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 azreal13 wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:


I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

Ha! What a load of bull. Even my Gran went over the speed limit occasionally.

You sir, are either a (highly implausible) liar, or you're being cute because you can't drive.

Stranger83 wrote:

But if for some reason I did go over the speed limit - maybe some kind of emergency - then yes I would do this, and explain my reasoning and take any punishment they deemed required

No you wouldn't, stop undermining your credibility by trying to be absurd in the Internet to win a discussion.

I've really not - at least not on purpose. I suppose there are occasions where the particular road speed limit is different to the normal speed limit and since I don't know the area I might have gone over it - but it's difficult to turn yourself in without realising that you have broken a law.

I can;t believe that you find it implausible that someone follows the law of the land - I find that quite strange.

And yes I would, as someone here has already pointed out the police have the authority to not press charges if they feel it wasn't needed - Maybe I am I unusual but personally I'd prefer to have a clean conscience than have a clean driving licence.

I find it equally strange that you really feel that speeding is the sort of thing that would render you incapable of having a "clear conscience."

To the OP tbh I have been thinking on buying from re-casts (have not bought anything but have been thinking of it) as I am tbh, sick of GW's neglecting of us gamers.

I think what we have to consider is that morality is not as black and white as us humans think it is, instead it is a very, very linear line that defines what is right or wrong (and that's how I see it)

Now with that in mind, I would feel guilty if I had bought re-casts if GW was good too me as a gamer and customer and I have shelled out hundred's of pounds on that company already and I do not feel as if I have received much benefit from the company, a good example is how the rules are and how the game is played currently in 6th ed. in this edition we may have received nice looking models, but at the same time the majority for the units and models I like have abysmal rules that benefit my opponent more then myself.

So why would I give more to a company that doesn't really care much about certain aspects of a hobby that I desire?

GW think of business as a one way handshake, when it is a double edged blade.

They should provide us with good models (which they do and if I deem it enough quality I will buy the official product provided it is not at an absurd price) but also provide us with a set of good rules for their price, now I know a lot of people already will be saying now that they don't have too because it is mainly a model company but when they do sell rules (at the price they do), they are also covering another aspect of the hobby they so promote therefore if they are going to cover part of the hobby then they should do it well. GW does not provide this and just slings the phrase of "beer and pretzels" to cover up their incompetence of rules writing.

So why should I treat a company with my cash if they are not going to treat me right as a customer covering an area of the hobby and advertise that it is a game?

This goes with the same with any company who rushes into the mindset of £££ is more important than the customer because they are wrong, after all how can the make that £££ without the customer to spend it on? the trick of running a company is to get the right balance between the £££ and treating their customer right with the areas of what they provide.

therefore if I do want something then I will try to get it as cheap as I can because why not? I do not feel as if the company has treated me with enough respect to meet my standards (as it has with many other customers I assume), and if GW notices that my money has disappeared tough luck, that's what happens to questionable company's.

I will not that this is my opinion as a customer viewpoint and nothing more, nothing less.

Honestly given the prices that GW charges, I'd have no moral qualms about using recasts as much as possible. In the same fashion I would have no qualms about acquiring the rules via other means, because they cannot justify the price they charge.

As an aside, in my area while GW and forgeworld are almost treated as seperate entities, many conversations go along the lines of 'GW, man its expensive,' 'yeah but did you see the preview of all the cool new stuff forgeworld are doing', kinda like GW's hot elder sister, you have to hang out with gw to hang out with the hotness. However that does not seem to be the case in this thread, i find it odd.


anyway back to the topic on hand, I can see both sides of this 'report it its theft' and 'let GW fight their own battles' seem to be the 2 camps coming out of this thread, (with a small minority in camp 3 going 'Buy Buy Buy'). I find myself inclined to agree with the report it crowd, if only because it hurts the hobby and I have quite a lot of goodwill towards the forgeworld branch of the hobby.

Going back to the speeding comment earlier.... REALLY? you'd really own up to speeding and turn yourself in? I find that baffling

Well, you know it's like "what do you do" if no one does anything then they get away with it right?

Hey who knows, maybe GW will give you a free art print?

