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 Peregrine wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Regardless of source, any instance where someone aquires models but does not give GW money is exactly the same.

Sigh. Why is this so hard to understand? Sales of used models still involve models that were legally purchased from GW. Sales of recasts do not. The ebay sales of legal models generate new sales directly from GW because people are more likely to buy new stuff directly from GW if they know it's a low-risk purchase because ebay exists. Recasts, on the other hand, will never under any circumstances produce profit for GW at any point.

Well, I guess a legitimate copy has to be purchased from GW at some point, or what else to the recasters use to make their recast?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But a lot of covers aim to be the same and the differences come from how badly they failed. Kind of like recasting something and introducing flaws?

No, not at all the same. Recasting and introducing flaws would be more like burning pirated cds of the new album and accidentally scratching them.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Regardless of source, any instance where someone aquires models but does not give GW money is exactly the same.

Sigh. Why is this so hard to understand? Sales of used models still involve models that were legally purchased from GW. Sales of recasts do not. The ebay sales of legal models generate new sales directly from GW because people are more likely to buy new stuff directly from GW if they know it's a low-risk purchase because ebay exists. Recasts, on the other hand, will never under any circumstances produce profit for GW at any point.

Well, I guess a legitimate copy has to be purchased from GW at some point, or what else to the recasters use to make their recast?

Yes, they make one purchase of the original to copy, GW gets money once, as opposed to multiple times that a copy would sell in the stead of their actual models

Waaaghpower wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm sure you can go to dozens of forums and find pages upon pages of arguing whether or not copyright infringement is theft, lol.

It's definitely theft, but it's not as severe as directly taking the product from its owner.

Actually, legally it's not theft. It's still bad and I still don't condone it, but legally, theft is something else. If copyright infringement were theft, it wouldn't be called copyright infringement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#.22Theft.22

So legally, no, it's not theft. Now whether you still want to call it theft simply becomes a matter of semantics. The better thing to argue is whether it's wrong or not, as soon as you mention the word "theft" it becomes a matter of semantics rather than morality.

As long as no one directs people to recasters, or links directly to recasters, or shows anyone how to recast someone's work - then this thread can continue to live.

However, once those things start popping up...

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, I guess a legitimate copy has to be purchased from GW at some point, or what else to the recasters use to make their recast?

Yes, one copy, unless they buy it from another recaster. But then that one model is used to produce an endless number of copies. Selling real models on ebay, on the other hand, requires one sale from GW for every model in the pool of available models to buy from.

 Peregrine wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Regardless of source, any instance where someone aquires models but does not give GW money is exactly the same.

Sigh. Why is this so hard to understand? Sales of used models still involve models that were legally purchased from GW. Sales of recasts do not. The ebay sales of legal models generate new sales directly from GW because people are more likely to buy new stuff directly from GW if they know it's a low-risk purchase because ebay exists. Recasts, on the other hand, will never under any circumstances produce profit for GW at any point.

It's the same song, just performed by someone else.

No, because a cover is still not the same. It might have a lot of the same elements, but it's still a different song. With recasts the only difference is whether you're buying a legal product, or supporting IP theft and slave labor.

If you make your own casts of models, like third party developers, then you aren't makimg the same product. That was my point. Covers of a song are like third party models. Pirated downloads are like recasts.

As for sales of used models: It's true that the models did, at one point, profit GW. But, THE SALE on Ebay doesn't profit them in any way, just likehow THE SALE of a recast doesn't profit them. Saying that a used model's sale increases GW's business is just silly.

 Peregrine wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But a lot of covers aim to be the same and the differences come from how badly they failed. Kind of like recasting something and introducing flaws?

No, not at all the same. Recasting and introducing flaws would be more like burning pirated cds of the new album and accidentally scratching them.

My (admittedly cryptic) point was analogies are stupid

Why do we have to say buying an illegally copied model is like blah blah blah when we can just say buying an illegally copied model is kind of like buying an illegally copied model?

I wonder where people's opinions of scratch-builds fall. Like someone who builds a plasticard thunderhawk or plasticard warhound. I wish that was a poll choice, I'm curious.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But a lot of covers aim to be the same and the differences come from how badly they failed. Kind of like recasting something and introducing flaws?

No, not at all the same. Recasting and introducing flaws would be more like burning pirated cds of the new album and accidentally scratching them.

My (admittedly cryptic) point was analogies are stupid

Why do we have to say buying an illegally copied model is like blah blah blah when we can just say buying an illegally copied model is kind of like buying an illegally copied model?

This belongs in the Tautology section, where it should go.

