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SW in 5th were absolutely brutal. I'm very suspect of anyone who claims otherwise.

I think the game is embracing the non-competitive aspect these days.

GW has finally accepted that they aren't doing a good job of balancing the game. In turn, their solution is move toward the completely opposite end of the spectrum (queue music : Redfoo - Let's Get Ridiculous) - make the game as outrageous as the fluff, a total meat grinder.

We have choices:

- embrace the madness
- have gaming group/store play with limitations or house rules
- move on to another game system

Current rumours hold that FW and GW sites will be merging - this is pretty much the final step towards making FW official in 40k. I think GW has finally realized that there are too many types of hobbyists/players out there - trying to standardize gameplay is going to always rub some people the wrong way. Instead this new approach is to give us all the tools we could ever want and essentially build our own adventures from here.

Personally, I will be embracing the madness - for anyone interested in joining me, buying a knight is the first step to recovery

But marines are no where near the fluff. Where in the fluff does it say "Marines are the bitches of Tau and Eldar and Chaos Demons"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, right, GW's solution is for the other guy to self-nerf.

 gossipmeng wrote:
I think the game is embracing the non-competitive aspect these days.

GW has finally accepted that they aren't doing a good job of balancing the game. In turn, their solution is move toward the completely opposite end of the spectrum (queue music : Redfoo - Let's Get Ridiculous) - make the game as outrageous as the fluff, a total meat grinder.

We have choices:

- embrace the madness
- have gaming group/store play with limitations or house rules
- move on to another game system

Current rumours hold that FW and GW sites will be merging - this is pretty much the final step towards making FW official in 40k. I think GW has finally realized that there are too many types of hobbyists/players out there - trying to standardize gameplay is going to always rub some people the wrong way. Instead this new approach is to give us all the tools we could ever want and essentially build our own adventures from here.

Personally, I will be embracing the madness - for anyone interested in joining me, buying a knight is the first step to recovery

A solid core ruleset with balanced codexes and a variety of exciting optional rules providing for micro skirmish and super-large game styles supported by add-on unit types?

I can see exactly how everyone would hate that.

Sasori wrote:It's pretty clear you are the one that has the blinders on here, as you are just picking and choosing what facts you think are convenient. This is pretty much the normal course for your posts though, so I'm not surprised.

:blankstare:

... Ooookay, so let me try this again:

Right. Codex creep - the idea that all new codices are slightly more powerful than the last, has always been a lie.

Yes, we have tau and to a lesser extent, eldar, but we also have DA, CSM, SM, and Tyranid, and those are hardly overpowered armies rolling over everyone. It's pretty hard to make the case for some spiraling arms race.

Do you have any intention of addressing the point I was making, or were you just nit-picking and need to be put on my ignore list?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 gossipmeng wrote:
I think the game is embracing the non-competitive aspect these days.

GW has finally accepted that they aren't doing a good job of balancing the game. In turn, their solution is move toward the completely opposite end of the spectrum (queue music : Redfoo - Let's Get Ridiculous) - make the game as outrageous as the fluff, a total meat grinder.

We have choices:

- embrace the madness
- have gaming group/store play with limitations or house rules
- move on to another game system

Current rumours hold that FW and GW sites will be merging - this is pretty much the final step towards making FW official in 40k. I think GW has finally realized that there are too many types of hobbyists/players out there - trying to standardize gameplay is going to always rub some people the wrong way. Instead this new approach is to give us all the tools we could ever want and essentially build our own adventures from here.

Personally, I will be embracing the madness - for anyone interested in joining me, buying a knight is the first step to recovery

A solid core ruleset with balanced codexes and a variety of exciting optional rules providing for micro skirmish and super-large game styles supported by add-on unit types?

I can see exactly how everyone would hate that.

Totally. Who wants a game where you can take anything in your codex and stand a chance? It's much better to tell people they can't take so many riptides or deathstars.

JPong wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 gossipmeng wrote:
I think the game is embracing the non-competitive aspect these days.

GW has finally accepted that they aren't doing a good job of balancing the game. In turn, their solution is move toward the completely opposite end of the spectrum (queue music : Redfoo - Let's Get Ridiculous) - make the game as outrageous as the fluff, a total meat grinder.

We have choices:

- embrace the madness
- have gaming group/store play with limitations or house rules
- move on to another game system

Current rumours hold that FW and GW sites will be merging - this is pretty much the final step towards making FW official in 40k. I think GW has finally realized that there are too many types of hobbyists/players out there - trying to standardize gameplay is going to always rub some people the wrong way. Instead this new approach is to give us all the tools we could ever want and essentially build our own adventures from here.

Personally, I will be embracing the madness - for anyone interested in joining me, buying a knight is the first step to recovery

A solid core ruleset with balanced codexes and a variety of exciting optional rules providing for micro skirmish and super-large game styles supported by add-on unit types?