 Sirius42 wrote:
As an aside, in my area while GW and forgeworld are almost treated as seperate entities, many conversations go along the lines of 'GW, man its expensive,' 'yeah but did you see the preview of all the cool new stuff forgeworld are doing', kinda like GW's hot elder sister, you have to hang out with gw to hang out with the hotness. However that does not seem to be the case in this thread, i find it odd.


anyway back to the topic on hand, I can see both sides of this 'report it its theft' and 'let GW fight their own battles' seem to be the 2 camps coming out of this thread, (with a small minority in camp 3 going 'Buy Buy Buy'). I find myself inclined to agree with the report it crowd, if only because it hurts the hobby and I have quite a lot of goodwill towards the forgeworld branch of the hobby.

Going back to the speeding comment earlier.... REALLY? you'd really own up to speeding and turn yourself in? I find that baffling

How do you feel it hurts the hobby?

It hurts GW, unless you subscribe to the school of thought that recast sales would never have been GW sales, but the hobby? Not really. If anything, if people are buying a wider variety of units and playing them, then surely the hobby is more diverse and interesting?

Unless you're making the fairly crucial error of conflating GW games and wargaming as the 'hobby?'

I've already made the point that non-GW recasts are thin on the ground, so damage to the hobby at large is surely limited?

 Grot 6 wrote:

Honestly?

You throw a tag on it to Feebay, ( heh heh..) and then move on. You do not owe anything other then a cursory nod, and call it a day. Brand loyalty doesn't really apply, its more a matter of- "Oh, another one of those..." because these small time recastors just disappear and reappear that randomly.

This - just tag it and let Ebay handle the problem. If they get flagged enough they'll get shut down, for a time. And then come back some time later with a new name and new paypal account most likely. There's not a lot you can do besides inconvenience them.

It's like pulling weeds. You know you should do it - but it feels very futile because new ones will just keep springing up.

 Ouze wrote:
... I find the idea that unpaid volunteers should scour the internet to defend their profit margins laughable.

They have unpaid people defending everything else they do, so why not this?

 insaniak wrote:
OK, folks, obligatory reminder time: Dakka does not, and can not, endorse any sort of IP infringement. That includes allowing discussion that wanders too far over the line into promoting it as well. Please keep that in mind, as inappropriate posts will be removed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sirius42 wrote:
...(unless forgeworld actually has a Chinese division?)..

They did for a time. There has been some speculation that at least some of the Forgeworld recasts floating around online probably came from illicit use of actual Forgeworld moulds in China, rather than recasting. Still dodgy, just for a slightly different reason - they still have no permission to be selling casts of Forgeworld models in either case.


Chinese recasters are often fairly open about what they do, as they don't see a problem with it due to the generally lax enforcement of copyright law in China. eBay will shut them down on the request of the OP owner, though.

I have a bit of experience with pirated models. I bought 3 Space Wolves packs for a good price from a Chinese seller who had a ton of GW models up for sale, but I was pretty annoyed when I discovered they were all recasts (the material is far more fragile than GW plastic, which is a problem on some of the thin pieces). About a week after I bought them, all of their GW stuff was gone, so obviously someone reported them.

I also got a FW SW Dreadnought for a decent price from a Russian seller, and while I didn't notice anything off about the model, the fact that it came from Russia is usually a good indicator of a recast.

I, er, also happen to know a recaster. I haven't bought or gotten anything from them, but I've seen some of their stuff and it was damn good quality. They're even learning how to dye the resin to get it to look like GW plastic.

As for the moral issues, I'd rather stick with real GW stuff just because the quality tends to be better. However, GW's retail prices are too high for me to consider anymore, so when I buy, it's whatever I can manage to afford. If that means recasts, then I won't defer to them, but it's an option.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I, er, also happen to know a recaster. I haven't bought or gotten anything from them, but I've seen some of their stuff and it was damn good quality. They're even learning how to dye the resin to get it to look like GW plastic.

