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So, I have been scouring ebay for some heresy items and have come across one that I definitely know is a fake, (the seller told me his supplier in china had to cast it up, and that was why the shipping took so long), so the question is this, to report or not to report? i'm not even considering buying as I don't trust the quality of a recast and even if I did, forgeworld seem to be the only aspect of GW still looking out for the fans, so I feel that I should show a little brand loyalty, what do you say?

Even if you report, what can they do really? If you're so loyal then don't buy.

eBay can remove the listing, ban the seller, freeze his paypal, a whole host of things actually. If they bother is another story, I was not intending on purchasing this item, too much about it seems wrong (manufacturer in china sends to a dude in Central Europe, who checks it for quality then posts it to me in England, bit odd).

I am pretty sure this thread jumped the shark into Dakka territory a scant 3 posts in...

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I am pretty sure this thread jumped the shark into Dakka territory a scant 3 posts in...

I'm not sure how but if it has then apologies, i just wanted opinions from folk on how (and even if) I should react to a definite forgery. If it does breach any dakka rules please lock. Just to make it clear, I am in no way advocating buying faked models, no matter his skillfully done they are.

I don't think he was aiming that at you. I think he was counting your first post at post 1, not post 0.

Report it. Not just for GW but to get fakers of all kinds off eBay. They are a pain, as many people who have purchased fake goods in error will attest. By reporting any fakers you are making it a more hostile environment for them. I don't know about fakers but eBay are very good at removing listings for fake/blank car log books and clocking kits so it is worth reporting.

Let Games Workshop protect their own IP. A company that pulls in $225 million USD doesn't need the services of unpaid IP vigilantes.

 Ouze wrote:
Let Games Workshop protect their own IP. A company that pulls in $225 million USD doesn't need the services of unpaid IP vigilantes.

It's not quite an "IP Vigilante" here, this isn't "Hey look, someone is producing a "counts as Space Marine" mini, this is blantent recasting of GW stuff. It's copyright infringement (not copyright theft which isn't even a thing) and - in the UK at least, I can't speak for American laws, it is illegal.

Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

Stranger83 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Let Games Workshop protect their own IP. A company that pulls in $225 million USD doesn't need the services of unpaid IP vigilantes.

It's not quite an "IP Vigilante" here, this isn't "Hey look, someone is producing a "counts as Space Marine" mini, this is blantent recasting of GW stuff. It's copyright infringement (not copyright theft which isn't even a thing) and - in the UK at least, I can't speak for American laws, it is illegal.

Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

GW getting their overpriced IP infringed is the same as somebody getting robbed on the street now? LOL

As long as they continue to pull shenanigans like charge $20 for a pdf with 1 page of rules, I will continue to not care when their IP is infringed upon. In fact you could look at these recasters as doing us all a favor. If they screw GW over enough (they won't, really though) maybe GW will have to sell the IP to somebody who isn't an idiot.

Maybe if GW sold their stuff at reasonable prices they wouldn't have this problem. Recasters only make money because GW charges exorbitant prices, so the still high prices for plastic toys that recasters charge look cheap in comparison. GW doesn't need your online white knighting, they are litigious enough and are basically anti-paladins already.

You should let GW know. Wrong is wrong. I have been at several conventions where I met recasters on site selling fake GW recasts. I bought some, and sent them into GW with all the information I had been able to gather. Of course I didn't let the recasters on to what I did.

Part of me posting this here is because I was somewhat shocked at how brazen the seller was about it, admitting in a eBay message it was a copy (unless forgeworld actually has a Chinese division?). There are a few other sellers floating about of a similar ilk, for example item description 'this is an exquisite reproduction of forgeworld's 'add item name'.

OK, folks, obligatory reminder time: Dakka does not, and can not, endorse any sort of IP infringement. That includes allowing discussion that wanders too far over the line into promoting it as well. Please keep that in mind, as inappropriate posts will be removed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sirius42 wrote:
...(unless forgeworld actually has a Chinese division?)..

They did for a time. There has been some speculation that at least some of the Forgeworld recasts floating around online probably came from illicit use of actual Forgeworld moulds in China, rather than recasting. Still dodgy, just for a slightly different reason - they still have no permission to be selling casts of Forgeworld models in either case.


Chinese recasters are often fairly open about what they do, as they don't see a problem with it due to the generally lax enforcement of copyright law in China. eBay will shut them down on the request of the OP owner, though.

Report it.
The type of people who recast (and those who knowingly buy from them) ruin it for people who actually legitimately produce stuff.
Regardless of your feelings about GW pricing, it's still wrong.

