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"If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land ....... or within 1" of an enemy model, "

"If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

Uptopdownunder, the skimmer is not "in play" until after you fully resolve the Deep Strike, including Mishaps. Until the Mishap is resolved, the "vehicle" is nothing more than a marker.

 Happyjew wrote:
Uptopdownunder, the skimmer is not "in play" until after you fully resolve the Deep Strike, including Mishaps. Until the Mishap is resolved, the "vehicle" is nothing more than a marker.

I really don't subscribe to that notion as there is no concrete evidence to support it, it is an abstract concept which, while I can understand the rationale behind, I do not believe that this rules set is written in a manner that requires such notions to be considered.

It is not a marker "First, place one model from the unit" it is a model from the unit.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Uptopdownunder, the skimmer is not "in play" until after you fully resolve the Deep Strike, including Mishaps. Until the Mishap is resolved, the "vehicle" is nothing more than a marker.

I really don't subscribe to that notion as there is no concrete evidence to support it, it is an abstract concept which, while I can understand the rationale behind, I do not believe that this rules set is written in a manner that requires such notions to be considered.

It is not a marker "First, place one model from the unit" it is a model from the unit.

I'll give you that. However, even then, the model does not finish its move until after fully resolving the Deep Strike, which includes the Mishap.

 Happyjew wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Uptopdownunder, the skimmer is not "in play" until after you fully resolve the Deep Strike, including Mishaps. Until the Mishap is resolved, the "vehicle" is nothing more than a marker.

I really don't subscribe to that notion as there is no concrete evidence to support it, it is an abstract concept which, while I can understand the rationale behind, I do not believe that this rules set is written in a manner that requires such notions to be considered.

It is not a marker "First, place one model from the unit" it is a model from the unit.

I'll give you that. However, even then, the model does not finish its move until after fully resolving the Deep Strike, which includes the Mishap.

I don't agree.

The requirement to mishap is being unable to deploy.

As the base of a skimmer is ignored for all purposes except assaults and rams and skimmers have a specific permission to be over units, there is nothing stopping the skimmer being deployed.

Once in this position the skimmer is then moved away, as per the requirements of it's rule.

There is nothing that requires that to be a 2 stage process, in fact it is impossible to be so as, other than Dynamo, I don't know of anyone who can balance a Monolith on top of a Wraithknight.

Uptopdownunder,
I have reread what you posted and see it is because I misread what you stated that I didn't understand your point. The post I replied to read as if you where stating that skimmers have permission to end their move over top of enemy units, not that they have permission to relocate if their movement ends with them over top of an enemy model. The location of a period breaking a sentence into two was confusing as it separated the subject matter in the same way. This is what led me to think you where thinking about flyers which do have permission to end with parts of their hull over top other models, something skimmers do not have as they must move to a position where nothing is underneath them.

JinxDragon wrote:
This is what led me to think you where thinking about flyers which do have permission to end with parts of their hull over top other models, something skimmers do not have as they must move to a position where nothing is underneath them.

That's correct, skimmers must be moved, it says so in their rules that describe what to do when you find yourself in the situation that you end your move over an enemy unit as can be the case with Deep Strike scatter.

It is possible to follow both rules though.

You can move a skimmer (i.e. a monolith) so that no models are underneath it, and so that it is still within 1" of an enemy model. This would cause it to mishap.

A landspeeder however, could land in a manner that the skimmer rule could push it far enough away that its flyer base is indeed more than 1" away from enemy models, protecting it from mishaps.

Since monolith's have no flyer base, they are kinda out of luck.

Eihnlazer wrote:


Since monolith's have no flyer base, they are kinda out of luck.

From GW website in the Necron Monolith listing : "Model supplied with a large flying base."

Is it usual to not put them on it? I could imagine it might be fairly top heavy.

They never used to come with them, and i have never seen a monolith with one.

Eihnlazer wrote:
They never used to come with them, and i have never seen a monolith with one.

Me either. Odd

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land ....... or within 1" of an enemy model, "

"If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

Right, but, even if this were possible, after you "move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it." you are still within 1 inch of an enemy and would mishap anyway.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Show their move rule specifically alters the ds rule. Page and para.

From the digital so page numbers are useless, I'm sure you'll find it.

"The base of a Skimmer is effectively ignored, except for when: (nothing to do with deep strike)" so a skimmer's base is not sufficient to prevent the unit being deployed because it is ignored.

It's hull absolutely is, however.
Who mentioned the base, aside from you?
Have you found evidence that scattering is a move, despite the fact that no one could ever mishap if that was true?

Hull yes but given thd hull is 6" off the table it doesn't prevent it being deployed.

Is there anything that says it isn't movement because given that it happens in the movement phase it pretty much goes without saying.

Either way it doesn't matter if it is movement, as all that needs to happen is for the skimmer be forced to end its movement over a model, which deep striking does.

I have no idea why that would mean that mishapping is impossible.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Hull yes but given thd hull is 6" off the table it doesn't prevent it being deployed.

Not all skimmers have a 6 inch flight stand...

Is there anything that says it isn't movement because given that it happens in the movement phase it pretty much goes without saying.

(Emphasis mine)
And here is the issue. The ruleset is permissive.

You are only allowed to do what the rules tell you you can do. "It doesn't say I cant" is not a valid argument, because the rules dont say I cant roll a die at the start of your turn and on a 2+ remove one of your units as a casualty, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

Either way it doesn't matter if it is movement, as all that needs to happen is for the skimmer be forced to end its movement over a model, which deep striking does.

No, deep striking does not. It does not move while being placed on the table and scattering, scattering is not a move.

I have no idea why that would mean that mishapping is impossible.

