shots to threaten hordes.

Plasma Havocs are a pretty scary prospect when paired with a lord with a combi plasma. A combi-plasma rhino with a combi-plasma lord, a combi-plasma champ and x4 plasma gun Havocs is 12 plasma shots in rapid fire range, which will devastate even elite units. Hard to fit in a list when they aren't scoring, though. Chosen can take even more plasma but you're paying a ridiculous points tax for a single extra plasma gun.

Then there is the famous autocannon loadout, which, if you look at the numbers, is actually terrible. Dunno how I feel about melta Havocs because of their short range, guess I'll vote for plasma Havocs. Anything else is too expensive/ineffective.

 Kosake wrote:
Dunno. Missile launchers are too expensive and nor reliable enough. They can miss by quite a distance with the low BS. On the other hand, they can do some damage, so it's a gambit.

Plasma guns are only usefull if you want to kill yourself. Plasma cannons I can understand since when they do hit something, corpses will be charred aplenty. But havocs are not allowed to wield any, so that's sadly off the table. (I wish for an Alpha Legion supplement that allows these babies to be plundered from imperial stockpiles and put to use).
Regular plasmaguns are single target and just not worth it, unless you know that your enemy will field a ton of terminators and you need that AP-2.

You can take two flamers and fire from the top hatch, basically giving your rhino two flame throwers but I think there are better ideas than that.

Against hordes you can try lots of heavy bolters with that Tzeench Icon granting your bolters Soul burn.

Most traditional are Autocannons though. Glance vehicles, kill marines, put out enough shots to threaten hordes.

So if you wanted decent versatility then auto cannons are a best bet then right?

I really don't see how there is any competition with autocannons here. For only 10 points they are a steal, and are good at killing EVERYTHING (except AV 13 & 14, but we can't ask for everything all the time).

herpguy wrote:
I really don't see how there is any competition with autocannons here. For only 10 points they are a steal, and are good at killing EVERYTHING (except AV 13 & 14, but we can't ask for everything all the time).

I don't know why people keep saying this. On average, they take off about 2 hull points from AV12 or lower, and have roughly a 25% chance of exploding them. They suck against pretty much anything else. There are much better long range AT units in the CSM codex, namely, combi-preds, which cost the exact same amount of points as a barebones autocannon Havoc squad and don't die if you look at them wrong. Plus Havocs are actually more expensive because you're gonna need some ablative wounds.

You have Rhino-Havocs and you have long-range Havocs.

Rhino-Havocs can be given either Plasma Guns or Meltas, and can work very well for shooting down elites and/or vehicles. Chosen can also do this just as well, but are more expensive. (If you want to you can run 3 units of both for up to 72(?) Plasma shots!)

Long-range Havocs often work best when parked behind a defense line, the sergeant can also man a Quad Gun or a Comms Relay.

Both get a massive buff if you have a Tzeentch herald nearby, as he can buff them with Prescience. It can be difficult having him close enough to Rhino-Havocs, but re-rolling those Get Hots!-rolls can be huge if you pull it off.

Otherwise, your enemy will enjoy every instance of your weapons getting hot. Not only is the shot not fired but you also have a chance to loose the havoc in question.

Seriously, if you don't want to hunt terminators, you're better off with assault cannons. Against elite infantry they work functionally even better - more shots, longer range, you don't hurt yourself firing it.

If that rumor about veteran havocs being able to get relentless becomes reality, I'll be running havocs with quad HB and quad AC, advancing the enemy lines shovering them in a nice, warm hailstorm of armor piercing bolts/ac-rounds.

 Kosake wrote:
Otherwise, your enemy will enjoy every instance of your weapons getting hot. Not only is the shot not fired but you also have a chance to loose the havoc in question.

Seriously, if you don't want to hunt terminators, you're better off with assault cannons. Against elite infantry they work functionally even better - more shots, longer range, you don't hurt yourself firing it.

I assume you mean autocannons. If we actually had assault cannons, I would be fielding Havocs all day erry day.

 ZultanQ wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
Otherwise, your enemy will enjoy every instance of your weapons getting hot. Not only is the shot not fired but you also have a chance to loose the havoc in question.

Seriously, if you don't want to hunt terminators, you're better off with assault cannons. Against elite infantry they work functionally even better - more shots, longer range, you don't hurt yourself firing it.

I assume you mean autocannons. If we actually had assault cannons, I would be fielding Havocs all day erry day.

What he says. But seriously, autocannons rock. Longer range ftw.

The strongest havocs are the ones with the best guns. The best gun is the lascannon. Anything worse than the lascannon is because you like the aesthetic, or you're just screwing around.

The only other serious alternative I could see would be to use havocs as a special weapons squad. They can take 4x plasma or melta guns and a combi-weapon and still fit in a rhino or, more importantly, land raider. Don't know why you'd want a defensive weapon like this, though. If your opponent is in plasma or melta range, then odds are that they're also in assault range.

Plasma havocs have one over their auto/lascannon brethren by being much more maneuverable. They're chosen for half the cost that can score in 1/6 of missions. Or just run a combi-flamer / 4 flamers and do drive-by roasts.