See, this would be crossing a line for me. One thing that I've seen on most of the stuff for sale that is recast is either overt or implied notice that it is recast, which would make it easy for anyone who cared to assess the risks (location or price being the implied, some ads simply stating outright that they're 'replicas' or similar)

Learning how to dye the resin suggests an attempt to deceive, which, and the irony isn't lost in me, takes some of the 'honesty' out of the transaction. Ripping off a company's IP may be illegal, one may personally feel it is morally wrong, but going out of your way to deceive your customer too is crossing a line for me.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Sirius42 wrote:
As an aside, in my area while GW and forgeworld are almost treated as seperate entities, many conversations go along the lines of 'GW, man its expensive,' 'yeah but did you see the preview of all the cool new stuff forgeworld are doing', kinda like GW's hot elder sister, you have to hang out with gw to hang out with the hotness. However that does not seem to be the case in this thread, i find it odd.


anyway back to the topic on hand, I can see both sides of this 'report it its theft' and 'let GW fight their own battles' seem to be the 2 camps coming out of this thread, (with a small minority in camp 3 going 'Buy Buy Buy'). I find myself inclined to agree with the report it crowd, if only because it hurts the hobby and I have quite a lot of goodwill towards the forgeworld branch of the hobby.

Going back to the speeding comment earlier.... REALLY? you'd really own up to speeding and turn yourself in? I find that baffling

How do you feel it hurts the hobby?

It hurts GW, unless you subscribe to the school of thought that recast sales would never have been GW sales, but the hobby? Not really. If anything, if people are buying a wider variety of units and playing them, then surely the hobby is more diverse and interesting?

Unless you're making the fairly crucial error of conflating GW games and wargaming as the 'hobby?'

I've already made the point that non-GW recasts are thin on the ground, so damage to the hobby at large is surely limited?

Maybe hurting the hobby was the wrong choice of phrase, It does come back to the fact that this is a forgeworld item and in my experience they have always been very good about everything, they do previews, talk about their planned rules and releases, their customer service (I damaged a couple of parts on my warhound and they sent me replacements free of charge, with no fuss, I was super impressed, as It came up in a casual conversation while putting in my gamesday preorder, I was not even asking for replacements, they just offered) and basically they act like GW used to. This means that I have a lot of goodwill towards them, by buying and enabling the recasters I feel it damages some of that goodwill.

as for GW as the hobby, until about a month ago it was the only show in town so in essence it was the hobby (although loads of guys have recently picked up bolt action). I realize there are other games out there but the driving force behind all wargaming here was until very recently GW.

Here's my take (which also, nicely avoids the whole "GW is a load of jerks" conundrum):

Is the seller honestly telling the buyers that he is recasting GW product?

If not, he's misleading his buyers. Maybe you aren't taken in, but somebody may be. Report him. He is a dishonest seller. He is selling one thing as another. Reporting him protects other buyers who might not recognize this state of events.

I would do that for someone recasting Victoria Miniatures, or Kromlech, or Privateer Press, and I'd do it for Forgeworld and GW, too. Regardless of whether the company is a single bloke laboring in his garage or a bunch of faceless suits, the seller is misleading his buyers.

If the seller claims that something is a GW sculpt when it isn't, it should get reported (or at least, corrected). If the seller says that all the parts are there, and they aren't, it should get corrected. If the seller says that it is metal and it is resin, it should get corrected. It's not a GW (or Forgeworld) piece if it is a recast.

It's not about protecting GW. It's about protecting the buyer by enforcing truth-telling on the seller. You aren't the IP police, or GW's rescue team. You are an ebay member who sees someone misleading other people. I don't expect you to scour over listings looking for fraud, but if you see something fraudulent, you should report it, to protect other people. I would hope that other people would do the same for you.







Now, for an advanced question, if the seller knows that something is a recast, and deliberately conceals that fact, then, perhaps, you might also consider that he is willing to mislead buyers to get a sale. It might lead one to wonder about the seller's business ethics.

Da Butcha has summed up my feelings nicely.

Also, as others have said - Forge World is the one branch of GW that does not tick me off.

Even though their prices are, in general, even higher than the standard GW I do not feel like they are ripping folks off - so buying recasts of Forge World actually serves as a deterrent for the rest of GW cleaning up their acts.

If folks do not think that GW is giving value for money... then they should change games, not reward pirates.

Or, if you like the GW games then buy figures from Kromlech, Raging Heroes, Avatars of War, Victoria Lamb, Game Zone, Mantic, Chapterhouse, Scibold, or any of a number of other 3rd party miniatures crafters - many are better value for money and some are just straight up better miniatures.

The Auld Grump

Stranger83 wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
The law is the law I don't see why would would report some crimes being commited but not others.

The law may certainly be the law, but everyone has their own set of morals/ethics.
Besides, laws can be disregarded at times.

And, speaking of reporting some crimes and not others, I assume you make a personal appearance to the police station on your own initiative every time you go over the speed limit while driving? It is the law, after all.