I can see exactly how everyone would hate that.

Totally. Who wants a game where you can take anything in your codex and stand a chance? It's much better to tell people they can't take so many riptides or deathstars.

It would be much better to have a company that gave a damn about having balanced rules instead of sticking their heads in the sand with this "forge the narrative" rubbish. Balance the codexes and stick the fringe "used to be in Epic not 40k" stuff and broken things like Allies into an optional (i.e. opponent's permission) ruleset (40k Advanced?) for narrative/campaign games only and keep that crap out of regular games.

I want to play a game in which any player can vom out a new super-unit with some kind of notional play balance, so what I would like a set of vehicle design rules.

Why can't GW do something like that?

They did. Back in Rogue Trader. The result was Landraiders, Rhino's, Dreadnaughts and even Landspeeders with Void Shields. It was a nightmare.

One of the most deadly models in the game at one point was a space marine skimmer made out of airfix spares and (I am not kidding) a roll on deodorant bottle. It even had rules and a "how too" guide published in White Dwarf.

I think it was one of Rick Priestly's creations.

The vehicle rules were really good for narrative scenarios and having a laugh over the gaming table with your mates. But in terms of creating a balanced gaming environment they were a bit of a nightmare.

JPong wrote:
Totally. Who wants a game where you can take anything in your codex and stand a chance? It's much better to tell people they can't take so many riptides or deathstars.

Except that they aren't arguing against that being better, they are arguing that this is the way it is and you can either complain/leave the game etc or roll with it. The fact someone is still having fun doesn't automatically mean they think balanced rule sets are stupid.

Martel732 wrote:
But marines are no where near the fluff. Where in the fluff does it say "Marines are the bitches of Tau and Eldar and Chaos Demons"

A marine chapter wiped out a nobody "made up to die" Craftworld and in retaliation Aliatoc wiped out that marine chapter with no indicator of even noticeable difficulty or casualties, so if Eldar players paint their guys blue is it appropriate?
Even assuming you wanted to model to fluff there are so many things out there in the 40k-verse that are far scarier than a marine, it's only the Imperium that thinks they are all that.
There are untold billions of Nids, should Gaunts be 1pt for 10? Fluff is fluff, rules are rules.

Yeah, they expect you to self nerf, they expect you to treat their game as a game between people aiming for mutual fun not a competitive sport because it's how *they* play and it's their game. I wonder if it's a cultural thing because GW has always had that very much old British attitude approach to the game and not the competitive one.

If you don't like what 40k is becoming/has become then *don't play it* vote with your feet and wallet. There are plenty of systems out there that actively want to cater to the competitive crowd that if thats the experience you are looking for would be happy for your patronage.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
I wonder if it's a cultural thing because GW has always had that very much old British attitude approach to the game and not the competitive one.

It's not a cultural thing, it's a quality thing. The problems that make 40k horrible as a competitive game don't make it a good "casual" game, they just make it a bad game in general. The issue is that GW doesn't care enough to invest the time and money required to make a good game, all that nonsense about "beer and pretzels" is just GW-supported masochism where people with lots of money invested in the game have to tell themselves that there's some redeeming quality to the mess and therefore they haven't wasted their money. Which works great for GW, because they can throw out garbage release after garbage release and their customers will rabidly praise its flaws as if they were virtues.

 Peregrine wrote:

It's not a cultural thing, it's a quality thing. The problems that make 40k horrible as a competitive game don't make it a good "casual" game, they just make it a bad game in general. The issue is that GW doesn't care enough to invest the time and money required to make a good game, all that nonsense about "beer and pretzels" is just GW-supported masochism where people with lots of money invested in the game have to tell themselves that there's some redeeming quality to the mess and therefore they haven't wasted their money. Which works great for GW, because they can throw out garbage release after garbage release and their customers will rabidly praise its flaws as if they were virtues.

So everyone still enjoying 40k is a masochist lying to themselves about it's redeeming qualities which according to you it doesn't have?

Yeah, I don't think you need me to point out how much of a massive generalization powered by your own bias that is. You don't like the game, we get it, but a lot of us are still having great fun.
If I'm having fun playing it then to me it's a good game, see above for whether that's true or not. If to make a game balanced it has to be like Warmahordes or Magic (which I often see people touting as *balanced*) you can keep it, I found those games boring beyond belief.
The reason I say cultural thing is that a lot of the Brits I play with are treating it like a game, with the aim for both players to have fun whereas a lot of the people who want to play to produce a winner seem to have other flags by their names, it's just an observation of course.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
So everyone still enjoying 40k is a masochist lying to themselves about it's redeeming qualities which according to you it doesn't have?

No, the masochists are the people who act like 40k is a great game because it has horrible balance and broken rules. You know, people like you, who talk about how "casual" the game is and how competitive players are playing the wrong game. Someone who enjoys the fluff/models and has fun despite the awful rules is just an average player.