Their survivability, and any other havoc squad in a rhino, compared to predators/forgefiends/oblits is kinda up in the air since you have to blow up their ride before you can hurt the squad itself. They're better against a list full of anti-tank than the other heavy options, worse against lots of mass str7.

Honestly I like Havocs a lot more than their loyalist counterparts. You can kit them out for backfield support or vanguard softening-up. Kind of a combined sternguard/devastator unit.

Havocs +4 ac period

Since the whole point of my Havocs is to open transports so the Helldrake or doomsiren can fry the contents inside I've found that 4 autocannons is my best bet for light transport hunting. HPs or explosions, its all the same if they guys inside are bunched up when it dies.

Autocannons and Lascannons preform very similarly for AV10 to 12. Against AV13+ Lascannons are significantly better. Lascannons are the strongest option but folding in cost not necessarily always the best. If all your list needs is a transport popper, AC do just as good and will save you some points, Especially across multiple squads.

Exactly. Lascannons are nearly the same or better against your intended target type. Except then the lascannon goes on to also be good against MCs, heavy vehicles, MEq and TEq.

You might as well say that a car isn't any better than a unicycle because they can both get me to the convenience store a few feet from my house.

I am having success running 4 Lascannon havocs inside a bastion. It keeps them protected and they can threaten all vehicles, Wraithknights and Riptides.

Off topic -

What I really want to try is a 10-man squad of 4 Heavy Bolter Devastators with the Imperial Fist doctrine. Line them up on a Fortress if Redemption with 4 extra heavy bolters and the unit shoots 8 heavy bolters (24 shots) rerolling 1's and tank hunting.

 Ailaros wrote:
Exactly. Lascannons are nearly the same or better against your intended target type. Except then the lascannon goes on to also be good against MCs, heavy vehicles, MEq and TEq.

You might as well say that a car isn't any better than a unicycle because they can both get me to the convenience store a few feet from my house.

You're absolutely right and this is a good analogy. Both will carry you the few feet the same, indeed a car is also much better at long trips, but its also true that bikes are cheaper than cars. So, like many people do, some will find use to have both bike and car or even indeed a bike instead of a car. I maintain that autocannons have their uses. If they costed the same then yah, I'd take the lascannon everytime.

If you stop ignoring carrier costs, then it wouldn't be an issue. Is a single autocannon more expensive than a single lascannon? Yes. Does that mean that they are, over all, cheaper? Barely.

To make the analogy work correctly with what you're talking about, it has to look like this:

I spent $700 a month to rent out an apartment near a convenience store. I have the choice to spend $50 a month to rent a unicycle, or I can spend $100 to own a car. In this case, rending an apartment and owning a unicycle is better than renting an apartment and owning a car, because the unicycle is cheaper, and they can both get me to my corner convenience store.

That's absurd, and we all know it. Whatever pittance you're saving by not taking the clearly better option isn't in any way worth the value that you lose by not taking the clearly better option.

I didn't refer to any costs other than to say one was cheaper. so I wasn't ignoring the carriers.

Meh, If you like las by all means, more power to you, take what you want. With one or two havoc squads, sometimes I (and apparently at least a few others above) would rather have the 40-80 pts elsewhere. To me at least its not a negligible 'pittance' that 'we all know is absurd'

35 pts for a las cannon and CSM
20 pts for an auto cannon and CSM

against armor 11 las cannon glance or better 56% of the time , vs armor 12 they glance or better 43% of the time
auto cannon glance or better against AV 11 about 66% of the time, against armor 12 they glance or better 43% of the time

against GEQ las cannons kill .56 models
auto cannons kill 1.32 GEQ

against MEQ las cannons cause .56 wounds
autocannons cause .36 wounds

against a toughness 6 MC with a 3+ las cannon inflict .56 wounds
autocannons inflict .29 wounds

Given that the lascannon costs 1.4 times as much as an autocannon, autocannon are far better at killing light troops and armor 10-12 vehicles, and almost the same for killing MEQs. All this is figured in the absence of cover saves with further enhance AC for dealing with infantry. Against Terminators out of cover, MC and heavier armor the las cannon is a solid choice. las cannon also have about a 16% advantage when it comes to significant damage due to a penetrating hit. Making the pens far more deadly than those caused by a AC.


To each his own, but a unit of havoc with 4 auto cannons and 10 cultists is cheaper than a unit of havoc with 4 lascannnon. I prefer the quantity of fire. Other stuff thats better than a lascannon might as well do the heavy lifting for my army. (melta, MC etc).

If not running a plasma/melta rush Havocs squad in a Rhino;

For cover camping 48" bubble shooters, ALWAYS take at least two Autocannons. Then the remaining two become situational.

Against heavily armoured vehicles: (Land Raider, Leman Russ, etc.) Lascannons.
Against blob carrying transports: Missile Launchers
Against flyers: An Aegis Defence Line, a Heldrake or an allied Soul Grinder. Flakk missiles are a joke thanks to their price tag.

But, more often than not, I end up fielding them with just 4 Autocannons.
Autocannons are that good.
If your opponent has anything that the Autocannon can't dent, then don't shoot at it with Autocannons and have the rest of your army deal with them