While recasters may be generally unethical, I would buy from them if it was actually convenient, lol. But I usually buy directly from my FLGS because I would rather support local game stores and can afford to do so. Also I hate waiting.

However, I think it's important to consider that there are some people who would not play 40k if they couldn't buy cheap recasts, because they can't afford legit models. GW is not losing business in this case because they never had it in the first place.

My point here is that buying from recasters doesn't *always* mean GW lost business. They only lose business if somebody who usually buys their products decides to start buying from recasters. And I doubt there are many people who buy solely from recasters compared to people who have at least bought a few things from GW. While I don't have any numbers on this, I suspect recasters are hurting GW a lot less than the Intellectual Property Internet Defense Force would have you believe.

 ZultanQ wrote:
While recasters may be generally unethical, I would buy from them if it was actually convenient, lol. But I usually buy directly from my FLGS because I would rather support local game stores and can afford to do so. Also I hate waiting.

However, I think it's important to consider that there are some people who would not play 40k if they couldn't buy cheap recasts, because they can't afford legit models. GW is not losing business in this case because they never had it in the first place.

My point here is that buying from recasters doesn't *always* mean GW lost business. They only lose business if somebody who usually buys their products decides to start buying from recasters. And I doubt there are many people who buy solely from recasters compared to people who have at least bought a few things from GW. While I don't have any numbers on this, I suspect recasters are hurting GW a lot less than the Intellectual Property Internet Defense Force would have you believe.

Thats because most people are scared of them lol.

As to third party models I find many to be superior in quality and so forth, they just lack lots of options sometimes. But thats what converting is for.

I will say, my general opinion on recasts...

1) It is illegal. But not all illegal things are wrong.

2) I think it is wrong if GW are producing and selling the miniatures to buy them from a recaster, as IMO the creator of content (be it a model maker, a musician, a movie/game studio, etc) has the right to place limitations on what they have created. I know not all people agree with me, but that's my personal feeling.

3) If GW are no longer producing the model, IMO I don't think recasting is wrong. It is still illegal, yes, but as I said, not all illegal things are "wrong". If GW have abandoned their design so they are no longer profiting from it, then IMO it should be fair game for recasters.

I know not everyone agrees with me on that, people who think OOP models should be left to become collectible may disagree with me on point 3, and I know some people who think you are free to copy and share what you like will disagree with me on point 2.

But that's my personal opinion on recasts. I will also say I currently own 0 recasts that I'm aware of in my many thousands of dollars worth of models. I do buy stuff 2nd hand though so there might be some things I'm unaware of that are recasts. I would, however, be very happy to buy recast Aeronautica Imperialis, recast Epic or recast BFG as GW no longer makes them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll add to what I just said and say I have no problem with ebay and 3rd party miniatures as long as the 3rd party miniatures are not close to direct copies of GW models.

The thing with recasts, heres how I see it.

The price the thing is through FW, say $500. At that price FW wont give my business, and they dont discount anything, pretty much ever

The recaster sells it for $300, they'd get my business for that price.

Is the original seller losing my business, if I wouldnt give them my business at the prices they have in the first place?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
The thing with recasts, heres how I see it.

The price the thing is through FW, say $500. At that price FW wont give my business, and they dont discount anything, pretty much ever

The recaster sells it for $300, they'd get my business for that price.

Is the original seller losing my business, if I wouldnt give them my business at the prices they have in the first place?

No, they aren't. But IMO that still doesn't make it right to buy it from a recaster.

The price set by FW (should) be representative of the time it took (thus money paid) for modellers to create the model and them to create high quality moulds and then produce a high quality model. A recaster does not have the same costs, so IMO it's wrong to buy from a recaster even if you weren't going to buy it anyway. The recaster is not competing with GW, the recaster is taking a GW model to save them the expense of creating it themselves and then riding on the coat tails of GW's name in order to drum up business. It's entirely possible (not saying it's the case, but it's possible) for a recaster to sell a model for less than GW/FW, sell the same number as models GW/FW did, but actually make more money off it because they didn't have the associated costs of creating the master model and master mould or the advertising to get the model in to the lime light.

There is no way of saying recasts is right, its just up to you if you are OK with getting it or not. Just like music and movies and so on.

Yeah, I should have worded it more carefully. When I say "wrong" I mean morally wrong and when I said "right" I meant morally not wrong.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
The thing with recasts, heres how I see it.

The price the thing is through FW, say $500. At that price FW wont give my business, and they dont discount anything, pretty much ever

The recaster sells it for $300, they'd get my business for that price.

Is the original seller losing my business, if I wouldnt give them my business at the prices they have in the first place?

