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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 dogma wrote:
Relapse wrote:

Marriage should, since a part of the vow is to "forsake all others", but I understand that not all people take that vow seriously.


Probably because marital vows don't necessarily include "forsake all others". People write their own vows all the time, and it isn't (to my knowledge) a required element of the ceremony at civil marriages.

Relapse wrote:

As far as the kid not feeling anything, I heavily disagree with what you say. I think most people here on the thread have seen instances where a lot of regret comes about things done in youth when they are thought about at a more mature age.


I doubt this will be one of those things. I certainly wouldn't regret it.


It could fall either way, I'll grant. But if there is a marriage and it does break up, and he does develop a concience along the way, then it will not make for pleasant contemplation.
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Relapse wrote:

What if he grows up with the idea it's acceptable for him to have sex with 14 year old girls because of how this played out.


I suspect he believed that before having sex with his teacher.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/23 20:49:24


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Angry Chaos Agitator




History has shown these discussions inevitably break into two very specific camps

You mean the people who will discuss this seriously and the people who say "the crime is she isn't having sex with me".

It would still be wrong even if this wasn't the case but she wouldn't be arrested if she wasn't a teacher given that the student was of legal age. Oh and by the way the reason this made the news was because she's good looking, the whole violated by a woman fantasy isn't far fetched, just the part of them all being hot.

Oh and on a side note regarding the issue of sexual harassment in school, college or the workplace it also causes horrible jealousy issues. I guarantee you all the male interns who worked for Clinton knew they had no chance. Also I have had the misfortune of being in a class environment where the was a whose your sugar mom going on and nothing got done just cause off jealousy issues.

If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Relapse wrote:

It could fall either way, I'll grant. But if there is a marriage and it does break up, and he does develop a concience along the way, then it will not make for pleasant contemplation.


By "develops a conscience" what you really mean is "develops a conscience like mine".

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 dogma wrote:
Relapse wrote:

It could fall either way, I'll grant. But if there is a marriage and it does break up, and he does develop a concience along the way, then it will not make for pleasant contemplation.


By "develops a conscience" what you really mean is "develops a conscience like mine".


I've seen many times the impact divorce has on people, adults and children. Are you saying you wouldn't care about the way people would be affected or the consequences in their lives if you were the cause of a divorce?
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Relapse wrote:

I've seen many times the impact divorce has on people, adults and children. Are you saying you wouldn't care about the way people would be affected or the consequences in their lives if you were the cause of a divorce?


It would depend on the circumstances, but if I gave a damn it would be at the onset of the relationship.

In all honesty no person outside a given marriage is the cause of any divorce, people that claim that are deflecting.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 dogma wrote:
Relapse wrote:

I've seen many times the impact divorce has on people, adults and children. Are you saying you wouldn't care about the way people would be affected or the consequences in their lives if you were the cause of a divorce?


It would depend on the circumstances, but if I gave a damn it would be at the onset of the relationship.

In all honesty no person outside a given marriage is the cause of any divorce, people that claim that are deflecting.


So if you commited adultry with a woman, the husband found out, and divorced her, beat her, whatever, and possibly kids were faced with the prospect of dealing with the effect on their lives of the whole drama, this would not bother you in the slightest? The thought of such a thing happening at the outset would not even give you pause?
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Kamloops, BC

Relapse wrote:
 dogma wrote:
Relapse wrote:

I've seen many times the impact divorce has on people, adults and children. Are you saying you wouldn't care about the way people would be affected or the consequences in their lives if you were the cause of a divorce?


It would depend on the circumstances, but if I gave a damn it would be at the onset of the relationship.

In all honesty no person outside a given marriage is the cause of any divorce, people that claim that are deflecting.


So if you commited adultry with a woman, the husband found out, and divorced her, beat her, whatever, and possibly kids were faced with the prospect of dealing with the effect on their lives of the whole drama, this would not bother you in the slightest? The thought of such a thing happening at the outset would not even give you pause?


Honestly divorce would probably be the best thing to happen to that relationship if the husband beats his wife.
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Relapse wrote:

So if you commited adultry with a woman, the husband found out, and divorced her, beat her, whatever, and possibly kids were faced with the prospect of dealing with the effect on their lives of the whole drama, this would not bother you in the slightest? The thought of such a thing happening at the outset would not even give you pause?


That isn't what I said.

If those things seemed probable at the onset of the relationship they would give me pause, though not necessarily stop me. I also would never feel any responsibility for the dissolution of the marriage. A marriage in which one partner is cheating is a broken marriage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/23 21:46:48


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Cheesecat wrote:
Relapse wrote:
 dogma wrote:
Relapse wrote:

I've seen many times the impact divorce has on people, adults and children. Are you saying you wouldn't care about the way people would be affected or the consequences in their lives if you were the cause of a divorce?


It would depend on the circumstances, but if I gave a damn it would be at the onset of the relationship.