 ZultanQ wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Let Games Workshop protect their own IP. A company that pulls in $225 million USD doesn't need the services of unpaid IP vigilantes.

It's not quite an "IP Vigilante" here, this isn't "Hey look, someone is producing a "counts as Space Marine" mini, this is blantent recasting of GW stuff. It's copyright infringement (not copyright theft which isn't even a thing) and - in the UK at least, I can't speak for American laws, it is illegal.

Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

GW getting their overpriced IP infringed is the same as somebody getting robbed on the street now? LOL

Yes, cause I didn't preface it with "Without trying to say this is on the same level" or anything - I clearly tried to say that they were exactly the same thing.

Illegal is illegal, simple as - if you see someone breaking the law you should report it.

Also, again this isn't IP infringement (a civil matter) it is copyright infringement (a criminal matter) it is an important distinction.

And telling people that they should report people who break the law is white knighting now? Wow, I really don't want to live in a world that is like that.

I wouldn't buy stuff that's currently in production because that just being cheap not shortage of supply. Things that GW have scrapped like supplies for specialist games and Squats? Well there's little harm as GW don't sell BFG stuff and similar any more so they're not making sales on which to lose out. Also if they'd bothered to support many ranges in the first place, the secondary market wouldn't be so desperately expensive. There are people who recast rare figures and pass them off as the genuine article to cash in on high rarity. This I feel is immoral because you're conning people, at least be open about it, or as much as might be reasonable.

Stranger83 wrote:
[Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

Games Workshop doesn't fit my idea of a defenseless victim in need of assistance from passerby. It's a poor analogy. GWS has a very large and aggressive legal department and I find the idea that unpaid volunteers should scour the internet to defend their profit margins laughable.

Go volunteer in a soup kitchen if you wish to actually help someone that can use it.

For all of those saying gw is a big faceless corporation this is true but IMO forgeworld seem like a very decent bunch, not that this changes the legalities but maybe the desire to help out?

Kelly502 wrote:You should let GW know. Wrong is wrong. I have been at several conventions where I met recasters on site selling fake GW recasts. I bought some, and sent them into GW with all the information I had been able to gather. Of course I didn't let the recasters on to what I did.

Wonderful if you've got money to waste on things like that I suppose...

Ouze wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
[Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

Go volunteer in a soup kitchen if you wish to actually help someone that can use it.

I feel the same way.

 Ouze wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
[Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW

Games Workshop doesn't fit my idea of a defenseless victim in need of assistance from passerby. It's a poor analogy. GWS has a very large and aggressive legal department and I find the idea that unpaid volunteers should scour the internet to defend their profit margins laughable.

Go volunteer in a soup kitchen if you wish to actually help someone that can use it.

So if you see a mugger being beaten up by some vigilantes then you wouldn't report this either? What if they were using baseball bats? What if they had a knife?

Just how illegal/innocent does something have to be before you would report it?

I fully agree that GW are over zealous when it comes to IP infringement, I hate them for that, but I'm of the opinion that society gives us a bunch of rules to live by, we call these rules the law and if someone breaks them then you should report it.

You're opinion may well vary and that is fine - I just hope that you never are the victim of a crime that could have been stopped but someone thought it was "fair" because you earn more than them, or because you were once mean to someone.

I wouldn't work in a soup kitchen, this requires more of my free time than I'm prepared to give, however pressing a "report" button takes seconds and helps me prevent someone doing something illegal.

I didn't answer your analogy because it's not a good one, and expanding upon it is not improving it.

 Ouze wrote:
I didn't answer your analogy because it's not a good one, and expanding upon it is not improving it.

Then just answer this one:

Just how illegal/innocent does something have to be before you would report it? The law is the law I don't see why would would report some crimes being commited but not others.

I wonder if the people here that are so understanding of Copyright infringment would keep the same attitude if it where privateer press minis or infinity minis instead of GW stuff.

 Seneca wrote:
I wonder if the people here that are so understanding of Copyright infringment would keep the same attitude if it where privateer press minis or infinity minis instead of GW stuff.

I doubt it. Those companies have retained a higher level of goodwill, are non-public, and are much, much smaller than GW.

 gunslingerpro wrote:

 Seneca wrote:
I wonder if the people here that are so understanding of Copyright infringment would keep the same attitude if it where privateer press minis or infinity minis instead of GW stuff.

I doubt it. Those companies have retained a higher level of goodwill, are non-public, and are much, much smaller than GW.

