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There is no question that you can make GW models for less cost than they sell them for, their report clearly indicates an operating profit of 73%.

If anything FW has become less expensive (comparatively) than the rest of the range. Plus WH30k is a massive development for them. I'd go so far as to say (guess) FW are doing pretty good.

So purely for selfish reasons counterfeiters can go to hell if their existence even slightly impinges on the possibility that FW might not make something.

 notprop wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Re-casters will only recast stuff that has merit only, GW, Forgeworld, and PP has miniatures that are in a price range to make copies.

On the Moral side, Those GW casts come close to Brand copies i see here in Asia, i have seen Lego and Gundam toy copies in Vietnam (just in the wrong colors) all made in China.

In Western countries GW use legal powers to shut down re-casters, But in China and Russia, not much is done about IP infringement.

And this gives me a funny thought. If the source cannot be controlled, could GW look for angle to mitigate the medium through which the sales are made. I.e. GW approached eBay over the repeated sale of copies.

This wouldn't necessarily mean court case, possibly eBay withdrawing GW product actegories en masse from the site. Highly unlikely but it would certainly be a step toward limiting availability of recasts.

I'm not sure what the legal basis for this would be, the Japanese computer game industry has been trying for years to prevent re-sale of their goods. And that's an industry far more powerful and wealthy than the miniature wargames market.

Aside from the fact that re-casts probably make up the tiniest percentage of ebay sales. I could see how it would be a benefit however for GW, denying the sale of 2nd hand goods would benefit GW a magnitude more than stopping counterfeiters.

True, but the Japanese games companies fall down because private citizens can do what they wish with their possessions. A counterfeiter cannot.

I could easily see a big company dropping a category to avoid a niggling problem if the legal basis of a minor part of their trades was a bit shaky.

 Consul Scipio wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
...Personally I would go for half price GW/FW recasts (of identical or superior quality to originals) every time without even a pang of guilt...

I've been shown by friends* some Chinese recasts and if it's to be believed then the Chinese or at least one company is now making higher quality GW product at half the price.

This is a not insignificant part of the problem. I've seen a perfect, and I mean perfect, all-resin (so automatically at least part recast!) storm eagle kit - dude pulled it out of the box, pinky swore and all he hadn't even hot water bent anything into shape and it pretty much just fit together straight off.
Now there were some slightly more awful than what I was used to from forgeworld from way back casting blocks attached - but nothing that wouldn't be solved with a few min. work and a decent saw.

If you've ever seen storm eagle build logs - this speaks volumes.

I also own two recast ironclad mkIV dreads - I had FW (legit!) versions, which both looked at least moderately horrible to get up to spec (bubbles, warping, mold shifting - the general lazy QC/casting quality from FW) which I bloody well replaced with chinese recasts at $36 incl. shipping for two (bodies, not including arms); I gave them a quick rinse, removed a few blocks and some flash, and had two nigh-perfect dreads (minus arms, again) in under two hours.

TBH, it doesn't really matter much to me anymore - no GW/FW purchases for more than a year, now - but after having had some experience with Mierce's quality (same price range, I'd say somewhat cheaper even) - I just refuse to pay the ridiculous prices for FW stuff for anything, no matter how much I'd want the kit anymore.
Cheap second hand, sure. Recast, feth, I don't think I'd mind just skipping the extremely disappointing FW legit step TBH.

TL;DR: Yes, the recasters have overtaken FW in cast quality. Insane, but there you are: if you want a good cast - don't go legit. (nb.: not actual advice )

 notprop wrote:
There is no question that you can make GW models for less cost than they sell them for, their report clearly indicates an operating profit of 73%.

If anything FW has become less expensive (comparatively) than the rest of the range. Plus WH30k is a massive development for them. I'd go so far as to say (guess) FW are doing pretty good.

So purely for selfish reasons counterfeiters can go to hell if their existence even slightly impinges on the possibility that FW might not make something.

Hear, hear!