No, they aren't. But IMO that still doesn't make it right to buy it from a recaster.

The price set by FW (should) be representative of the time it took (thus money paid) for modellers to create the model and them to create high quality moulds and then produce a high quality model. A recaster does not have the same costs, so IMO it's wrong to buy from a recaster even if you weren't going to buy it anyway. The recaster is not competing with GW, the recaster is taking a GW model to save them the expense of creating it themselves and then riding on the coat tails of GW's name in order to drum up business.

Perhaps, FW has the right to set the price at whatever they want. Doesnt mean everyone will pay at that price if there are other options.

Morally wrong perhaps, but in regards to the sale, its just business. Personally, the choice between paying full price and feeling good and fluffy or saving a couple of hundred bucks and feeling slightly guilty; I'll honestly take the second choice. But thats just me.

Is it morally wrong to overcharge for an item because you know you can because you're the only one that makes it?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
The thing with recasts, heres how I see it.

The price the thing is through FW, say $500. At that price FW wont give my business, and they dont discount anything, pretty much ever

The recaster sells it for $300, they'd get my business for that price.

Is the original seller losing my business, if I wouldnt give them my business at the prices they have in the first place?

No, they aren't. But IMO that still doesn't make it right to buy it from a recaster.

The price set by FW (should) be representative of the time it took (thus money paid) for modellers to create the model and them to create high quality moulds and then produce a high quality model. A recaster does not have the same costs, so IMO it's wrong to buy from a recaster even if you weren't going to buy it anyway. The recaster is not competing with GW, the recaster is taking a GW model to save them the expense of creating it themselves and then riding on the coat tails of GW's name in order to drum up business.

Perhaps, FW has the right to set the price at whatever they want. Doesnt mean everyone will pay at that price if there are other options.

Morally wrong perhaps, but in regards to the sale, its just business. Personally, the choice between paying full price and feeling good and fluffy or saving a couple of hundred bucks and feeling slightly guilty; I'll honestly take the second choice. But thats just me.

Is it morally wrong to overcharge for an item because you know you can because you're the only one that makes it?

After I pay 100 NZD for the next Imperial Guard Codex I will no longer feel guilty at all. Especially since my last one cost 40NZD, or the rule book costing 230NZD etc, books are all i buy from them because I cant justify the kind of money they are asking. I will never by recasts of a non GW product though, but like everybody else, its a choice to make.

I'll buy Ebay if I can get it for less than 50% of retail. Higher than that and I will choose to support my local game store.

I will absolutely buy third party models. I have no financial loyalty to Games Workshop. They have enough of my money. When buying 3rd party, I ask my local proprietor if he can get it. If so, I buy through him. If not, I buy online.

I will totally buy recasts, but only of Forgeworld models. As of yet, I have never found a recast of the models I want, but I'd still be willing to take the risk to get some of those bad boys on the cheap. There's no conflict of loyalty here because, again, I have no particular loyalty to GW (financially) and Forgeworld won't deal through local shops, so I'm not picking the pocket of the Mom-n-Pop store owner either.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Perhaps, FW has the right to set the price at whatever they want. Doesnt mean everyone will pay at that price if there are other options.

But if those options are recasters, IMO those options are not genuine options.

Morally wrong perhaps, but in regards to the sale, its just business. Personally, the choice between paying full price and feeling good and fluffy or saving a couple of hundred bucks and feeling slightly guilty; I'll honestly take the second choice. But thats just me.

But it's not "just business". The recasting company isn't actually competing with GW, they are illegally (and IMO, wrongly) selling something they themselves didn't do the work to create.

Whether you feel guilty or not is a matter of what our society thinks is right and wrong (or some inherent belief of what right or wrong is depending on who you ask). Whether you can live with the guilt you feel is up to you. The reason I don't buy recasts has nothing to do with guilt, at least not for me.

No, it's not the same as walking in to a shop and physically stealing something. No, legally speaking it's not theft. But it's still illegal and IMO it's still wrong.

Is it morally wrong to overcharge for an item because you know you can because you're the only one that makes it?

IMO, no, it's not. Not for luxury items anyway. If we were talking about essential items like food, water, housing, then yes, IMO it is wrong. But with a luxury item like miniatures, IMO you should be able to charge whatever you think you can get. If you price it to high and genuine competitors (like Mantic, Perry, Privateer Press) come along and steal your business, that's your fault for pricing too high. If someone comes along and undercuts you by taking your creation and copying it without any of the associated expenses you had to initially create it, that IMO is wrong and it's the reason we have copyright law in the first place (though, I will also say, IMO copyright law is quite flawed, but it's still there for good reason).