If to make a game balanced it has to be like Warmahordes or Magic (which I often see people touting as *balanced*) you can keep it, I found those games boring beyond belief.

Yeah, how boring it must be to have lots of viable strategies and be able to show up to a random pickup game and have a fair and enjoyable experience without having to spend an hour negotiating about which overpowered stuff should be allowed.

The reason I say cultural thing is that a lot of the Brits I play with are treating it like a game, with the aim for both players to have fun whereas a lot of the people who want to play to produce a winner seem to have other flags by their names, it's just an observation of course.

No, you're just missing the point. Once again, the problems with 40k that make it a bad competitive game don't make it a better game for playing the game with your "British" attitude of "just have fun". They make it a worse game for that as well as a worse game for competitive play. And they come from GW's laziness and incompetence, not a decision to make a great "casual" game even at the expense of competitive play.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

It's not a cultural thing, it's a quality thing. The problems that make 40k horrible as a competitive game don't make it a good "casual" game, they just make it a bad game in general. The issue is that GW doesn't care enough to invest the time and money required to make a good game, all that nonsense about "beer and pretzels" is just GW-supported masochism where people with lots of money invested in the game have to tell themselves that there's some redeeming quality to the mess and therefore they haven't wasted their money. Which works great for GW, because they can throw out garbage release after garbage release and their customers will rabidly praise its flaws as if they were virtues.

So everyone still enjoying 40k is a masochist lying to themselves about it's redeeming qualities which according to you it doesn't have?

Yeah, I don't think you need me to point out how much of a massive generalization powered by your own bias that is. You don't like the game, we get it, but a lot of us are still having great fun.
If I'm having fun playing it then to me it's a good game, see above for whether that's true or not. If to make a game balanced it has to be like Warmahordes or Magic (which I often see people touting as *balanced*) you can keep it, I found those games boring beyond belief.
The reason I say cultural thing is that a lot of the Brits I play with are treating it like a game, with the aim for both players to have fun whereas a lot of the people who want to play to produce a winner seem to have other flags by their names, it's just an observation of course.

I wouldn't say a lot are having fun playing it.... The huge vast majority are having fun playing. Because its a fun game, Compromise what you want from the game with your friend (as you do with all games, because all games are dependent on the opponent. Thats why elite sports teams that play at the Olympics don't play against school kids) and there is very little to complain about. I agree, I dont like war machine and so forth, I think it looks awful and so forth. What people like pregeriinn need to realize is that nobody cares what they want because they are a tiny minority. Almost all GW players like the game and buy all the latest products and so on even if they arent 100% happy with the product, (which is impossible, there is always something to improve).

I havent noticed the culture thing yet, but now you mentioned it ill keep a look out.

 Peregrine wrote:


No, the masochists are the people who act like 40k is a great game because it has horrible balance and broken rules. You know, people like you, who talk about how "casual" the game is and how competitive players are playing the wrong game. Someone who enjoys the fluff/models and has fun despite the awful rules is just an average player.

Lets cover how many things i consider wrong with this comment:

1. "No, the masochists are the people who act like 40k is a great game because it has horrible balance and broken rules"
No-ones doing that, no-one is saying "this games rules are broken, that makes it great" They are saying they like the rules you hate and so are having fun, your opinion is not fact. This is a strawman we see used time and again despite no-one ever saying it. Show me somewhere I have claimed bad rules make a good game, rules you don't like sure, but bad ones?

2. who talk about how "casual" the game is and how competitive players are playing the wrong game
If you aren't having fun and don't find the rules suit the way you want the game to play then you *are* playing the wrong game, casual/tourney/pew pew mini thrower. The vast majority of people complaining about the rules seem to be tourney style players however so it would seem 40k is not what they want in a game.

3.Someone who enjoys the fluff/models and has fun despite the awful rules is just an average player.
So, someone who chooses not to play tourney 40k is a statement on the quality of their ability to play the game? Hardly, just as not all tourney players are grand masters of strategy not all casual players are merely average at best.
That or by average player you mean "the vast majority of" in which case you are claiming most people find the rules to be bad but play regardless, also a sweeping generalization where you attribute your own opinion to the nameless masses.

Yeah, how boring it must be to have lots of viable strategies and be able to show up to a random pickup game and have a fair and enjoyable experience without having to spend an hour negotiating about which overpowered stuff should be allowed.

Yes, I'd rather have teeth pulled than pay those games. If it takes you an hour to negotiate a reasonable, balanced game, where both players have fun I truly have no idea what you are doing. We'd have written a whole custom scenario and played the first turn in that time.

No, you're just missing the point. Once again, the problems with 40k that make it a bad competitive game don't make it a better game for playing the game with your "British" attitude of "just have fun". They make it a worse game for that as well as a worse game for competitive play. And they come from GW's laziness and incompetence, not a decision to make a great "casual" game even at the expense of competitive play.