I never said that people cannot have their own set of morals - there is plenty that is Illegal that I think shouldn't be, and plenty of things that are not illegal that I think should be - but me thinking something shouldn;t be illegal doesn't change the fact that it is.

I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

But if for some reason I did go over the speed limit - maybe some kind of emergency - then yes I would do this, and explain my reasoning and take any punishment they deemed required

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read, even for the internet.

As far as recasts go, I don't see the harm. Some random guy on Ebay selling plastic models is somehow going to bankrupt a massive corporation? Yeah, sure. Recasters are simply a symptom of a much larger problem with GW's business model, practices, and pricing. If they do somehow manage to "lose business" because of a recaster, good! Maybe they'll consider coming down to earth on their insane prices and treating their customers with a bit more respect.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I, er, also happen to know a recaster. I haven't bought or gotten anything from them, but I've seen some of their stuff and it was damn good quality. They're even learning how to dye the resin to get it to look like GW plastic.

See, this would be crossing a line for me. One thing that I've seen on most of the stuff for sale that is recast is either overt or implied notice that it is recast, which would make it easy for anyone who cared to assess the risks (location or price being the implied, some ads simply stating outright that they're 'replicas' or similar)

Learning how to dye the resin suggests an attempt to deceive, which, and the irony isn't lost in me, takes some of the 'honesty' out of the transaction. Ripping off a company's IP may be illegal, one may personally feel it is morally wrong, but going out of your way to deceive your customer too is crossing a line for me.

Yeah, I hate counterfeiters that don't have good morals....

OP you would have spent less effort flagging this up to eBay and cc-ing in GW than it would have taken to post here and angry up the natives. I'd do it happily as I'll have no truck with forgery/counterfeit/piracy on any product.

There seems to be a distinct core of cheapness in gaming that will try to justify their behaviour by blaming GW (the victim? ) and their heinous business practices, the chap above that justifies it because of the rules is a real gem.

This is all very much a thin end of the wedge issue. There are rules in society that we all should follow and censure for those that do not. If we excuse this then why stop there; why recast when you can shoplift etc?

It's like those bell ends that leave shopping trolleys in the car park and don't put them back in their little Perspex corrals with their shopping trolley mates or litterbugs or people eating BK in Maccy Ds. The next thing you know Tina Turner's in charge and we are in the Terrordome chanting "two men enter, one man leaves".

But seriously just report it.

I know its a little bit late to post this but a budday of mine got a recast Russ he rang forgeworld about it to let them know aswell as reporting the ebayer, forgeworld in turn asked for it to be sent in and they replaced it for free as thanks for giving them a heads up.

 notprop wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I, er, also happen to know a recaster. I haven't bought or gotten anything from them, but I've seen some of their stuff and it was damn good quality. They're even learning how to dye the resin to get it to look like GW plastic.

See, this would be crossing a line for me. One thing that I've seen on most of the stuff for sale that is recast is either overt or implied notice that it is recast, which would make it easy for anyone who cared to assess the risks (location or price being the implied, some ads simply stating outright that they're 'replicas' or similar)

Learning how to dye the resin suggests an attempt to deceive, which, and the irony isn't lost in me, takes some of the 'honesty' out of the transaction. Ripping off a company's IP may be illegal, one may personally feel it is morally wrong, but going out of your way to deceive your customer too is crossing a line for me.

Yeah, I hate counterfeiters that don't have good morals....

OP you would have spent less effort flagging this up to eBay and cc-ing in GW than it would have taken to post here and angry up the natives. I'd do it happily as I'll have no truck with forgery/counterfeit/piracy on any product.

There seems to be a distinct core of cheapness in gaming that will try to justify their behaviour by blaming GW (the victim? ) and their heinous business practices, the chap above that justifies it because of the rules is a real gem.

This is all very much a thin end of the wedge issue. There are rules in society that we all should follow and censure for those that do not. If we excuse this then why stop there; why recast when you can shoplift etc?

It's like those bell ends that leave shopping trolleys in the car park and don't put them back in their little Perspex corrals with their shopping trolley mates or litterbugs or people eating BK in Maccy Ds. The next thing you know Tina Turner's in charge and we are in the Terrordome chanting "two men enter, one man leaves".

But seriously just report it.