As a gamer, I want to see COMPETITION encouraged, which does NOT mean recasters, it means other companies coming along and producing quality models of their own for lower prices than GW.

ebay and other sources that sell GW/FW items at 20-30% off new items....always.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
when you think of saving tax (here 9.9%) & postage, a 30% discount is nearly 45% off retail....

 bu11etmagn3tt wrote:
ebay and other sources that sell GW/FW items at 20-30% off new items....always.

Is there anywhere that sells FW items at a discount that isn't a recaster? If so, I would like to know who they are so I can buy myself a DKoK army

 bu11etmagn3tt wrote:
ebay and other sources that sell GW/FW items at 20-30% off new items....always.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
when you think of saving tax (here 9.9%) & postage, a 30% discount is nearly 45% off retail....

There are places that sell FW for discount? Legitimate FW?

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'll buy Ebay if I can get it for less than 50% of retail. Higher than that and I will choose to support my local game store.

I will absolutely buy third party models. I have no financial loyalty to Games Workshop. They have enough of my money. When buying 3rd party, I ask my local proprietor if he can get it. If so, I buy through him. If not, I buy online.

I will totally buy recasts, but only of Forgeworld models. As of yet, I have never found a recast of the models I want, but I'd still be willing to take the risk to get some of those bad boys on the cheap. There's no conflict of loyalty here because, again, I have no particular loyalty to GW (financially) and Forgeworld won't deal through local shops, so I'm not picking the pocket of the Mom-n-Pop store owner either.

check ebay, there is a Russian & Chinese seller that has (recast?) FW... I bought Chaos Dwarves from each (and FW direct too), and I think they are the real deal from FW that those Russian & Chinese guys sell. If they are not, they are at least 99.9% close. I saved 33% off FW prices....

They're probably recasts

Ok, to try and widen the focus back a bit, my current 40K army project is Daemons, with the self stated aim of using third party, alternate minis wherever possible.

Consequently, when shopping for a GUO, I purchased this....



Because this...



Is a piece of tiny, overpriced crap.

However, I have subsequently obtained this fella (paint job is mine, still WIP)



Now, I don't know this is a recast, but given the price I paid, I suspect it probably is. As it came to me through personal channels rather than over the net, I can't be sure that I just didn't get one for a good price. Regardless, it arrived in the same sort of condition that anything I've personally ordered from FW.

Either way, I would never have purchased the GW model because I don't like it, and I could never have spent £120 (incl shipping) on the FW, even though I love the sculpt, so GW would never have seen a penny from me for this purchase.

I have bought GW models for this army where they represent value (most of the plastic troop boxes, except I've been slowly accumulating Diaznnettes, as, again, current ones are gak) or I genuinely think the models are ace (Bloodcrushers - thanks new codex for meaning they are now dust collectors ) but I think by breaking out of the mindset of what you're 'allowed' to use, or thinking that somehow GW are the hobby, people will find more value and greater diversity, and hence more joy, in their armies.

I really wish GW would take some of the awesomeness of FW and start putting it in to the mainstream game. If DKoK had a plastic kit instead of Cadians and Catachans, they'd sell like hot cakes. If the GW daemons looked like the FW daemons, I'd have a daemon army by now.

The main reason I tend to not buy 3rd party models all that much is I like an army to have a cohesive feel to it, and while some 3rd party models look awesome compared to GW models, they often lack the necessary range to completely create a whole army from them and they don't look cohesive next to GW models or other 3rd party models.

Well they're trying to with Escalation, but they're doing it in a pretty shady way by not at least making one Forgeworld/superheavy option through Normal GW for every faction.

If they at least one plastic option through normal GW option for a superheavy for everyone instead of throwing some armies a bone and the rest are with left with terrible FW prices, it woulndt be as bad

The fabled plastic Thunderhawk comes to mind...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I really wish GW would take some of the awesomeness of FW and start putting it in to the mainstream game. If DKoK had a plastic kit instead of Cadians and Catachans, they'd sell like hot cakes. If the GW daemons looked like the FW daemons, I'd have a daemon army by now.

The main reason I tend to not buy 3rd party models all that much is I like an army to have a cohesive feel to it, and while some 3rd party models look awesome compared to GW models, they often lack the necessary range to completely create a whole army from them and they don't look cohesive next to GW models or other 3rd party models.

With a bit of work, it can work. My blog is in my sig and its (so Far besides vehicles) all Victoria Minis, I have some Perry miniatures im doing up now for them too. It looks great for what i was trying to acheive (although someone else painted them). It can work just gotta plan it out, something you dont have to do with GW.