Rewording the same strawman from the top doesn't make it any less a strawman. Show us these mythical champions of bad rules.

Having just come back to the hobby this year after a 10 year vacation, I for one found myself pretty overwhelmed. I had the benefit of having models/materials/some previous knowledge of the game before hand. I cannot imagine a new player starting 40K if they knew what they were getting themselves into. Lets assume you want to play a army that is not included in starter set:

New rulebook - $75.00 to $80.00
Codex - $30.00 to $50.00
Paint/Glue/Other Assembly materials (Assuming you want above tabletop quality models) - Anywhere from $50.00 - $300.00 depending on brand, quality, used etc
Dice/Templates etc - $10.00 - $30.00

You haven't even bought models yet, the most expensive part which even at 500-1000pts, your looking at several hundred dollars. Then there is supplements, escalation, stronghold assault, dataslates, Forgeworld products....yeah. I'm all for people being invested in a hobby, but we are talking about the potential growth & eventual survival of the hobby here. Most of the new faces I see are returning players, not new customers. The price point for entry into this hobby is going from very difficult to impossible. Even if finances aren't a obstacles, attempting to learn & retain all the different rules currently available is next to impossible. GW needs to consolidate all of the rules out there into fewer source materials. A new player entering the game shouldn't require more than rulebook, codex, & 1 other material at most.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Having just come back to the hobby this year after a 10 year vacation, I for one found myself pretty overwhelmed. I had the benefit of having models/materials/some previous knowledge of the game before hand. I cannot imagine a new player starting 40K if they knew what they were getting themselves into. Lets assume you want to play a army that is not included in starter set:

New rulebook - $75.00 to $80.00 (Or get a used small one from the DV set from E-bay)
Codex - $30.00 to $50.00 (Yeah, they are getting too expensive.)
Paint/Glue/Other Assembly materials (Assuming you want above tabletop quality models) - Anywhere from $50.00 - $300.00 depending on brand, quality, used etc ($300 for paints and brushes? I was an art major and I've never paid near that much. We're talking about a beginner here, right? He'll get enough paints to paint his simplified color scheme.)
Dice/Templates etc - $10.00 - $30.00 ($8 for a bunch of dice. Probably find templates used for cheap on E-bay as well.)

You haven't even bought models yet, the most expensive part which even at 500-1000pts, your looking at several hundred dollars. Then there is supplements, escalation, stronghold assault, dataslates, Forgeworld products....yeah. I'm all for people being invested in a hobby, but we are talking about the potential growth & eventual survival of the hobby here. Most of the new faces I see are returning players, not new customers. The price point for entry into this hobby is going from very difficult to impossible. Even if finances aren't a obstacles, attempting to learn & retain all the different rules currently available is next to impossible. GW needs to consolidate all of the rules out there into fewer source materials. A new player entering the game shouldn't require more than rulebook, codex, & 1 other material at most.

Buy a battle force and an HQ and you're good for small battles to start learning. Maybe $200. Slowly over time buy a box or figure here and there and after a while you'll have a good army. It'll take time but that's how most people do it. Jumping into a hobby this big does take some homework. I'd rather have it like that than something dumbed down like 4ed D&D. (Not saying the rules aren't needlessly complex at times or could use some re-working, just want to say that changing it to the other extreme is bad. Also, no one's forcing anyone to play escelation, stronghold or whatever. You don't want to play them, then don't. It's a game, not conscription.

 Swastakowey wrote:


I wouldn't say a lot are having fun playing it.... The huge vast majority are having fun playing.

What people like pregeriinn need to realize is that nobody cares what they want because they are a tiny minority. Almost all GW players like the game and buy all the latest products and so on even if they arent 100% happy with the product, (which is impossible, there is always something to improve).

You have no more basis in saying this than myself claiming that everyone hates the game and plays it only because its the most readily available game.

Don't confuse your anecdotal evidence and personal views with facts. You don't know if its a tiny minority who want a better game. You don't know its a huge vast majority who are having fun. You haven't even taken into consideration the people who may have left the game or have also started other games.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

So everyone still enjoying 40k is a masochist lying to themselves about it's redeeming qualities which according to you it doesn't have?

are you having fun because of the 40k rules, or in spite of them? because lets face it, 40ks rules are a mess. they're clunky, excessive, bloated, poorly written, vague and "loose" in a lot of ways. 40k doesnt need to be "this". and it would still be 40k. i keep remembering andy chambers' starship troopers game, which was meant to be 4th ed 40k. the game was flawed in a few ways, but it was a decade ahead of its time in a lot of ways, and i feel it was a lost opportunity that 40k did not walk this path. it would have still been 40k, but a mechanically better monster!

or are you having fun because you are spending quality time with your friends, in an (arguably... but that's another debate!) engrossing universe?