In all honesty no person outside a given marriage is the cause of any divorce, people that claim that are deflecting.


So if you commited adultry with a woman, the husband found out, and divorced her, beat her, whatever, and possibly kids were faced with the prospect of dealing with the effect on their lives of the whole drama, this would not bother you in the slightest? The thought of such a thing happening at the outset would not even give you pause?


Honestly divorce would probably be the best thing to happen to that relationship if the husband beats his wife.


So what I am gathering from the comments of Dogma and yourself, forgive me if I'm wrong, you have never witnessed a case of adultry where anyone was deeply hurt? As far as beating goes, I'm not saying it's a regular thing, but a crime of passion upon finding out about the adultry. Really people's actions can go in any direction with that kind of discovery, as we all probably know.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/23 22:00:20


 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu






Yorkshire, England

This is so called 'gender equality' for you. If the teacher was a man he would of been locked up for life.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Kamloops, BC

I've never witnessed adultery in general, I just think hurting people physically is disgusting (unless that's your fetish and it's consensual) and should only be used in self-defense or to protect others.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/23 22:02:33


 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 MetalOxide wrote:
This is so called 'gender equality' for you. If the teacher was a man he would of been locked up for life.


As we can see from the facts, that is your fantasy, not reality.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Cheesecat wrote:
I've never witnessed adultery in general, I just think hurting people physically is disgusting (unless that's your fetish and it's consensual) and should only be used in self-defense or to protect others.


Be that as it may, I have seen first hand several times the way people react to discovery of adultry and it was never pretty. The first time was a couple of friends of mine in high school had thier world turned upside down when their father was found to be cheating with a younger woman and the marriage came apart. They were dragged through months of hell and it left a serious mark on the younger one. Another acquaintence discovered cheating and it led to a murder-suicide. One of my closest friends two years ago discovered his wife was cheating and that marriage ended with effects on his health and mental state. He went from being outgoing and happy to extremely pessemistic and I'd almost say suicidal.
I can give other examples, but I think these that I've given already should give a general idea. People are unpredictable when faced with this kind of thing.
   
Made in br
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor




 Polonius wrote:
Here's the problem. If instead of having sex that night, the woman had quit her job and waited a month, it would magically not be rape. She wouldn't be an educator, and he'd be 17. Has his ability to consent changed markedly in that time? Or have simply the circumstances changed?

Statutory rape laws are arbitrary, which is fine, because a big part of being adult is following arbitrary rules. Arbitrary doesn't mean bad or frivolous, but it also doesn't mean that somebody is morally bankrupt because they ended up on the wrong side.

Rape, at its broadest, is sexual contact without the consent of the victim. We have no reason to doubt that that boy gave consent, it was simply his age under Texas law, and the fact that the woman was his teacher, that prevented him from giving legal consent.

Maybe he is upset by this. Maybe he's in counseling because he was taken advantage of by a predator. Or maybe he's happy he slept with a hot 24 year old. We don't know, probably won't ever know, but I'm gonna take a guess that there's no real victim here.


Well put. Have an exalt.
As an aside, she was pretty young herself. I don't know a bout you guys, but I've known more than a few 25-year olds who weren't much more adult than 16-18 year olds. Also, I know quite a few couples/marriages (my sister included) where the age difference is the same or more as between these two people.
Obviously, there would have been a much more significant difference in mental capacity had they both been 6 years younger, but still.
Also, I'm not sure the situation should be (obviously it is) handled any differently had their ages been reversed. In fact, girls/women (or so I'm told) become adults faster than men do, so this is one instance where men are definitely discriminated against.

Obviously, I do agree that she was fired and fined heavily for violating teacher/student whatchamacallit.

(OT: While I'm definitely an adult, I do not blindly follow arbitrary rules. I make it a point to question them and throw them out the window when the situation requires it.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/23 23:58:58


 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Polonius wrote:
Here's the problem. If instead of having sex that night, the woman had quit her job and waited a month, it would magically not be rape. She wouldn't be an educator, and he'd be 17. Has his ability to consent changed markedly in that time? Or have simply the circumstances changed?.


This is probably the best argument ITT for the sentencing as it lay that isn't rooted in simply "niiiice". While I still think a sex offender registry was appropriate I do find your reasoning compelling.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Relapse wrote:

So what I am gathering from the comments of Dogma and yourself, forgive me if I'm wrong, you have never witnessed a case of adultry where anyone was deeply hurt?


I have, but in all cases one party or the other was invested in a relationship that had no value to them beyond that which was dictated by a perceived need to be married.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Angry Chaos Agitator




OK this is just my take but is the only reason she's in the news cause she's hot, cause I never see fat lunch ladies getting on the news.

If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
OK this is just my take but is the only reason she's in the news cause she's hot, cause I never see fat lunch ladies getting on the news.