The number one reason that I do not support piracy - if I am willing to use/read/play a product then I also want to support its creator.

For that same reason - I tend to buy from indie companies more often than the bigger names (Paizo and Reaper to the contrary) I want to feel a connection to my collection. (Both Paizo and Reaper act like smaller companies - with the brass of each of them being active in the community.)

The Auld Grump

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Law and morals aren't the same thing.

Personally I would go for half price GW/FW recasts (of identical or superior quality to originals) every time without even a pang of guilt.

 Sirius42 wrote:
Ok, so I think we have gone off on a tangent here, lets get back ot, this is not about speeding or buying recasts, simply about should you report someone if you know they are making fake models for a fact (there are plenty of Russian and Chinese sellers on ebay whom are likely selling recasts but you cant be sure). lets widen it a little and say any models, not just GW?

Maybe grow up and don't ask random strangers on the internet to provide you a moral compass and tell you how strongly you should enforce it. If you feel you should report him, do it. Otherwise don't.

It wouldn't be the internet without at least one personal jab would it. My apologies if this thread causes you distress, but nobody forced you to post. As for why I've put the thread up, i'm intrigued to hear how others feel on the issue, which seems to be the point of internet forms surely, to discuss things with random strangers?

My friend bought some recast Mechanicus and Elysium pieces and placed a Forgeworld order. The recast pieces were cheaper, cleaner and easier to assemble, with no loss of detail as far as could be seen.

If I was to get back into GW games I'd have no hesitation using them.

I bought several recasts and will not be buying any more. All were poorly cast, with bubbles and deformed pieces, and the resin was very brittle and hard to cut or clean up. I'd rather pay double for genuine FW, although I'd never purchase their large vehicles.

If you don't want to buy GW models then there are plenty of other products. I would never buy re-casts and have reported sellers in the past. Same as I've reported things to GW like that army builder program from overseas that used IP.

Theft is theft, no matter your opinions against a company in my opinion.

 Kelly502 wrote:
You should let GW know. Wrong is wrong. I have been at several conventions where I met recasters on site selling fake GW recasts. I bought some, and sent them into GW with all the information I had been able to gather. Of course I didn't let the recasters on to what I did.

Holmes is that you? Good thing we have you on the case, and with enough money to blow on recasts. GW must love you. I am glad you are in this world seriously and without sarcasm unlike the first 3 lines. People of the highest moral fiber balance out those with none.

In all earnestness if you want an actual forge world mini buy from fething forge world. I suspect honestly in some form you knew you could possibly get a non-licensed item when you clicked bid. You want to be for sure you have to pay a premium. You wouldn’t buy a watch from someone say this is a Rolex without some verification, right? You would if you are in the Rolex store and the guy says this is a Rolex. If you do that then you will pay a premium. But if I by my “Rolex” on ebay for 15$ guess what chances are it’s a fake. So either your daft or gullible.

I generally don't have an issue with recasts, in certain circumstances they are at least to me OK.

If someone converted a model and made castings of it for his army, or they need multiples of a specific head/body/weapon option I don't have an issue with that.

If they want to make castings of tank treads to use in scenery or a blown up obstacle etc. That to me is fine.

It's what happens when they decide to sell the army, give it away or if they are recasting specifically for reselling the models.

I've seen recasts of Privateer Press Gargantuans, Battle Engines and Retribution Cavalry being sold/traded. No Colossals or "regular" models though.

As game systems get bigger you will see more recasts. GW is the most visible due to their size and the popularity of the game. When it comes to cost of models many other companies are just as expensive. I think the reason we don't see as many recasts for those companies is the popularity of those games isn't big enough yet.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Same as I've reported things to GW like that army builder program from overseas that used IP.

Yeah! Who the hell did those guys think they were, making something like that to try and improve the wargaming community to replace that non-existent Games Workshop product?! You sure showed them! They're not going to be making that massive amount of (zero) dollars are they now, stolen from those hard working GW designers who have completely come up with all of their own ideas - ha!

