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I've always considered plasma pistols to be bad for the same reason as everyone else: ridiculous point cost, and at the risk of killing your own guys, no less.

But wait a second. I've been thinking, and have a few things that are making me second guess my plasma pistol hate.

First, whenever I take wargear, I ask myself, "Will this make its points back"? The answer to the plasma pistol seems to be yes in several cases. Since space marines are the units with most access to plasma pistols, you have a good chance of hitting something, and at AP 2 STR7 whatever one wound model it hits is probably going to die. Against MEQs this almost guarantees a dead marine, and you might even kill a TEQ and make back double points. This obviously isn't very useful against horde armies, but you could always make your plasma pistol unit elite hunters against such armies. They even have a shot at taking down light armor.

The biggest objection to the plasma pistol is "but... melta guns are strictly better". I'm speaking as a CSM player, so yes, melta guns are better on regular CSM. Plus CSM units only have access to two plasma pistols (one troop and the champ) because... why Phil Kelly? So really, this thread might be better geared to Khorne Berzerkers, who have access to plasma pistols as their only "special weapons". Now taking 3 plasma pistols (champ and two zerkers) is 45 points, which is excessive when considering the unit's already atrocious point cost. But why not two on a couple troops? For 30 points you're putting a hurting on MEQ/TEQ when combined with your assault kills, making your "not really dangerous assault troops" a little scarier. They will earn their points back against 3+ and 2+ armor saves at least, and if Khorne smiles upon you, you have a sliver of a chance at popping a rhino and can make DE armor cry. And only two plasma pistols mitigates your chance of self pwnage. A couple plasma pistols would also be worth it on some assault Chosen since we're already talking about suboptimal units.

So let's look at some numbers. I'm making what I consider an optimum setup for Berzerkers. This is a unit that would still be hard to fit in most lists because it's footslogging MEQ, but Huron Blackheart saves the day here. If you want to be fluffy just convert your own Khornate warlord and give him Huron's gear, now he's Bloodbane The Terrible, counts-as Blackheart. And don't even get me started on why Rhinos are a terrible assault transport. The only thing worth putting in CSM Rhinos are Havocs/Plague Marines/Noise Marines and anybody who says otherwise is a giant... see? Anyway:

x15 Khorne Berzerkers, x2 plasma pistols: 325 points. You should be already near an enemy so IoW not a requirement, we're trying to keep points down here.

The idea here is to run these guys with a MoK lord who makes them scoring and will be making the challenges, so spending points on the champ's weapons is not entirely necessary. Now infiltrate these angry dudes with Huron's warlord trait.

Charging MEQ that means:

About 9 hits from 13 bolt pistols, around 4 wounds before saves and 1 marine actually dead. Plus whatever your Lord shot at them, if he has the Burning Brand of Skalathrax they are going to have a bad day, but let's just say that's another dead marine. The plasma pistols kill another guy on average, so you're pretty much guaranteed to earn between 13-20 points of the 30 points you spent depending on the MEQ you killed, maybe a lot more if your opponent is a dummy. Counting the fractions of percentages of unsaved wounds leftover from the shots there's another marine, so now you have 4 dead marines, whereas without the plasma pistols you would have had only 2. So there, you at least earned back your points with the plasma pistols and maybe even then some. Good thing you have around 56 attacks (would be 60 but they killed one or two of your guys with bolt pistol/boltgun overwatch on average) which averages 6 more dead marines. If they killed more of your Berzerkers with special weapons, well, that just makes the plasma pistols even more prudent.

Odds are you just wiped out over half their squad, which gives them a chance of getting swept or at the very least locked in hopeless combat for another round, saving you from getting shot up shortly afterwards. That is, an MEQ unit with comparable point cost to your 325 point Berzerkers are getting locked in combat they can't win, and 10 marines by themselves are just done. Even if they have FnP or some other nonsense, things aren't looking good for them. So in the end, there's pretty much no MEQ squad that will come out on top of this charge.

I'm not going to do the math against TEQ but needless to say the plasma pistols will likely earn there points back there, and with TEQ units having lower model counts you can bone them with this unit as well.