Yes, clearly, this would be the start of an all-out societal breakdown - anarchy would ensue within the next two weeks if these fiends are not punished and punished severely. Honestly, you're equating buying a recast plastic model to shoplifting? I guess all those people who are using "counts-as" models are doing the same thing because, after all, they're opting to take money out of GWs pocket by not paying outrageous prices for little hunks of plastic.

He very clearly did NOT equate buying recasts with shoplifting, he claimed it was the next step down the ladder.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to say that participating in IP infringement is a crime which is in the same family as actual retail theft. They may not be the same crime, but they are certainly related. As Jules might say, they might not be in the same ballpark, but they certainly ARE the same sport.

Now, THAT being said, I think that the morality of the situation is pretty subjective here. I certainly wouldn't report them. (Ever since I heard about what happens to WoW gold farmers who can't make their quotas, I've been a little more leery about reporting criminal activity in the gaming community that involves possible Asian prison laborers. )

When it comes to the law, it all comes down to a judgment call on how far you're willing to take it. Would I buy a stolen Rolex? No. But I wouldn't call the cops on a guy who offered me one, either. Of course, I also break the speed limit if I'm in a hurry.

 Jimsolo wrote:
He very clearly did NOT equate buying recasts with shoplifting, he claimed it was the next step down the ladder.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to say that participating in IP infringement is a crime which is in the same family as actual retail theft. They may not be the same crime, but they are certainly related. As Jules might say, they might not be in the same ballpark, but they certainly ARE the same sport.

Now, THAT being said, I think that the morality of the situation is pretty subjective here. I certainly wouldn't report them. (Ever since I heard about what happens to WoW gold farmers who can't make their quotas, I've been a little more leery about reporting criminal activity in the gaming community that involves possible Asian prison laborers. )

When it comes to the law, it all comes down to a judgment call on how far you're willing to take it. Would I buy a stolen Rolex? No. But I wouldn't call the cops on a guy who offered me one, either. Of course, I also break the speed limit if I'm in a hurry.

They definitely don't use sweat-shops or slave labor to make the models. they have like 2-3 guys from a few locations that supply most companies recasts. (which just goes to show how not overly common it is) and there are a few people who work alone and make their models. At worst they have to make anew account if he is reported. But yea it doesnt take a horde of children to make a few recasts after talking to someone in that area of business.

A lot of the sellers are actually people who went to china to be teachers. In china western teachers are regarded as highly important. Its so easy for them to get jobs as teachers there so they go there to be a teacher and in their spare time make and sell recasts. I know a lot of people who spent a few years in china teaching (not for illegal activity just out of interest) so thats where a lot of it comes from.

So dont feel bad if you report the guy, he will just be delayed a while in his selling.

Stranger83 wrote:

I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

While I do it very single time I get behind the wheel; I drive to the road, not some arbitrary limit. 17 years of driving, not a single accident and th only time I have ever been caught I was taking my son to A&E.

As for recasts its not something that I would actively seek out but on the other hand if I wouldn't avoid them either and if I did buy one I wouldn't really care, as long as the quality was good. I do nearly all of my GW shopping on Ebay these days and I don't think that I have ever bought any recasts.

 Palindrome wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I've actually never gone over the speed limit - it's there for a reason.

While I do it very single time I get behind the wheel; I drive to the road, not some arbitrary limit. 17 years of driving, not a single accident and th only time I have ever been caught I was taking my son to A&E.

I fire my gun into a crowd all the time, No one has died yet! It must be safe!

I hear the same rational for drunk driving. "I am good at driving, I am in control, I have never had an accident or hurt anyone, The DUI limit is arbitrary." Until it DOES happen, and someone dies or is injured due to the drinking... Speed is no different. It is safe until it is not.

Just because you have never murdered anyone due to speeding doesn't mean others don't daily, and doesn't make it safe or acceptable.

Also, there are PP recasts and other companies on eBay. So everyone who justifies it because they madface hate GW is dodging the real issue as recasters hurt the industry as a whole and companies who are not GW. Recasts come in all sizes and all companies not just GW, those are just the easiest to spot because people are so familiar with their distribution process so we know they 'must' be fakes. Others are less easy to be seen but still exist and still hurt those companies.

nkelsch wrote:

I fire my gun into a crowd all the time, No one has died yet! It must be safe!

Yes, there is complete equivelence there.