And thats exactly my point. It is ok as long as we are talking about GW but Nurgle have mercy if you dare to consider this option for products made by a company that is not the target of such contempt. I'm always surprised by such doublestandards. When it is illegal to recast PP's work than it is too for GW's stuff.

It's not really double standards. A company that treats its customers in an at-times questionable manner is bound to have less people that care about it enough to report illegal activities concerning it (or, at least to make an effort/go out of their way to make authorities aware).

Rightly or wrongly, over the past 6-10 years GW have built up the image of a company 'run by suits' - they have lost that human, relatable element that is held by other, smaller, companies (and actually, used to be the case for GW themselves). I wouldn't ever knowingly buy forgeries myself as I admire that GW have managed to keep much of their production in the UK, and it gives people jobs. But, a lot of what they have done as a company is despisable, unsuited to what is really such a small and personable industry, and their public image as well as inflated prices have lead to a large growth in the illegal copies of their products.

 Pacific wrote:
It's not really double standards. A company that treats its customers in an at-times questionable manner is bound to have less people that care about it enough to report illegal activities concerning it (or, at least to make an effort/go out of their way to make authorities aware).

Rightly or wrongly, over the past 6-10 years GW have built up the image of a company 'run by suits' - they have lost that human, relatable element that is held by other, smaller, companies (and actually, used to be the case for GW themselves). I wouldn't ever knowingly buy forgeries myself as I admire that GW have managed to keep much of their production in the UK, and it gives people jobs. But, a lot of what they have done as a company is despisable, unsuited to what is really such a small and personable industry, and their public image as well as inflated prices have lead to a large growth in the illegal copies of their products.

The last recast thread that came up, I pointed out that even if you know where to look, recasts for other popular games are few and far between. Someone who had spent a lot more time looking into the whole subject (I forget the username, sorry) replied that he had actually talked this over with a recaster, and the response was it wasn't down to price or popularity, the overwhelming majority of purchasers, where the topic came up, were simply disenchanted. There is a significant lack of that element in PP or Corvus Belli fans, and consequently that demand wasn't there in sufficient numbers to be worth the recaster catering to it, despite the fact it takes very little investment to simply offer them for sale and then cast to order.

Stranger83 wrote:
The law is the law I don't see why would would report some crimes being commited but not others.

The law may certainly be the law, but everyone has their own set of morals/ethics.
Besides, laws can be disregarded at times.

And, speaking of reporting some crimes and not others, I assume you make a personal appearance to the police station on your own initiative every time you go over the speed limit while driving? It is the law, after all.

 Sirius42 wrote:
So, I have been scouring ebay for some heresy items and have come across one that I definitely know is a fake, (the seller told me his supplier in china had to cast it up, and that was why the shipping took so long), so the question is this, to report or not to report? i'm not even considering buying as I don't trust the quality of a recast and even if I did, forgeworld seem to be the only aspect of GW still looking out for the fans, so I feel that I should show a little brand loyalty, what do you say?

Honestly?

You throw a tag on it to Feebay, ( heh heh..) and then move on. You do not owe anything other then a cursory nod, and call it a day. Brand loyalty doesn't really apply, its more a matter of- "Oh, another one of those..." because these small time recastors just disappear and reappear that randomly.

At the end of the day, its about making money.

GW can make it, or you can throw it at some .... other gent, and its still going out of your pocket. It's not a moral dilemma, anymore then putting on jelly before peanutbutter, or adding in peanutbutter before the jelly.

At the end of the day, its wrong, but not your issue, unless you want it to be.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
The law is the law I don't see why would would report some crimes being commited but not others.

The law may certainly be the law, but everyone has their own set of morals/ethics.
Besides, laws can be disregarded at times.

And, speaking of reporting some crimes and not others, I assume you make a personal appearance to the police station on your own initiative every time you go over the speed limit while driving? It is the law, after all.

I never said that people cannot have their own set of morals - there is plenty that is Illegal that I think shouldn't be, and plenty of things that are not illegal that I think should be - but me thinking something shouldn;t be illegal doesn't change the fact that it is.

I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

But if for some reason I did go over the speed limit - maybe some kind of emergency - then yes I would do this, and explain my reasoning and take any punishment they deemed required

Stranger83 wrote:


I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

Ha! What a load of bull. Even my Gran went over the speed limit occasionally.

You sir, are either a (highly implausible) liar, or you're being cute because you can't drive.

Stranger83 wrote:

But if for some reason I did go over the speed limit - maybe some kind of emergency - then yes I would do this, and explain my reasoning and take any punishment they deemed required

No you wouldn't, stop undermining your credibility by trying to be absurd in the Internet to win a discussion.