There could be something said against infiltrating this unit because it puts you at a significant risk for charges, which spells extra disaster in this specific scenario, but maybe I'll cover that later. I'm getting tired of typing this novel, lol. A short rebuttal would be to sync the other units in your army so that this doesn't happen. What do you guys think?

I don't have your codex and don't know point cost or stats but I can make a couple assumptions. Your plasma pistol might kill another marine and make your charge even longer. So cheers on earning your points back but adding another inch or two to your charge on top of assumed casualties from over watch. 15 points can buy another body and another body is usually always better than a 12" S7 AP2 shot that you will be lucky to use once if at all the entire game. If you really start loading up on these things you are may end up trading an entire unit for what? The chance to kill 1 thing? If I am spending 15 points on a single model upgrade it better be something that I intend to use on multiple occasions throughout the game. Pistols just don't offer that benefit.

(unless of course its a melta/fusion pistol with a delivery method, but w/e)

 Goldphish wrote:
I don't have your codex and don't know point cost or stats but I can make a couple assumptions. Your plasma pistol might kill another marine and make your charge even longer. So cheers on earning your points back but adding another inch or two to your charge on top of assumed casualties from over watch. 15 points can buy another body and another body is usually always better than a 12" S7 AP2 shot that you will be lucky to use once if at all the entire game. If you really start loading up on these things you are may end up trading an entire unit for what? The chance to kill 1 thing? If I am spending 15 points on a single model upgrade it better be something that I intend to use on multiple occasions throughout the game. Pistols just don't offer that benefit.

(unless of course its a melta/fusion pistol with a delivery method, but w/e)

15 points doesn't buy another Berzerker because they're stupidly overcosted, and another Berzerker aint worth much anyway, lol. And I'm only taking 2 plasma pistols, so I would only get one Berzerker if I ditched the pistols and 2 plasma shots are much more deadly than a single Berzerker.

Overwatch kills maybe 1 or 2 of my Berzerkers against MEQ IF they have special weapons (my calculation was actually wrong because I counted their overwatch as full BS but on average they don't even kill a single model with bolt pistols/boltguns) so it's not that big of a deal depending on your position, but yes, deadlier shooting makes charging harder. This is hopefully softened by having Huron inflitrate the unit so that your charges shouldn't be longshots.

Give the champion the plasma pistol rather than a dude in the squad. Reasons are pretty simple: Champions can precision shot, and if you manage to snipe an enemy character with one, boon time! Boons for everyone.

I will also add "Thousand Sons" to things worth putting in Rhinos. Slow and purposeful means they need the mobility a Rhino provides, and 2 guys making pot shots out the top every turn at AP3 is pretty handy. Whether you think Thousand Sons are worth bringing or not is not the point, just saying a Rhino really helps that unit.

How many shots are you realistically going to get out of each Plasma Pistol? I'd say more often then not a single shot before you charge, then you either wipe the squad you charged and you get shot to death or you get counter charged by a competent CC unit which can beat Beserkers (There are quite a few, without the Charge Beserkers simply lose a lot of killing power). What are the chances that those 2 shots will make there points back? You are playing against a lot of odds, the optimum target being in range, cover saves, invuls, missing, failed to wound, killing yourself, shooting yourself outta charge range, being sniped out, are they worth it? I would say no personally, those points can be spent else where on other weapons. Not sure on the exact points, but can't those 30pts buy that Chaos Lord the Burning Brand? Wouldn't that be a more effective choice as it has to contend with less variables, ignoring cover, missing, blowing yourself up and being sniped out all while effecting more models.

I know how you feel, My Wych Sarge always has a Blast Pistol and barely ever uses it with it's measly range of 6''. But it is simply a bad investment. Say what do you do against armies such as Mechdar, Suit Tau or Flying Circus (Daemons or Tyranids). You won't catch the suits or grav tanks and the flying things can either out manoeuvre you or out fight you. You are trying to make an uncompetitive unit competitive by adding uncompetitive upgrades to it, think bout that.

Well if it's working for you have at it. But for most people it'd be a rough investment.

While two wrongs won't make a right, three lefts will.