Because if scattering were movement you could not scatter on top of an enemy unit, or cross Difficult terrain, or leave the table.

You would also have to take dangerous terrain tests when you scattered across dangerous terrain.

Therefore scattering is not a move unless you have a quote from the BRB that we somehow missed...

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Hull yes but given thd hull is 6" off the table it doesn't prevent it being deployed.

How is the Monolith 6" off the table?

Is there anything that says it isn't movement because given that it happens in the movement phase it pretty much goes without saying.

Either way it doesn't matter if it is movement, as all that needs to happen is for the skimmer be forced to end its movement over a model, which deep striking does.

I have no idea why that would mean that mishapping is impossible.

Everything that happens in the movement phase is movement? Are you sure?

If scattering is movement, cite permission to move into impassable terrain (in order to mishap).

If the monolith is a skimmer it should be on a flying base, that's what the rules say.

Were did I say that everything that happens in the movement phase is movement ?

If you check the rule it is the fact that a model can't move into impassible terrain and thus cannot be deployed is what causes the mishap. Units mishap not because they move into impassable terrain, they mishap because they can't.

If anything that supports the notion that it is movement.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
If the monolith is a skimmer it should be on a flying base, that's what the rules say.

Landspeeders are skimmers and they do not come on a 6in tall flying base.

If you check the rule it is the fact that a model can't move into impassible terrain and thus cannot be deployed is what causes the mishap.

Units mishap not because they move into impassable terrain, they mishap because they can't.

If anything that supports the notion that it is movement.

Not at all true. If scattering was movement you would not be able to cross the Impassible terrain and have to stop right there, the fact that you can scatter on top of impassible terrain, or the fact that you don't take Difficult or Dangerous Terrain tests supports the notion that it is not movement.

No mate you've got that the wrong way around. If you can be placed on impassable terrain then you don't mishap.

As the rule says, "if a model cannot be deployed", that is the trigger for a mishap.

If you can be placed on impassible terrain, as a skimmer can, the you can be deployed so you don't mishap.

No, a skimmer can move there. Cite permission for non movement to take it there.

It absolutely IS a marker, s you didn't complete the quote, which is disingenuous. The full quote states it is where you want the unit to arrive. Meaning the unit isn't there, you are simply marking its position. You also haven't answered how you could move within 1", if scattering were movement.

It can finish its move there, deep strike finishes its move.

Saying deep strike isn't movement is yet another made up concept that isn't part of the rules.

It is not a marker it is a model from the unit, which in the case of a skimmer is usually the only model in the unit. The word marker is not used anywhere in the deep strike rules, that is also a made up concept that is not part of the rules.

A unit that deep strikes counts as having moved, that doesn't mean deep striking is movement any more than vector striking is making a shooting attack.

Whatever mate, it still doesn't matter, all that is required is that the skimmer be forced to end its move over a unit. Deep striking does that. It can also end its move over impassable terrain, which can also happen via deep strike.

Can you end your move without moving?

I guess you have to or else you'd never get a shooting phase without moving.

I'm also not sure how you be instructed to move no further if you haven't already moved.

Either way having come from not on the table to on the table has to be movement, not sure how else you'd describe such spatial displacement.

I would describe it as placement.

Eihnlazer wrote:
They never used to come with them, ....

Not entirely true. Some were supplied with them, some weren't. Both at the same time, for a while...

Uptopdownunder wrote:
If the monolith is a skimmer it should be on a flying base, that's what the rules say.

Oh, so you're unaware that "flying base" != Flyer base? That's cool, but just FYI, they are different things.

Were did I say that everything that happens in the movement phase is movement ?

You said that it "pretty much goes without saying" that something that happens in the movement phase is movement. Please support that statement with actual rules.

If you check the rule it is the fact that a model can't move into impassible terrain and thus cannot be deployed is what causes the mishap. Units mishap not because they move into impassable terrain, they mishap because they can't.

First of all, movement and deployment are two completely different things.
Second, there are examples of being able to deploy somewhere that you cannot ever move. A TFC on top of a Bastion, for example.
The model scatters. The model cannot move into Impassable terrain so stops before it gets there. The model can absolutely be deployed.
Why the mishap? Because it's not deployed where it scattered? Is that what the rules actually say?
If so, why do Drop pods not mishap?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
No that is flawed logic.

No, it's 100% internally consistent logic. Unlike what you're trying to argue that while DS is movement, it is not subject to rules regarding movement. Except those that would give Monoliths Mishap protection...

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Skimmers have a special exception that allows them to end their move over impassable terrain and enemy units.

Emphasis mine The first sentence under "Moving Skimmers" in rules directly contradicts what you claim, so it is pretty obvious you really need to read the Skimmer rules again. BRB, page 83: Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
That's why other units mishap and they don't. Their move has ended and they are over impassable terrain or another model. Skimmers can move off, other units can't. As per the rules for skimmers.

You're making rules up, again.

Let me ask you again: If DS is movement, how can models move end over another model, considering that is explicitly forbidden page 10. Please give either page number, rules quotation or what specific rule you referring when answering these question. Examples about latter would be The Movement Phase, "Models in The Way" or Vehicles, Skimmers, "Moving Skimmers"

Uptopdownunder wrote:
It can finish its move there, deep strike finishes its move.

Saying deep strike isn't movement is yet another made up concept that isn't part of the rules.

It is not a marker it is a model from the unit, which in the case of a skimmer is usually the only model in the unit. The word marker is not used anywhere in the deep strike rules, that is also a made up concept that is not part of the rules.

Ah, so you didn't read the ds rules them? The initial model has to function as a marker, as you're told it is where you want the unit to arrive. Meaning the unit cannot actually be there yet.