A sterling fellow - I'm glad we have people like this in society, willing to fight the good fight for the high profile legal departments of large, faceless corporations, in the face of the ruthless teenager copy and pasting GW pics from their basement!

PS - I hate you for forcing me to write such a massively sarcastic, bitchy sounding post..

 Pacific wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Same as I've reported things to GW like that army builder program from overseas that used IP.

Yeah! Who the hell did those guys think they were, making something like that to try and improve the wargaming community to replace that non-existent Games Workshop product?! You sure showed them! They're not going to be making that massive amount of (zero) dollars are they now, stolen from those hard working GW designers who have completely come up with all of their own ideas - ha!

A sterling fellow - I'm glad we have people like this in society, willing to fight the good fight for the high profile legal departments of large, faceless corporations, in the face of the ruthless teenager copy and pasting GW pics from their basement!

PS - I hate you for forcing me to write such a massively sarcastic, bitchy sounding post..

You really liked the song 'The John Birch Society', didn't you?

(The fact that I can sing that song... says something about my world view....)

The Auld Grump

 Azazelx wrote:

I may be misremembering, but I think they tried that one on once, a few years ago and eBay told them to go jump. First Sale doctrine and all. Which of course makes such requests essentially illegal.

They've been trying to stamp out sales of new products on eBay and other auction sites since at least 2009, it was one of their attacks on any internet sales that aren't from their own website.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Same as I've reported things to GW like that army builder program from overseas that used IP.

Yeah! Who the hell did those guys think they were, making something like that to try and improve the wargaming community to replace that non-existent Games Workshop product?! You sure showed them! They're not going to be making that massive amount of (zero) dollars are they now, stolen from those hard working GW designers who have completely come up with all of their own ideas - ha!

A sterling fellow - I'm glad we have people like this in society, willing to fight the good fight for the high profile legal departments of large, faceless corporations, in the face of the ruthless teenager copy and pasting GW pics from their basement!

PS - I hate you for forcing me to write such a massively sarcastic, bitchy sounding post..

You really liked the song 'The John Birch Society', didn't you?

(The fact that I can sing that song... says something about my world view....)

The Auld Grump

There are plenty of products out there that have been very careful with not using GW IP, try some of those.

 notprop wrote:


Yeah, I hate counterfeiters that don't have good morals....

OP you would have spent less effort flagging this up to eBay and cc-ing in GW than it would have taken to post here and angry up the natives. I'd do it happily as I'll have no truck with forgery/counterfeit/piracy on any product.

There seems to be a distinct core of cheapness in gaming that will try to justify their behaviour by blaming GW (the victim? ) and their heinous business practices, the chap above that justifies it because of the rules is a real gem.

This is all very much a thin end of the wedge issue. There are rules in society that we all should follow and censure for those that do not. If we excuse this then why stop there; why recast when you can shoplift etc?

I would like to point out that i like counterfeiters that have good morals. And I don't mind people recasting miniatures, but I do have a problem with people shoplifting.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Ever heard of 'receiving stolen goods'?
Having bought illegal goods, it's your responsibility to report the sale.
Not that recasting is exactly the same thing, but I'm sure it's close.

Hey there Braniac. Given your smartarse tone, I'm going to suggest that you re-read the exact point what I was replying to. Then you can apologise for the snarky tone and we can start again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
.....

TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Legally acquired being the hook for that US law.

If eBay cannot ensure they are repeatedly allowing/enabling the sale of counterfeit goods (how can you tell with some painted models?) then and they are shown to be unable to police this eBay might choose to pull (I'm guessing?) a minor category or to mitigate their risk. As I say entirely unlikely but a curious possibility.

Please tell me how eBay can "ensure" that about every category of items they sell? Obviously, it's impossible. So using your (flawed) logic they should pretty much pull most categories, amirite?

