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So with the imminent arrival of the new Knight in standard 40K brandishing a big gun and D weapon I think I'm going to throw in the towel.

It's been getting obscene with every codex getting some sort of 1 up more powerful gizmo designed to be better than or a counter for the previous thing (to an extent). From what I've seen the only balanced (I use the term loosely) codexes have been dark angels, and nids.

Chaos got the drake which started the ball rolling. Tau got the riptide that pretty much broke the game, then it all fell into disarray with Eldar getting mega buffs across the board, wraithknights and waveserpents. Space marines couldn't be left out in the cold so they got (I know it's old from previous editions) grav guns to help counter MCs and vehicle spam. Now the titans are making their way into 40k.

It's at this point I just give up. It's just not fun or funny anymore. It's basically geared towards 1 turn victory.

What happened to the days when you would field a small group of guys and try to overcome each other with some mediocum of skill?
You just wouldn't see hordes of Eldar serpents, or titans running a mock on every battlefield.

Does anyone else feel like 40k has just become an arms race?

Yes, thats why I play 500 points mostly.

Try playing Kill Team?

You're just not forging the narrative enough. You need to break out the beer and pretzels and play more cinematically. I can't keep a straight face saying that.

Yeah, its gone downhill pretty fast of late. Money money money money and all that. Sad really. Granted, the Knight is a great looking kit. Probably get one to decorate my shelf. When I get a shelf, that is.

Worth a shot I suppose. I don't have the rules for it.

How about you try talking to your oponent before a game and decide what kind of game and experience you want instead of bringing the baddest cheese net list to your LFGS looking for a "friendly" game.

AnabisXero wrote:
How about you try talking to your oponent before a game and decide what kind of game and experience you want instead of bringing the baddest cheese net list to your LFGS looking for a "friendly" game.

What if its his opponent bringing hard units/lists? What if those are the models he has? What is those are the models both people like?

Its all well and good to discuss things before, but its not always a perfect solution. Compromises need to be made, but its gets silly and not a little awkward telling your opponent not to use their favourite models, or vice versa.

*Edit* I guess worse case is they agree they just shouldn't play eachother, but I hardly call that a solution.

500 points fixes a lot of problems...

 Swastakowey wrote:
500 points fixes a lot of problems...

Yes, and the kill team option does look appealing.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
500 points fixes a lot of problems...

Yes, and the kill team option does look appealing.

The cool thing about kill team is you can come back next game with a force that benifitted from the last game much like a campaign too. If you like that sort of thing.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
500 points fixes a lot of problems...

Yes, and the kill team option does look appealing.

The cool thing about kill team is you can come back next game with a force that benifitted from the last game much like a campaign too. If you like that sort of thing.

Isn't that basically Necromunda?

Either way, I would give my left testicle for a re-booted Specialist Games.

But..but...you can't bring in your best possible stuff!

Seriously, 500/1000 point games change the tactics of the game quite a bit. Especially 500pts.

Is it just me or does anyone else hear "arse face" when listening to that song?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
But..but...you can't bring in your best possible stuff!

Seriously, 500/1000 point games change the tactics of the game quite a bit. Especially 500pts.

Well, yeah, and I imagine there are players out there who scoff at the idea of playing games that small, but different strokes and all that.

Granted, I scoff at people who play 2000+pts, so its all about perspective I guess.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
But..but...you can't bring in your best possible stuff!

Seriously, 500/1000 point games change the tactics of the game quite a bit. Especially 500pts.

Not wanting to sound rude...

But at 500 points theres no weapons of mass destruction, your troops carry a lot of the killing power, you actually have to move most your army, positioning matters, losing models that arent mega killing machines matters and thats what makes the game fun from a gameplay perspective.

You also have the fun of trying to make a good list and it stops being what do I take, and becomes what can I make do without?

Add that with decent terrain and decent players and the games become more balanced, fast, tactical and looks more like a game.

I love lower point games. I love when I can fit entire platoons of Guardsmen against an army of like 20 models. Makes my e-peen hard. Until they get swept by 3 marines because I couldn't make 2 leadership saves with a Commissar.

Boniface wrote:
So with the imminent arrival of the new Knight in standard 40K brandishing a big gun and D weapon I think I'm going to throw in the towel.