In my experience, i've often found that a lot of the folks that play 40k, and continue to play 40k seem to like the idea of 40k more so than the actual realitiy of it. Most seem to live in hope that things "will", or "could" be better. Some day. hey, thats what wishlists are for!

I've got nothing against casual gaming. I do plenty. my friday nights are my "casual" game nights, with narrative/story based scenarios at the fore, and mere lip service to "playing exactly by the rules". Typically, its flames of war, infinity, or more recently, historicals (dux bellorum - really nice rules set by the way). 40k should be a good casual game. its what the designers want it to be. Game design, and game theory is actually something i'm quite interested in, and reading between the lines, i think GW have shifted from a previous strategy of "sandbox rules set that is open to the whole community" ie a game that appeals to all facets of the gaming community (its got tanks, planes, cc, shooting, big things, small things, competitive, casual etc. find like minded people and take what you want from it). However, i dont think this strategy worked as well as they wanted. i think having a target audience is what they're aiming for instead.i think GW are trying to drag 40k, and the 40k playing community (still kicking and screaming every step of the way too) to a "new place" where its all about casual, two friends having a polite chat, and one where those playing are those that are happy, comfortable and accepting of the need to self police, self regulate, and self organise. Balance has gone out the window. GW are, more and more, chucking things out to the community. knights. superheavies. there is no "format". the directive seems to have been to throw out "cool stuff" and almost force people along to this "new place".some people are appalled. Some are quite happy with this approach. its the latter that is the target customer, and who GW wants if you ask me.

And fair play. my issue is not with the ideology. surprisingly, im rather sympathetic to GW in a lot of ways as to what they want their game to be. Im far less sympathetic in how they go about doing it.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Having just come back to the hobby this year after a 10 year vacation, I for one found myself pretty overwhelmed. I had the benefit of having models/materials/some previous knowledge of the game before hand. I cannot imagine a new player starting 40K if they knew what they were getting themselves into. Lets assume you want to play a army that is not included in starter set:

New rulebook - $75.00 to $80.00 (Or get a used small one from the DV set from E-bay)
Codex - $30.00 to $50.00 (Yeah, they are getting too expensive.)
Paint/Glue/Other Assembly materials (Assuming you want above tabletop quality models) - Anywhere from $50.00 - $300.00 depending on brand, quality, used etc ($300 for paints and brushes? I was an art major and I've never paid near that much. We're talking about a beginner here, right? He'll get enough paints to paint his simplified color scheme.)
Dice/Templates etc - $10.00 - $30.00 ($8 for a bunch of dice. Probably find templates used for cheap on E-bay as well.)

You haven't even bought models yet, the most expensive part which even at 500-1000pts, your looking at several hundred dollars. Then there is supplements, escalation, stronghold assault, dataslates, Forgeworld products....yeah. I'm all for people being invested in a hobby, but we are talking about the potential growth & eventual survival of the hobby here. Most of the new faces I see are returning players, not new customers. The price point for entry into this hobby is going from very difficult to impossible. Even if finances aren't a obstacles, attempting to learn & retain all the different rules currently available is next to impossible. GW needs to consolidate all of the rules out there into fewer source materials. A new player entering the game shouldn't require more than rulebook, codex, & 1 other material at most.

Buy a battle force and an HQ and you're good for small battles to start learning. Maybe $200. Slowly over time buy a box or figure here and there and after a while you'll have a good army. It'll take time but that's how most people do it. Jumping into a hobby this big does take some homework. I'd rather have it like that than something dumbed down like 4ed D&D. (Not saying the rules aren't needlessly complex at times or could use some re-working, just want to say that changing it to the other extreme is bad. Also, no one's forcing anyone to play escelation, stronghold or whatever. You don't want to play them, then don't. It's a game, not conscription.

Is a battle box plus hq 500 points or more? If not then it's not a "real" army and you'd be hard pressed to find opponents willing to play trivial demo games.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Having just come back to the hobby this year after a 10 year vacation, I for one found myself pretty overwhelmed. I had the benefit of having models/materials/some previous knowledge of the game before hand. I cannot imagine a new player starting 40K if they knew what they were getting themselves into. Lets assume you want to play a army that is not included in starter set:

New rulebook - $75.00 to $80.00 (Or get a used small one from the DV set from E-bay)
Codex - $30.00 to $50.00 (Yeah, they are getting too expensive.)
Paint/Glue/Other Assembly materials (Assuming you want above tabletop quality models) - Anywhere from $50.00 - $300.00 depending on brand, quality, used etc ($300 for paints and brushes? I was an art major and I've never paid near that much. We're talking about a beginner here, right? He'll get enough paints to paint his simplified color scheme.)
Dice/Templates etc - $10.00 - $30.00 ($8 for a bunch of dice. Probably find templates used for cheap on E-bay as well.)