If you think that the majority, or even a significant number of Warhammer sales on eBay are of recasts, then you're seriously deluded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 derek wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

I may be misremembering, but I think they tried that one on once, a few years ago and eBay told them to go jump. First Sale doctrine and all. Which of course makes such requests essentially illegal.

They've been trying to stamp out sales of new products on eBay and other auction sites since at least 2009, it was one of their attacks on any internet sales that aren't from their own website.

Thank you sir.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 derek wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

I may be misremembering, but I think they tried that one on once, a few years ago and eBay told them to go jump. First Sale doctrine and all. Which of course makes such requests essentially illegal.

They've been trying to stamp out sales of new products on eBay and other auction sites since at least 2009, it was one of their attacks on any internet sales that aren't from their own website.

Thank you sir.

In Australia we have a similar set of laws under the Competition and Consumer Act 2010. Clear Title [Part 3-2, Division 1, Subdivision A, 51] (when you buy something, the 'title' of the good or 'right' is given to the consumer as part of the transaction) states that all consumers have the right to resell any goods sold to them unless explicitly stated by the supplier before the transaction that they have only been granted Limited Title (a different kettle of fish). Furthermore, consumers are protected by the Undisturbed Possession of Goods [Part 3-2, Division 1, Subdivision A, 52] which means that such goods cannot be repossessed unless it is leased/hired good (see: Limited Title) or they have not met the terms of the sale, lease or hire of said good.

Furthermore, for goods not sold at auction (BIN on eBay is not classified as an auction item) if they are not of acceptable quality or fit for purpose [or in several other circumstances], can be returned from a refund. This cannot be bypassed by any contract or signage ('no refunds' is considered too broad a statement and therefore misleading and an infringement on consumer rights to which there is a guarantee under Australian Consumer Law). The funny thing is that consumers aren't even allowed to surrender the right to a refund (even if you never claim it, you are nonetheless always entitled to one regardless [within a reasonable period]). These of course don't apply to 'change of mind', and only in occurrences wherein a good would not satisfy one or more of the guarantees.

The Division Of Joy wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Same as I've reported things to GW like that army builder program from overseas that used IP.

Yeah! Who the hell did those guys think they were, making something like that to try and improve the wargaming community to replace that non-existent Games Workshop product?! You sure showed them! They're not going to be making that massive amount of (zero) dollars are they now, stolen from those hard working GW designers who have completely come up with all of their own ideas - ha!

A sterling fellow - I'm glad we have people like this in society, willing to fight the good fight for the high profile legal departments of large, faceless corporations, in the face of the ruthless teenager copy and pasting GW pics from their basement!

PS - I hate you for forcing me to write such a massively sarcastic, bitchy sounding post..

You really liked the song 'The John Birch Society', didn't you?

(The fact that I can sing that song... says something about my world view....)

The Auld Grump

There are plenty of products out there that have been very careful with not using GW IP, try some of those.

At this point I am likely to choose Battleship over anything by GW - and since GW has tried to claim skulls, fur, Roman Numerals, Space Marines, grenade launchers, standard tactical symbols, Michael Moorcock's Chaos star, dark elves and many, many, many more things as their unique IP...

Nah, I think that I will just ignore any advice that you choose to give - because I'm pretty sure that GW is going to run out of words in the dictionary before they run out of IP that they are willing to try to claim.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* I will also point out that I have stated, repeatedly, that I do not support piracy - if I think that a GW miniature is over priced then I don't buy it - which is part of the reason that I have not bought any GW figures since a store went out of business and had a sale - so, I will buy Chapterhouse, Kromlech, Raging Heroes, Reaper, Avatars of War, Stonehaven, Cool Mini or Not, Mantic, Heresy, Artizan, Gamezone, heck, even Soda Pop - but I will not buy GW, both for their prices and their attitude of 'we own everything'.

A lot of people in this thread have a lot of "friends" that have "shown them" recasts of GW product. *wink wink nudge nudge.*


Here's a hypothetical for everyone to chew on. What if the recast is of a mini GW no longer sells? Since there's no way for you to give GW money for aforementioned OOP mini - is it still immoral? Or is the recaster just doing everyone a favor by keeping old sculpts on the market?