It's been getting obscene with every codex getting some sort of 1 up more powerful gizmo designed to be better than or a counter for the previous thing (to an extent). From what I've seen the only balanced (I use the term loosely) codexes have been dark angels, and nids.

Chaos got the drake which started the ball rolling. Tau got the riptide that pretty much broke the game, then it all fell into disarray with Eldar getting mega buffs across the board, wraithknights and waveserpents. Space marines couldn't be left out in the cold so they got (I know it's old from previous editions) grav guns to help counter MCs and vehicle spam. Now the titans are making their way into 40k.

It's at this point I just give up. It's just not fun or funny anymore. It's basically geared towards 1 turn victory.

What happened to the days when you would field a small group of guys and try to overcome each other with some mediocum of skill?
You just wouldn't see hordes of Eldar serpents, or titans running a mock on every battlefield.

Does anyone else feel like 40k has just become an arms race?

Mate, this isnt new.

the exact same threads about "broken things ruining the game" were written fifteen years ago when 40k third edition was a thing. you talk about the helldrake? meet the eldar starcannon of third edition. meet the alaitoc disruption table. meet crystal targetting matrices. meet ulthwe seer councils. meet third ed blood angels.

And it continues.

How about fourth edition? ever here of the abomination that was the Siren Prince, or else Iron Warriors?

Fifth edition - blood angels, space wolves and grey knights.

Sixth edition. tau and eldar.

Not being cheeky, but things that broke the game have always been there. you have not stumbled onto some hitherto unknown conspiracy, or failure that somehow slipped by the vigilance of the 40k community this is simply how GW writes games.

And there are solutions.

(1) treat all the new stuff as "options". GW give you the tools. You, the gamer have the choice to use them or not. play with a friend, and chat and decide what you want. Dont look to what GW does as a "how to" guide - dont look to GW to tell you how to play. - look at it as great models that you can do with as you wish. how about you take control? how about you decide? the best way to enjoy 40k is via a casual, co-operative and gentlemanly manner.
(2) play other games.
(3) grow older and bitter, consumed by hatred and rage,like many other 40k vets

This game started a maddening spiral of imbalance because CSM got helldrakes?

Umm...

 Swastakowey wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
But..but...you can't bring in your best possible stuff!

Seriously, 500/1000 point games change the tactics of the game quite a bit. Especially 500pts.

Not wanting to sound rude...

But at 500 points theres no weapons of mass destruction, your troops carry a lot of the killing power, you actually have to move most your army, positioning matters, losing models that arent mega killing machines matters and thats what makes the game fun from a gameplay perspective.

You also have the fun of trying to make a good list and it stops being what do I take, and becomes what can I make do without?

Add that with decent terrain and decent players and the games become more balanced, fast, tactical and looks more like a game.

That's what I meant......500-1000pt games are my favorite way to play 40K.

I have to agree smaller point games are a lot more fun.

AnabisXero wrote:
How about you try talking to your oponent before a game and decide what kind of game and experience you want instead of bringing the baddest cheese net list to your LFGS looking for a "friendly" game.

This. 40k still works as a beer and pretzels game, despite all the nerdrage about GW's use of the term.

Would work better as a B&P game if they fixed the damn rules though.

Small points is best points though. I think 1850 games are awful, too many toyz on the table and not enough vanilla (which you get at low points and double force org)

Kill Team is great too - definitely use the new rules over the old ones, still has a few derpy issues but much much better than before

Deadnight wrote:

Mate, this isnt new.

the exact same threads about "broken things ruining the game" were written fifteen years ago when 40k third edition was a thing. you talk about the helldrake? meet the eldar starcannon of third edition. meet the alaitoc disruption table. meet crystal targetting matrices. meet ulthwe seer councils. meet third ed blood angels.

And it continues.

How about fourth edition? ever here of the abomination that was the Siren Prince, or else Iron Warriors?

Fifth edition - blood angels, space wolves and grey knights.

Sixth edition. tau and eldar.

Not being cheeky, but things that broke the game have always been there. you have not stumbled onto some hitherto unknown conspiracy, or failure that somehow slipped by the vigilance of the 40k community this is simply how GW writes games.

And there are solutions.