You haven't even bought models yet, the most expensive part which even at 500-1000pts, your looking at several hundred dollars. Then there is supplements, escalation, stronghold assault, dataslates, Forgeworld products....yeah. I'm all for people being invested in a hobby, but we are talking about the potential growth & eventual survival of the hobby here. Most of the new faces I see are returning players, not new customers. The price point for entry into this hobby is going from very difficult to impossible. Even if finances aren't a obstacles, attempting to learn & retain all the different rules currently available is next to impossible. GW needs to consolidate all of the rules out there into fewer source materials. A new player entering the game shouldn't require more than rulebook, codex, & 1 other material at most.

Buy a battle force and an HQ and you're good for small battles to start learning. Maybe $200. Slowly over time buy a box or figure here and there and after a while you'll have a good army. It'll take time but that's how most people do it. Jumping into a hobby this big does take some homework. I'd rather have it like that than something dumbed down like 4ed D&D. (Not saying the rules aren't needlessly complex at times or could use some re-working, just want to say that changing it to the other extreme is bad. Also, no one's forcing anyone to play escelation, stronghold or whatever. You don't want to play them, then don't. It's a game, not conscription.

Is a battle box plus hq 500 points or more? If not then it's not a "real" army and you'd be hard pressed to find opponents willing to play trivial demo games.

I was $25 bucks off but it does come with an HQ. But that looks about 500 points. This is the strike force box set.

The marines alone with no equipment come to roughly 500 pts - add the dread, drop pod, razorback, and all the equipment - it hits 750 easily.

Deadnight wrote:

are you having fun because of the 40k rules, or in spite of them? because lets face it, 40ks rules are a mess. they're clunky, excessive, bloated, poorly written, vague and "loose" in a lot of ways. 40k doesnt need to be "this". and it would still be 40k.

I like 40k's rules, now this isn't to say there aren't a few I dislike or in the case of the missions have tweaked (or let others tweak in the case of the great BAO missions) but I like the way the game plays. The main issue I have with the rules is usually one one or both of use remembers a previous edition that did it different and thats not the games fault but more a problem with our ageing minds
Then we have to stop and double check, the rest of the time things flow or can be reasoned out pretty easily.

I miss the days of 2nd Ed but I can also see that many of those extra layers of complication would slow down the game now that it has evolved to cater to larger scale battle and I could easily play a smaller game of 2nd Ed or Necromunda if I missed them that much.

or are you having fun because you are spending quality time with your friends, in an (arguably... but that's another debate!) engrossing universe?

Playing with the right people is important, as with any game but the game still takes centre stage, pitting your wits against your opponent, setting up your contingencies for when lady luck shines or kicks you in the nuts. I like the armies and how they interact, they feel nicely themed to me each sitting in their own niche. I really like where 6th edition has gone.

I don't want to quote the next para as it's pretty big but I agree with almost everything you say in it, one thing I will say is that what you call the "New place" I don't think it's new. I think this has always been 40k's model. They dipped their toes into the competitive water previously but I don't think they liked it. Increasingly today we see things that were previously the domain of fun having people trying to push them to a competitive place, I'm just glad GW isn't doing the same, I don't want their focus to be on tourney play because that's not how I want to play my games.
D strength is I think the best example for me. Now I find them way too good for their points which means if you want to balance your army with them against the enemy it's that much more work. *However* they do work as an example of the awesome power of a weapon big enough to shoot Land Raiders at people would posses, so I can see why they that them, Titans and the like are part of the world they are setting the game in.

Yes, it means tourney play suffers but that's how they want their game to be. It's not to say you can't play 40k competitively but to my mind it's not the intended purpose of it so you have to work out your own mods to make it so. If you won't do so it's not lazyness on the part of GW any more than me wanting to play scenarios in something like Magic. It's not designed for it so *I* have to put in the work but I can still do it.

Also thank you Dead, that was a really nice, thought provoking post.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:
So everyone still enjoying 40k is a masochist lying to themselves about it's redeeming qualities which according to you it doesn't have?

No, the masochists are the people who act like 40k is a great game because it has horrible balance and broken rules. You know, people like you, who talk about how "casual" the game is and how competitive players are playing the wrong game. Someone who enjoys the fluff/models and has fun despite the awful rules is just an average player.

I think the real masochists in this hobby are the jaded and bitter 'veterans' that jump on every opportunity to repeat their tired opinion on why they hate this game so much, yet stick around like stubborn mules and refuse to move on.

IF GW is causing you so much grief and you cannot accept what it is/what it has become, or where it is headed yet sit around continuing to complain about it- you are truly a masochist. Why continue to involve yourself in something that is seemingly joyless and no longer rewarding for you?

We get it. A lot of people are overly vocal about their distaste with GW's direction with the game. And quite honestly most of the time we agree with you. Here is the kicker though- it's just a game. You either find ways to enjoy it, or you move on.