I consider such models to be similar to abandonware. They might still be protected, but the company doesn't seem to have any interest in them.

What makes matters worse is the fact that many companies are using limited edition models as part of their sales strategy. The question is then, is the fact that they're no longer produced not part of the appeal? After all, that's what's making them limited. So they're "abandoned" as part of a deliberate marketing strategy.

Personally, I'm in favour of keeping such products in circulation by whatever means possible. But then again, I'm probably biased as I'm very strongly against the excessive use of limited edition models we see today.

But from a legal standpoint, as long as the models are protected by law, recasting them is illegal and the reason they were abandoned doesn't matter. Just stating the obvious...

*EDIT*

Whoops, wrong thread... :S

Immoral is something I leave for the local preachers - they are quite well acquainted with immorality. Some have even been charged. That and its place in the "laws of god".

I worry only about the laws of man.

IP infringement isn't "Theft" - yes, it's a technicality, but it's a LEGAL technicality and the RULE of LAW is built around technicalities. IP law is also a hodge-podge mish-mash of clashing issues and in need of a serious enema.

While yes, it's a breach of law, It's a breach of CIVIL law, and not subject to the same penalties as a breach of CRIMINAL law would be. IP theft is NOT a criminal act, but an act of CIVIL disobedience.

I have friends with forged FW models (and they ALSO have real FW models and those fakes were better casts. MY only FW stuff consists of one model (night spinner) and a bunch of turrets, all of which I got 2nd hand. Some of the turrets had bent guns, so I'm in no doubt as to their provenance. )

GW is an evil corporation who probably employs more lawyers than game designers. I neither encourage or discourage recasters from selling their wares, but I still hold that the recasting market is a symptom of a greater overall problem, and that problem involves GW's business practices and pricing. Say what you will, but I certainly won't be going out of my way to help that company with anything let alone making money.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Ever heard of 'receiving stolen goods'?
Having bought illegal goods, it's your responsibility to report the sale.
Not that recasting is exactly the same thing, but I'm sure it's close.

Hey there Braniac. Given your smartarse tone, I'm going to suggest that you re-read the exact point what I was replying to. Then you can apologise for the snarky tone and we can start again.

After re-reading what I put, I could have worded that post better, so sorry about that. I should have quoted more than just the bit I did, as it was more relevant to the post your post's post was replying to.
But the point still stands.
I read your post as "I bought something, can sell it on if I want, and GW can do nothing about it.".
What I was referring to was "I bought something, I made recasts of it, and I want to sell that without GW getting involved."

But, I hate bran, so there's that.

 Azazelx wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
.....

TLR - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.

Legally acquired being the hook for that US law.

If eBay cannot ensure they are repeatedly allowing/enabling the sale of counterfeit goods (how can you tell with some painted models?) then and they are shown to be unable to police this eBay might choose to pull (I'm guessing?) a minor category or to mitigate their risk. As I say entirely unlikely but a curious possibility.

Please tell me how eBay can "ensure" that about every category of items they sell? Obviously, it's impossible. So using your (flawed) logic they should pretty much pull most categories, amirite?

If you think that the majority, or even a significant number of Warhammer sales on eBay are of recasts, then you're seriously deluded.

Hey there Braniac. Given your problem with smartarse tones you might not want to adopt one yourself.

I merely posited an interesting possibility as I saw it. Clearly you didn't comprehend that but there's really no need to get you knickers in a twist but by all means carry on as you wish to.

But to address the point you made, eBay is responsible for all trades that happens on its website - why else would they arbitrate disagreements and impose settlements? It just relys upon complaints being raised and in enough numbers or delivered with enough legal authority then yes I could see categories being dropped.

Most categories are not dropped because of money, however the point at which one category becomes so much of a problem that the costs to manage (or perceived risks) are outweighing the revenue on a category then they might drop it.