(1) treat all the new stuff as "options". GW give you the tools. You, the gamer have the choice to use them or not. play with a friend, and chat and decide what you want. Dont look to what GW does as a "how to" guide - dont look to GW to tell you how to play. - look at it as great models that you can do with as you wish. how about you take control? how about you decide? the best way to enjoy 40k is via a casual, co-operative and gentlemanly manner.
(2) play other games.
(3) grow older and bitter, consumed by hatred and rage,like many other 40k vets

/slowclap

I came here to say this and found myself pleasantly surprised.

I vastly prefer smaller games too. Solves a lot of problems.

 Ailaros wrote:
This game started a maddening spiral of imbalance because CSM got helldrakes?

Umm...

Remember, this was the start of 6th Ed, when flyers were VERY new, and no one had a good way to deal with a Flyer that could spew out that 360 Baleflammer cannon, regenerate lost HP, had an invulnerable save, vector strike... yeah, that was pretty much the start of the Arms Race right there in 6th. 40K has always been about the latest and greatest codex.

I like the image of big things running rampant on the battlefield. What I don't like is how the rules set them up and how we, the players, unleash them on each other. I think the OP is right, and within a couple months, we'll see a Knight in every list that can take one.

Imagine this- Tau with a couple Riptides and a Knight or two. Oh, and your two units of Firewarriors of course, unless you are playing the Farsight Codex... then it'll be Riptides, Crisis Suits, and Knights. Or maybe you like Eldar? Couple Wraithknights, couple Knights, some Waveserpents with Dire Avengers being "heroically" led by a Farseer... It used to be looking at a table, you would see nothing but 50-100 1" bases, with maybe a couple 1.5" and a tank or two. Next month, it's going to be 10-20 1" bases, and nothing but huge bases.

Im liking my Games around 1250 personally with the odd game at 1750

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
But..but...you can't bring in your best possible stuff!

Seriously, 500/1000 point games change the tactics of the game quite a bit. Especially 500pts.

Not wanting to sound rude...

But at 500 points theres no weapons of mass destruction, your troops carry a lot of the killing power, you actually have to move most your army, positioning matters, losing models that arent mega killing machines matters and thats what makes the game fun from a gameplay perspective.

You also have the fun of trying to make a good list and it stops being what do I take, and becomes what can I make do without?

Add that with decent terrain and decent players and the games become more balanced, fast, tactical and looks more like a game.

That's what I meant......500-1000pt games are my favorite way to play 40K.

I see, sorry... lets pretend I just elaborated your point then haha.

The arms race problem is also solved by becoming friends with your local gamers and all of you agreeing on what's cool and what's not. Like, Revenant Titan...not cool.

Lately I am actually gearing up for some idiotically small games of 2nd edition 40K. Like >500pts. It's essentially Kill Team mixed with Necromunda.

But games of Combat Patrol are always fun, though the entire concept is maddening to most modern 40K gamers.

Don't know what people problem with knights are , High cost Battle cannon platforms and that is all .They do have D weapons , but those are melee and you need apo or escalation , on top of the high cost of the unit itself to use it . I doubt people will flock to buy it . Now if it shoting weapon had 2 big blast D str shots for less then 400pts , then yeah it would be a problem .

I think the best way to play the game is to stick to armies which are always at least good. Eldar were never bad or unplayable , SW were never bad or unplayable . Sure there are other armies that from edition to edition can be just as good. But those two are never bad . As long as someone sticks to those two , he will have a lot of fun with w40k .

I understand your frustration but you have to realize that some people like the big cool units, to collect and paint them. But this is 40k, you have to have rules for everything. You really expect to see everyone bringing these to random games? If you look through the IG rumors thread you'll see how many people wanted to have Knights. (Maybe GW listened to their fan base? or maybe finally trying to compete with Dream Forge's Leviathan which the knight looks a lot like?)

Not having a gaming group all I ever play are pick up games. I've never had somebody get mad when I say I don't play escalation. They will either say ok and not use their super heavies or look for a game somewhere else. Sides, at that points level you'll be able to kill it fairly easily. Looking at your pictures (which look very awesome btw) you play Tau. With the Knight's shield pointing toward your hammerheads/broadsides/riptides you deepstrike some squads of fusion suits to the side and blow'em up.

Long story short - Just say "No" to super heavies.