I imagine this case would receive coverage regardless of her appearance, but her appearance definitely increased the amount of coverage it received.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Veteran ORC







 dogma wrote:
 Seaward wrote:
I'm pretty okay with the "double standard." Pretending that males are exactly the same as females and need the same protections? Not so much.


I am as well, to a extent.

As Polonius said before, case-by-case review should be the norm.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I'm willing to bet that this woman has some kind of mental illness. What attractive 25 year old wants to get slutted up and bang a 16 year old? Might be a domestic dispute issue - husband and her have an argument, she goes out to "show him up" or something along those lines.


How does a perceived desire to embarrass a husband lead you to conclude that the woman in question may have been suffering from a mental illness?

I mean, aside from sexism
.



Someone who agrees men don't need the same protections as women, or rather, imply that women are unable to protect themselves in the same vein as men, does NOT get to accuse someone else of sexism....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/24 04:00:29


I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Slarg232 wrote:

Someone who agrees men don't need the same protections as women, or rather, imply that women are unable to protect themselves in the same vein as men, does NOT get to accuse someone else of sexism....


It is not sexist to recognize that the biological differences between men and women necessitate different protections, nor that those differences render women more vulnerable than men.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Veteran ORC







 dogma wrote:
 Slarg232 wrote:

Someone who agrees men don't need the same protections as women, or rather, imply that women are unable to protect themselves in the same vein as men, does NOT get to accuse someone else of sexism....


It is not sexist to recognize that the biological differences between men and women necessitate different protections, nor that those differences render women more vulnerable than men.



And how do women need protecting over men?

Physically? Pepper Spray, guns, knives, hell, even a flashlight can be used as a weapon in a darkened room/alley.
Sexually? Are you saying that if it weren't for men's laws protecting women, they would just wantonly have sex willy nilly because they don't know better?


How Vulnerable do you need to be in a world where you can be dead by a couple of ounces of pulling on a trigger?

I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Slarg232 wrote:

And how do women need protecting over men?


I never claimed that the protection of women should be prioritized over the protection of men.

 Slarg232 wrote:

Physically? Pepper Spray, guns, knives, hell, even a flashlight can be used as a weapon in a darkened room/alley.


Yes, but due to biology men have an advantage over women in any sort of physical confrontation.

This is compounded by male dominance within society. The stereotypical example is police stating that a woman was "Asking for it."

 Slarg232 wrote:

Sexually? Are you saying that if it weren't for men's laws protecting women, they would just wantonly have sex willy nilly because they don't know better?


I never said anything remotely like that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/24 05:19:36


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





Edit: Nevermind.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/24 05:52:42


 
   
Made in ca
Plastictrees





Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo it's not.
Please vocalize the sentiment. Say "she deserved to be raped because her skirt was short."
If you feel like a jackass afterwards, congrats, you're not the worst person in the world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes....never mind indeed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/24 05:56:09


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ouze wrote:
It's not different than having sex with a woman who has passed out; in that the other party is incapable of giving consent.


But isn't there some kind of statutory consent law when it comes to being molested by sexy blonde lady teachers? Perhaps I'm being facetious, but given that he was probably never going to shoot her down had he been capable of consenting (or not), then stressing that this is the serious crime of 'rape' seems a little draconian. It's also quite a ridiculous situation, since if he had been the one that raped her, he would likely have been tried as an adult, and no one would have questioned whether he knew what he was doing. Or we would be forced to conclude that they both got raped.

I think the punishment should probably reflect the injury (if any) that was inflicted on the victim (regardless of gender). In this case, I imagine the punishment was more than sufficient.


However, her other crime of abusing her position as an educator is a different matter. To say she behaved unprofessionally would be an understatement. Someone like this certainly shouldn't be allowed to work with children ever again. And I don't see why she should be treated any differently to a man in that regard.
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

I guess this is the flip side of the whole, "promiscuous guy? What a stud. Promiscuous woman? Total slut." dichotomy.

I think she's a fool, and the idea of totally equal treatment is appealing, as is the idea that I'm somehow oppressed because I'm a dude, but the fact is the consequences ARE potentially more severe for a girl (potential pregnancy, social stigma, etc) than for a guy.

   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

This just wasn't a very serious example of the technical crime of statutory rape, when you consider all the factors.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 MetalOxide wrote:
This is so called 'gender equality' for you. If the teacher was a man he would of been locked up for life.

So, are you saying that people are treated differently depending on their gender, and that we should fix that ? Or just that women committing statutory rape should be charged as much as men, and that is about all we need to change ?

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Kojiro wrote:
So, a teacher broke the law on two counts- one having sex with a student and two having sex with a minor.

In a fair and equal society that is the extent of the information you need to sentence the perpetrator. If you adjust your sentencing based on the gender -whichever way you do so- you are showing your bias.

And yeah, if the boy didn't mind, I don't see the problem. Hell, I know I wanted to tap one or 2 of my teachers back at that age.

Minors cannot consent. Sex without consent is rape.


Kojiro has the way of it.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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