When you purchase a PC game, for example, and discover the developer patches the game and modifies the core to the point you dislike it/future patches continue to do this, do you still play the game? Why are so many people that have played this game so long completely delusional? GW has always been this way. The game has always been broken, and jumping into General Discussion forum posts to constantly repeat yourself about 'why this game sucks' whenever any discussion hints on anything related to GW rules is accomplishing nothing for you or anyone else.

Find a new hobby- seriously.

I love profanity in the title of a thread. It really supports the OP's argument in a careful, erudite manner, and in no way makes me think they are whiners unfit to play with toy soldiers.

 Frazzled wrote:
I love profanity in the title of a thread. It really supports the OP's argument in a careful, erudite manner, and in no way makes me think they are whiners unfit to play with toy soldiers.

I would not call "god damn" profanity. This isn't the 1800s.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:
So everyone still enjoying 40k is a masochist lying to themselves about it's redeeming qualities which according to you it doesn't have?

No, the masochists are the people who act like 40k is a great game because it has horrible balance and broken rules. You know, people like you, who talk about how "casual" the game is and how competitive players are playing the wrong game. Someone who enjoys the fluff/models and has fun despite the awful rules is just an average player.

I think the real masochists in this hobby are the jaded and bitter 'veterans' that jump on every opportunity to repeat their tired opinion on why they hate this game so much, yet stick around like stubborn mules and refuse to move on.

IF GW is causing you so much grief and you cannot accept what it is/what it has become, or where it is headed yet sit around continuing to complain about it- you are truly a masochist. Why continue to involve yourself in something that is seemingly joyless and no longer rewarding for you?

We get it. A lot of people are overly vocal about their distaste with GW's direction with the game. And quite honestly most of the time we agree with you. Here is the kicker though- it's just a game. You either find ways to enjoy it, or you move on.

When you purchase a PC game, for example, and discover the developer patches the game and modifies the core to the point you dislike it/future patches continue to do this, do you still play the game? Why are so many people that have played this game so long completely delusional? GW has always been this way. The game has always been broken, and jumping into General Discussion forum posts to constantly repeat yourself about 'why this game sucks' whenever any discussion hints on anything related to GW rules is accomplishing nothing for you or anyone else.

Find a new hobby- seriously.

It's more that these people like/love the game, but want it to be the best it can be so more people can enjoy the game. These are people who want the game to spread, not be marginalized into an ever smaller niche.

People give their opinions on patches to computer games that fundamentally change them, for better or worse. Just look at the WoW forums for example. So I don't really see how that supports your argument.

JPong wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:
So everyone still enjoying 40k is a masochist lying to themselves about it's redeeming qualities which according to you it doesn't have?

No, the masochists are the people who act like 40k is a great game because it has horrible balance and broken rules. You know, people like you, who talk about how "casual" the game is and how competitive players are playing the wrong game. Someone who enjoys the fluff/models and has fun despite the awful rules is just an average player.

I think the real masochists in this hobby are the jaded and bitter 'veterans' that jump on every opportunity to repeat their tired opinion on why they hate this game so much, yet stick around like stubborn mules and refuse to move on.

IF GW is causing you so much grief and you cannot accept what it is/what it has become, or where it is headed yet sit around continuing to complain about it- you are truly a masochist. Why continue to involve yourself in something that is seemingly joyless and no longer rewarding for you?

We get it. A lot of people are overly vocal about their distaste with GW's direction with the game. And quite honestly most of the time we agree with you. Here is the kicker though- it's just a game. You either find ways to enjoy it, or you move on.

When you purchase a PC game, for example, and discover the developer patches the game and modifies the core to the point you dislike it/future patches continue to do this, do you still play the game? Why are so many people that have played this game so long completely delusional? GW has always been this way. The game has always been broken, and jumping into General Discussion forum posts to constantly repeat yourself about 'why this game sucks' whenever any discussion hints on anything related to GW rules is accomplishing nothing for you or anyone else.

Find a new hobby- seriously.

It's more that these people like/love the game, but want it to be the best it can be so more people can enjoy the game. These are people who want the game to spread, not be marginalized into an ever smaller niche.

People give their opinions on patches to computer games that fundamentally change them, for better or worse. Just look at the WoW forums for example. So I don't really see how that supports your argument.

There is nothing wrong with wanting something to be the best it can be- the issue with this argument is GW does not design the game to fit your specific idea or concept of what that is, nor should they. It's stubbornness, pure and simple. I am not excusing GW for their business practices or forgiving them for any transgressions they have caused- I just don't care. I enjoy the game for what it is, and find ways to increase my enjoyment. If I didn't find any enjoyment in the game or was so bothered by a companies direction for a product, I would leave and find an alternative- hell, you can use your GW minis to play other tabletop games.

My issue is with the people that literally do nothing positive for this hobby. They don't comment on anything that is innately productive, and repeat themselves given any opportunity- and it's always the same people too, like clockwork.