Plasma Pistols are absolutely terrible. Even if you kill a marine you won't have made your points back, and that's if you kill a marine. .66 Chance to hit, .83 chance to wound, and a a .66 chance to fail a 5+ cover gives you a whopping .36 chance to kill a marine! Congratulations you've made 5 points! That is considering you've even gotten to shot and not killed yourself

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
How many shots are you realistically going to get out of each Plasma Pistol? I'd say more often then not a single shot before you charge, then you either wipe the squad you charged and you get shot to death or you get counter charged by a competent CC unit which can beat Beserkers (There are quite a few, without the Charge Beserkers simply lose a lot of killing power). What are the chances that those 2 shots will make there points back? You are playing against a lot of odds, the optimum target being in range, cover saves, invuls, missing, failed to wound, killing yourself, shooting yourself outta charge range, being sniped out, are they worth it? I would say no personally, those points can be spent else where on other weapons. Not sure on the exact points, but can't those 30pts buy that Chaos Lord the Burning Brand? Wouldn't that be a more effective choice as it has to contend with less variables, ignoring cover, missing, blowing yourself up and being sniped out all while effecting more models.

I know how you feel, My Wych Sarge always has a Blast Pistol and barely ever uses it with it's measly range of 6''. But it is simply a bad investment. Say what do you do against armies such as Mechdar, Suit Tau or Flying Circus (Daemons or Tyranids). You won't catch the suits or grav tanks and the flying things can either out manoeuvre you or out fight you. You are trying to make an uncompetitive unit competitive by adding uncompetitive upgrades to it, think bout that.

I am not trying to make an uncompetitive unit competitive at all. I'm saying "Don't take Berzerkers ever, but if you do, consider plasma pistols because they're only worth it on *this unit*". Although any special weapons are risky, for 30 points you confer a 25% increase in combat effectiveness on average to your Berzerkers. Not the best, but not too bad. Basically, I'm taking an expensive, bad unit with negligible damage output and making it an expensive, bad unit with mediocre damage output. A 325 unit that does something okay-ish is better than a 295 unit that does pretty much nothing.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Give the champion the plasma pistol rather than a dude in the squad. Reasons are pretty simple: Champions can precision shot, and if you manage to snipe an enemy character with one, boon time! Boons for everyone.

I will also add "Thousand Sons" to things worth putting in Rhinos. Slow and purposeful means they need the mobility a Rhino provides, and 2 guys making pot shots out the top every turn at AP3 is pretty handy. Whether you think Thousand Sons are worth bringing or not is not the point, just saying a Rhino really helps that unit.

A valid point that I hadn't considered. I'd give him one plasma pistol and one to a regular Berzerker, and that's it for upgrades.

 Feasible wrote:
Plasma Pistols are absolutely terrible. Even if you kill a marine you won't have made your points back, and that's if you kill a marine. .66 Chance to hit, .83 chance to wound, and a a .66 chance to fail a 5+ cover gives you a whopping .36 chance to kill a marine! Congratulations you've made 5 points! That is considering you've even gotten to shot and not killed yourself

Yes 1 Plasma Pistol is not worth it. An large number of them though can make a difrence.
I run a Space Wolf Scout Pack with 2 Plasma Pistols and a Plasma Gum. The nuber of times Those Plamsa Shots have taken out a Transports and Terminatos, not counting MCs.
It has more with how you use them more than how many models you just kill.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Feasible wrote:
Plasma Pistols are absolutely terrible. Even if you kill a marine you won't have made your points back, and that's if you kill a marine. .66 Chance to hit, .83 chance to wound, and a a .66 chance to fail a 5+ cover gives you a whopping .36 chance to kill a marine! Congratulations you've made 5 points! That is considering you've even gotten to shot and not killed yourself

Yes 1 Plasma Pistol is not worth it. An large number of them though can make a difrence.
I run a Space Wolf Scout Pack with 2 Plasma Pistols and a Plasma Gum. The nuber of times Those Plamsa Shots have taken out a Transports and Terminatos, not counting MCs.
It has more with how you use them more than how many models you just kill.