 Palindrome wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

I fire my gun into a crowd all the time, No one has died yet! It must be safe!

Yes, there is complete equivelence there.

Well, Tell the person I know who is in jail for 'voluntary manslaughter' for killing someone while speeding.

Do your son a favor and don't flee the scene and you might be out before he graduates High school when kill someone from speeding.

Or you could not be selfish and simply not speed. Just because you can break a law once and no one gets hurt doesn't mean you can break the law always and never hurt anyone.

I have no idea why I bothered to read this thread.

S'funny, both times I hit a pedestrian I was going well under the speed limit. And if either of them had died, I STILL would have been charged with their deaths. Speeding does NOT equal killing someone, nor does it automatically equal voluntary manslaughter.

I understand if you have a strong preference for people following the law. That's a reasonable standpoint. If you want to take the point of view that the rules are there for a reason, and once we start picking and choosing which rules to follow, the whole system becomes essentially moot, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. (Some people might still disagree with you, but you'd be arguing a rational point of view.)

The rather extremist version of this you've been championing seems to be a little un-reasonable, however. And claiming that you've NEVER broken the law is so improbable that it's literally incredible. I cannot give that credibility.

nkelsch wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

I fire my gun into a crowd all the time, No one has died yet! It must be safe!

Yes, there is complete equivelence there.

Well, Tell the person I know who is in jail for 'voluntary manslaughter' for killing someone while speeding.

Do your son a favor and don't flee the scene and you might be out before he graduates High school when kill someone from speeding.

Or you could not be selfish and simply not speed. Just because you can break a law once and no one gets hurt doesn't mean you can break the law always and never hurt anyone. Doing something knowingly dangerous to others and can result in people's death means when the result is death due to your actions, you will likely get charged with a similar charge regardless if you are speeding or firing a gun at random. Knowingly putting others at risk and causing a death is all they need to hang their hat on.

Aaaaaannnnd this thread has been derailed me thinks..

Mods, I think this is a good time to lock up

nkelsch wrote:

Well, Tell the person I know who is in jail for 'voluntary manslaughter' for killing someone while speeding.

He is quite obviously not me. There is driving to the road and then there is driving dangerously, I do the former.

 Jimsolo wrote:
S'funny, both times I hit a pedestrian I was going well under the speed limit. And if either of them had died, I STILL would have been charged with their deaths. Speeding does NOT equal killing someone, nor does it automatically equal voluntary manslaughter.

I understand if you have a strong preference for people following the law. That's a reasonable standpoint. If you want to take the point of view that the rules are there for a reason, and once we start picking and choosing which rules to follow, the whole system becomes essentially moot, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. (Some people might still disagree with you, but you'd be arguing a rational point of view.)

The rather extremist version of this you've been championing seems to be a little un-reasonable, however. And claiming that you've NEVER broken the law is so improbable that it's literally incredible. I cannot give that credibility.

But speeding means you are rolling the dice of doing an action which puts others at risk and simply hoping it doesn't happen. When it does, if you were found to be breaking the law at the time, that is the difference between a ticket and prison. If you would have killed a jaywalker, and didn't flee the scene and were not otherwise breaking any traffic laws, you are not getting voluntary manslaugter, and you probably will not be charged at all for the death. If you were speeding, get a good lawyer.

And no, I never speed, I do not knowingly break the law. I live in an area where there are literally 1000+ speed camera, red light cameras and other cameras within a few miles of my home and work. We have cameras which give tickets for making a right turn on red without coming to a full and complete stop. I have been rear ended twice for stopping at red lights because people are so prone to rolling through intersections. It is a 75$ insta photo ticket here. We even have cameras on all our school busses for people who do not stop at bus stop signs.

So I have never broken the law, and do everything in my power to not to, unlike someone who not only admits to speeding but champions active disregard of speeding because "I haven't killed anyone yet!" and does so with their children in the car.

I see no difference between the people who say 'Pirating minis is OK because I hate GW' and those who pirate other companies stuff. Wrong is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Palindrome wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Well, Tell the person I know who is in jail for 'voluntary manslaughter' for killing someone while speeding.

He is quite obviously not me. There is driving to the road and then there is driving dangerously, I do the former.

You don't get to make that call... And basically your 'driving to the road' becomes 'driving dangerously' when you murder someone due to speeding. They are both exactly the same.