Regarding the PC game example, a lot of people follow similar trends- they just spew anonymous negativity into forums to show their distaste in a game/company, but continue to play the game regardless.

It just doesn't make sense to me. Common sense suggests that things we don't enjoy we stay away from/find alternatives.

Perhaps I am in the minority.

XenosTerminus wrote:

JPong wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:
So everyone still enjoying 40k is a masochist lying to themselves about it's redeeming qualities which according to you it doesn't have?

No, the masochists are the people who act like 40k is a great game because it has horrible balance and broken rules. You know, people like you, who talk about how "casual" the game is and how competitive players are playing the wrong game. Someone who enjoys the fluff/models and has fun despite the awful rules is just an average player.

I think the real masochists in this hobby are the jaded and bitter 'veterans' that jump on every opportunity to repeat their tired opinion on why they hate this game so much, yet stick around like stubborn mules and refuse to move on.

IF GW is causing you so much grief and you cannot accept what it is/what it has become, or where it is headed yet sit around continuing to complain about it- you are truly a masochist. Why continue to involve yourself in something that is seemingly joyless and no longer rewarding for you?

We get it. A lot of people are overly vocal about their distaste with GW's direction with the game. And quite honestly most of the time we agree with you. Here is the kicker though- it's just a game. You either find ways to enjoy it, or you move on.

When you purchase a PC game, for example, and discover the developer patches the game and modifies the core to the point you dislike it/future patches continue to do this, do you still play the game? Why are so many people that have played this game so long completely delusional? GW has always been this way. The game has always been broken, and jumping into General Discussion forum posts to constantly repeat yourself about 'why this game sucks' whenever any discussion hints on anything related to GW rules is accomplishing nothing for you or anyone else.

Find a new hobby- seriously.

It's more that these people like/love the game, but want it to be the best it can be so more people can enjoy the game. These are people who want the game to spread, not be marginalized into an ever smaller niche.

People give their opinions on patches to computer games that fundamentally change them, for better or worse. Just look at the WoW forums for example. So I don't really see how that supports your argument.

There is nothing wrong with wanting something to be the best it can be- the issue with this argument is GW does not design the game to fit your specific idea or concept of what that is, nor should they. It's stubbornness, pure and simple. I am not excusing GW for their business practices or forgiving them for any transgressions they have caused- I just don't care. I enjoy the game for what it is, and find ways to increase my enjoyment. If I didn't find any enjoyment in the game or was so bothered by a companies direction for a product, I would leave and find an alternative- hell, you can use your GW minis to play other tabletop games.

My issue is with the people that literally do nothing positive for this hobby. They don't comment on anything that is innately productive, and repeat themselves given any opportunity- and it's always the same people too, like clockwork.

Regarding the PC game example, a lot of people follow similar trends- they just spew anonymous negativity into forums to show their distaste in a game/company, but continue to play the game regardless.

It just doesn't make sense to me. Common sense suggests that things we don't enjoy we stay away from/find alternatives.

Perhaps I am in the minority.

Except it's not that simple. For one, people might be enjoying parts of it, they just don't post online about those parts. Using it as an excuse to hang out with friends can be fun, but then you're enjoying in spite of the game instead of because of it. Also you may enjoy the hobby aspect and WANT the game to be better so you can enjoy that too. Also you may be heavily invested in it and yet be disenchanted with the game, in some ways it's easier to just give up a video game when it starts to annoy you, it can be harder to give up a table top game you have invested thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in.

XenosTerminus wrote:
There is nothing wrong with wanting something to be the best it can be- the issue with this argument is GW does not design the game to fit your specific idea or concept of what that is, nor should they. It's stubbornness, pure and simple. I am not excusing GW for their business practices or forgiving them for any transgressions they have caused- I just don't care. I enjoy the game for what it is, and find ways to increase my enjoyment. If I didn't find any enjoyment in the game or was so bothered by a companies direction for a product, I would leave and find an alternative- hell, you can use your GW minis to play other tabletop games.

My issue is with the people that literally do nothing positive for this hobby. They don't comment on anything that is innately productive, and repeat themselves given any opportunity- and it's always the same people too, like clockwork.

Regarding the PC game example, a lot of people follow similar trends- they just spew anonymous negativity into forums to show their distaste in a game/company, but continue to play the game regardless.

It just doesn't make sense to me. Common sense suggests that things we don't enjoy we stay away from/find alternatives.

Perhaps I am in the minority.

So if these mythical people you are accusing of doing "nothing positive for this hobby", cause you to not get enjoyment out of the forums, take your own advice and leave.

You are accusing some of the most active, helpful and friendly people on this forum of not contributing anything to the hobby. You are using the same argument as the "entitled gamer" argument which is BS through and through. Gamers, and consumers in general, can and should be asking, no demanding, the best product they can get. That's how capitalism works.

You see negativity, I see criticism. And no one is above criticism.