No, a large number of plasma pistols FURTHERS the mistake. You then present a bigger target, will get yourself out of charge range, have a larger chance to kill yourself, and will be wasting even more points. Now comparing Scouts that have a Plasma Gun (which I am a huge advocate of) is a completely different comparison to that off Berserkers, who want to charge.

I personally run three plasma pistols in my henchmen squads...partially because I love to make use of the gunfighter rule.

Firstly, berzerkers are just fine, power-level-wise. No need to be hating. If you must hate, hate 6th ed, not berzerkers.

Anyways, the OP analysis is correct, but only in a world of perfect circumstances. There's risk/reward that's not being correctly accounted for.

As was mentioned, shooting and assault don't mix well, but especially not in this edition. In this edition, if you kill a model or two with your plasma pistols, you might well make that charge range 2-5" longer than you would have if you hadn't fired the plasma pistols. In a world of random charge ranges, that's suicide. In a squad without IoW, it's just crazy talk.

Because what do you gain if you kill a model or two with pistols, but then fail to make the charge? 40 points of upgrades do their job while 400 points of slathering chainsaw massacre is completely wasted. And even if you don't kill yourself out of assault range, what do you really gain? MEq and TEq are plenty handlable with that MASSIVE pile of WS5 chainsword attacks. You hardly need the plasma pistol's help. Likewise, you're not really gaining that much against vehicles, because odds are if you're in plasma pistol range, you're in assault range, and vehicles will go down to that MASSIVE pile of S5 attacks or krak grenades without much help from the pistols (all the worse because the front armor the pistols are shooting at is usually better than the rear armor of assault).

I'm wracking my brain for a single example (outside of pot-shotting fliers with 500 points of berzerkers...) of a situation where you'd lose without plasma pistols, but you'd win if you had them. They just don't add much to what you already have, and they don't allow you to tackle things that what you already have can't handle.

Very little reward here, and the potential for huge, gaping risk. And you have to pay through the nose for the pleasure.

I mean, I usually don't even bother firing bolt pistols before I charge in with berzerkers, and those things are free...

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, berzerkers are just fine, power-level-wise. No need to be hating. If you must hate, hate 6th ed, not berzerkers

No they're not. CSMs with CCWs and BPs are superior to Berzerkers in terms of bang for your buck, and with CSMs you can at least take meltaguns which are pretty useful.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, berzerkers are just fine, power-level-wise. No need to be hating. If you must hate, hate 6th ed, not berzerkers

No they're not. CSMs with CCWs and BPs are superior to Berzerkers in terms of bang for your buck, and with CSMs you can at least take meltaguns which are pretty useful.

Just saying, Ailaros has quite a bit of experience in making Berzerkers work in 6th edition against lists that aren't rubbish.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, berzerkers are just fine, power-level-wise. No need to be hating. If you must hate, hate 6th ed, not berzerkers

No they're not. CSMs with CCWs and BPs are superior to Berzerkers in terms of bang for your buck, and with CSMs you can at least take meltaguns which are pretty useful.

Just saying, Ailaros has quite a bit of experience in making Berzerkers work in 6th edition against lists that aren't rubbish.

And good on him for doing that, but in my opinion (and many other people's opinions) CSMs are better than Berzerkers.

BrotherOfBone wrote:No they're not. CSMs with CCWs and BPs are superior to Berzerkers in terms of bang for your buck

Hardly.

Berzerkers get WS5, S5 on the charge, +1A, cheaper IoW, and fearless. That's a lot.

Compare 10 CSM with CCW+BP against 7 berzerkers for the same price. On the charge, the CSM kill 1.2 TEq, 2.5 MEq and 8.8 GEq, while the berzerkers kill 2 TEq, 4.1 MEq, and 10.5 GEq. The berzerkers consistently outclass the CSM for the purpose that you're taking them. And that's before you consider fearless, which CSM need to waste their icon slot or a special character (and, as a result, points) to get.

And that's before you look outside of their anti-infantry killing power, like being better against vehicles, and monstrous creatures, and having more durability against some things, etc. etc. Berzerkers compared to MoK CSM is a closer run thing, but berzerkers are better - even for their cost - than naked CSM.

 Ailaros wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:No they're not. CSMs with CCWs and BPs are superior to Berzerkers in terms of bang for your buck

Hardly.

Berzerkers get WS5, S5 on the charge, +1A, cheaper IoW, and fearless. That's a lot.

Compare 10 CSM with CCW+BP against 7 berzerkers for the same price. On the charge, the CSM kill 1.2 TEq, 2.5 MEq and 8.8 GEq, while the berzerkers kill 2 TEq, 4.1 MEq, and 10.5 GEq. The berzerkers consistently outclass the CSM for the purpose that you're taking them. And that's before you consider fearless, which CSM need to waste their icon slot or a special character (and, as a result, points) to get.

And that's before you look outside of their anti-infantry killing power, like being better against vehicles, and monstrous creatures, and having more durability against some things, etc. etc. Berzerkers compared to MoK CSM is a closer run thing, but berzerkers are better - even for their cost - than naked CSM.

One thing you're not taking into account is the Chaos Lord tax. For Berzerkers to even be scoring, you need to take a MoK Lord or Kharn, whereas CSM are already troops and allow for more flexibility. This essentially makes Berzerkers a greater point investment and limits your list. Taking Berzerkers as elites seems like an exercise in futility.

A juggerlord tax doesn't really seem like a tax. It seems like taking one of the strongest units in the codex that's the most fluffy possible for this kind of list.

Berserkers are garbage.

Just compare them to plague marines as an example.

Berzerkers are supposed to be an elite assault unit, but what happens when they are in assault with plague marines?

Defensive grenades cancel rage, T5 negates furious charge, poisoned weapons mean rerolls to wound vs them, fnp, and plague marines can actually take guns...

With both units being troop choices in the same codex, I don't see any reason to take berzerkers unless your building a fluffy list.

Edit * and lets not forget that there isn't any good transport to get berzerkers into assault...

Prefer the other version of this thread tbh

Though would be keen on any way to make zerkers decent, since they make up like half the points of my CSM

 Dakkamite wrote:
Prefer the other version of this thread tbh

Though would be keen on any way to make zerkers decent, since they make up like half the points of my CSM

3 LR loaded with zerkers.
AoBF lord wit mobility of your chosing with spawns/raptors/warp talons. Can alternatively be with a TDA in one of the raiders.
Sorcerer with mobility of your chosing with spawns/raptors/warp talons. Can alternatively be with a TDA in one of the raiders.

Shove in opponent face, hoping he can't bring everything down before you make contact - wich would be very lucky considering what you're bringing. I'm not a very experienced player, but one thing I know is if you like something, bring 3 of them.

Only problem is 3 LR with zerkers is already 1500 points.

I alwayz take a plazma pistol on a company commander so that he's with plazma pistol and lazpistol. He looks badass! And i'd definitely give a stormtrooper sarge a plazmapistol but an elite slot is occupied with marbo.
But i'd go for melta over a plazma pistol all day long if the model has an option for it. If not - plazma pistols are not mandatory but helpful if you think u're gona have a chance to use it.

BarBoBot wrote:Defensive grenades cancel rage, T5 negates furious charge, poisoned weapons mean rerolls to wound vs them, fnp, and plague marines can actually take guns...

With both units being troop choices in the same codex, I don't see any reason to take berzerkers unless your building a fluffy list.

Yes, berzerkers are bad against plague marines, but berzerkers are better than plague marines against pretty much everything else.

 Ailaros wrote:

BarBoBot wrote:Defensive grenades cancel rage, T5 negates furious charge, poisoned weapons mean rerolls to wound vs them, fnp, and plague marines can actually take guns...

With both units being troop choices in the same codex, I don't see any reason to take berzerkers unless your building a fluffy list.

Yes, berzerkers are bad against plague marines, but berzerkers are better than plague marines against pretty much everything else.

And you just lost all credibility in here IMO.

My credibility has never mattered.

And berzerkers are better in close combat than plague marines against pretty much everything. The +T and FNP and defensive grenades aren't as good as the +S, +A, +I (relative), +WS, and + charge range of berzerkers.

 Ailaros wrote:
My credibility has never mattered.

And berzerkers are better in close combat than plague marines against pretty much everything. The +T and FNP and defensive grenades aren't as good as the +S, +A, +I (relative), +WS, and + charge range of berzerkers.

But your now reducing this vacuum by hilarious proportions. Neither unit, nor any other appears in hth. You bring valid info but lets be practical here too.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
My credibility has never mattered.

And berzerkers are better in close combat than plague marines against pretty much everything. The +T and FNP and defensive grenades aren't as good as the +S, +A, +I (relative), +WS, and + charge range of berzerkers.

But your now reducing this vacuum by hilarious proportions. Neither unit, nor any other appears in hth. You bring valid info but lets be practical here too.

I think it's fair to say that it was obvious that Ailaros was talking about the strength of the two units in close combat, not overall.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
My credibility has never mattered.

And berzerkers are better in close combat than plague marines against pretty much everything. The +T and FNP and defensive grenades aren't as good as the +S, +A, +I (relative), +WS, and + charge range of berzerkers.

But your now reducing this vacuum by hilarious proportions. Neither unit, nor any other appears in hth. You bring valid info but lets be practical here too.

I think it's fair to say that it was obvious that Ailaros was talking about the strength of the two units in close combat, not overall.

Which is an unfair stance, since PM are at least on par with KB against most units and in fact better against T6+ despite his narrow aand incorrect claims (see emphasis). MC'c are king now and I would not consider them rare by any means. Which makes his stats less accurate. Terminators are in fact more uncommon then MC's which PM are MUCH better at dealing with. This doesn't even begin to adress the fact that KB can't deal with range and PM can. Or the difference in durability.

I WISH WISH WISH KB were great. Heck I'd settle for decent. They aren't, so my 60 painted KB's are taken out for fluff only games.

Yes, berzerkers don't magically appear in close combat, but neither do plague marines. It's a control variable - that's why it was ignored.

And yeah, plague marines are better against most monstrous creatures, but not against all of them, and monstrous creatures are FAR from the only unit you're going to come across in any given game. Note as well that "pretty much everything" is able to encompass everything but a few units.

And I didn't say that berzerkers are better in general. We're talking about 6th ed after all. What I was reacting to was the person saying that berzerkers are worse than naked CSM, which they're not. And berzerkers, if you really build your list for them, ARE plenty decent. Run them in large squads and get some Huron infiltration going on and you can actually manage turn 1 or turn 2 charges. And most things are worse than berzerkers in close combat. Not perhaps dedicated anti-MEq squads like DCA blobs or against the super-tough stuff like land raiders or riptides (though I'd note that 15 un-upgraded berzerkers can reliably take off 2-3 wounds off of a riptide in a single turn after a round of pistol fire and a charge).

Just because they have hard counters and they can't beat the absolute best of the best doesn't mean they're worthless garbage, unable to even rise to the level of decent.

Plus, assuming that you can get either unit into a correct position to do its damage, there isn't a whole lot that plague marines can handle that berzerkers can't. Plague marines may be better in general, but not WAY, LOTS, INCONCEIVABLY better.

 Ailaros wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:No they're not. CSMs with CCWs and BPs are superior to Berzerkers in terms of bang for your buck

Hardly.

Berzerkers get WS5, S5 on the charge, +1A, cheaper IoW, and fearless. That's a lot.

Compare 10 CSM with CCW+BP against 7 berzerkers for the same price. On the charge, the CSM kill 1.2 TEq, 2.5 MEq and 8.8 GEq, while the berzerkers kill 2 TEq, 4.1 MEq, and 10.5 GEq. The berzerkers consistently outclass the CSM for the purpose that you're taking them. And that's before you consider fearless, which CSM need to waste their icon slot or a special character (and, as a result, points) to get.

And that's before you look outside of their anti-infantry killing power, like being better against vehicles, and monstrous creatures, and having more durability against some things, etc. etc. Berzerkers compared to MoK CSM is a closer run thing, but berzerkers are better - even for their cost - than naked CSM.

There's a discussion Here