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I'm new to the 40k / anything gaming hobby.

I'm curious what a kickstarter is and how it works

Basically, it's where you start a project and a consortium of people boot you in the seat of your pants until you actually get on with it.

Either that, or it's where people invest in a project before the product/ range of products are released to help fund it and get it off the ground. Usually for the early investment, the business promises you loads of stuff for the fraction of the retail costs once the products are launched.

I like Zweischneid's explanation:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Kickstarter may no longer be the "support-entrepreneurs", but it's quickly becoming the gamer-version of "let's go shop together".

Spoiler:

It's a means of raising investor capital. You start a project with a funding goal, and people can pledge/donate money to help you reach your project. Usually there is some sort of reward to encourage donations.

A lot of bigger companies are using it as a super-advanced pre-order though; you generally get a pretty decent discount and some goodies for paying for something in the region of a year in advance (subject to delays).

Thankfully, there's a site that exists to tell you all about that.

http://www.kickstarter.com

You're not buying anything or investing in a product/company in a kickstarter in a legal sense despite the "common" terminology you'll see in threads like this. You're basically entering into a contract with a company to give them money and they will "reward" you with set items at a certain time. You're in effect throwing your money into a hole and hoping something comes out the other end at a later date that you like. The only things you can do if your project goes belly up is sue the company (in which the court costs would likely exceed your pledge even in small claims court assuming you could file there) or contest the charges if you use a credit card (which is subject to your card's time limitations on doing that). Kickstarting is definitely a "at your own risk" type of action. While companies in the tabletop gaming niche that rip you off completely are few and far between, the number of companies that either come out with a letdown product or bait and switch is much higher... and that doesn't include the typical 6 months to 1 year delay big minis projects seem to have typically. I realize the above is a rather pessimistic view of the whole crowdfunding thing but if you're considering going in on your first one you really should go in eyes wide open.

Thanks a lot for the insight guys

It's a plague upon the internet. Be steadfast, brother, against this onslaught of non-stop Kickstarters!

I always thought that it was something you did to start ,Motorcycle ,truck etc.When you get mad at at it.Or in the case of Vince NEil from Motley CRu is something the Emt did to him with a shot of Adernaline when he OD on MEth.

 warboss wrote:
You're not buying anything or investing in a product/company in a kickstarter in a legal sense despite the "common" terminology you'll see in threads like this. You're basically entering into a contract with a company to give them money and they will "reward" you with set items at a certain time. You're in effect throwing your money into a hole and hoping something comes out the other end at a later date that you like. The only things you can do if your project goes belly up is sue the company (in which the court costs would likely exceed your pledge even in small claims court assuming you could file there) or contest the charges if you use a credit card (which is subject to your card's time limitations on doing that). Kickstarting is definitely a "at your own risk" type of action. While companies in the tabletop gaming niche that rip you off completely are few and far between, the number of companies that either come out with a letdown product or bait and switch is much higher... and that doesn't include the typical 6 months to 1 year delay big minis projects seem to have typically. I realize the above is a rather pessimistic view of the whole crowdfunding thing but if you're considering going in on your first one you really should go in eyes wide open.

^ This, pretty much.

My big fear is that, one day, this whole Kickstarter hype will backfire with a major project crashing in spectacular style.

Unfortunately, many people seem to regard it as a place where you can pre-order stuff without realizing that it's not a "sale" and that they have very limited protecting if things go sour.

Worse, some companies (Mantic, I'm looking at you) have taken to treating it the same way. They ought to have the funds to do a project on their own, but they Kickstart it instead. Which is, at best, simply a way to do pre-orders (which, as I said, it isn't) and at worse it's a sign that they don't really have any funds available.

f2k wrote:


My big fear is that, one day, this whole Kickstarter hype will backfire with a major project crashing in spectacular style.

Unfortunately, many people seem to regard it as a place where you can pre-order stuff without realizing that it's not a "sale" and that they have very limited protecting if things go sour.

Worse, some companies (Mantic, I'm looking at you) have taken to treating it the same way. They ought to have the funds to do a project on their own, but they Kickstart it instead. Which is, at best, simply a way to do pre-orders (which, as I said, it isn't) and at worse it's a sign that they don't really have any funds available.

My guess is that over time bigger companies will standardize the pre-order type of kickstarter project to such a degree that they will have less problems. Of course there will always be a lot of much smaller projects that will crash and burn because of lack of experience and naivety .

It's a magical process that turns ideas in to hate and creativity in to ashes. Also you can get lots of cheap miniatures.

Others have addressed this, but basically the idea can be summed up in this example:

I have an idea. For a board game, for a movie, for a comic book series, etc, but I don't have the money to pull it off, and I don't think I can or I actually cannot get a loan, or an investment from venture capitalists, investors, etc.

So I pitch my idea on Kickstarter. If people like it enough that they want to see it happen, they give me money to execute the idea. Successful Kickstarters will have incentives to get people to give you money. For example, say I was making a miniatures game, I might offer to send you product worth $50 at MSRP for a $35 donation.

There's been some good stuff that's come from Kickstarters, and I am generally a fan of the concept behind kickstarter, and there are terrible ideas, or ideas that are too vague and offer no concrete plan, that don't get funded.

Issues arise from the fact that sometimes, even after the project is funded, it for whatever reason doesn't materialize; maybe the funds were mismanaged, maybe the plan had a critical flaw, maybe the people in charge get eaten by bears and there's no one to execute the project; then the backers are gak out of luck, if I'm not mistaken.

Also I, personally, am a bit put off when a biggish company like comes to the internet, hat in hand, asking for funding for a project that they really ought to be able to fund themselves. Also you'd better be prepared to wait; there was a Kickstarter I was interested in that finished funding like 11 months ago and I think only just recently finished sending out the rewards for their backers, and still won't be available at US retailers for a while.

Overall, I like it when it's used to fund something really cool that otherwise might not get made and provides perks to the backers. I like it significantly less (that is to say, not at all) when it's used as a glorified pre-order system.

Man, people are breaking this down way too much.

Kickstarter is like this:

HEY GUYS I GOT A COOL IDEA AND I'LL GIVE YOU STUFF IF YOU SUPPORT THIS IDEA

"O-okay... here's some money to make it happen..."

ALRIGHT I MADE MY IDEA HERE IS YOUR STUFF

or alternatively,

HEY GUYS I GOT A COOL IDEA AND I'LL GIVE YOU STUFF IF YOU SUPPORT THIS IDEA

"O-okay... here's some money to make it happen..."

NAH JK MY IDEA DIDN'T WORK OUT BUT I'M KEEPING YOUR MONEY

So it's a gamble. Somebody wants to "kickstart" an idea and you decide whether it's worthwhile to support or not. In some cases, established companies have tried it and it worked out well. But at no point are you guaranteed anything. Successful examples include WoK, Wasteland 2, and... I got nothing.

The few kickstarters I've backed have turned out excellently for me, and provided me with cheap miniatures, or allowed me to fund games that I wanted to be made. There is always the risk there that things will go tits up and you won't get exactly what you want, or (far more rarely) won't get anything at all, but if you choose your projects wisely, it's usually a pretty safe bet.

That said, if you're very picky about your products, it's often better to just wait until the product is released, to see it before you buy. Personally, I'm happy to get cheap minis, and I'm pretty easy going about what I get, and have been selective about which kickstarters I've backed, so it's worked out very well for me so far.

Examples where kickstarter worked and it led to genuinely awesome product you would have never seen before: Dreamforge

Example where you would have been better off lighting your money on fire as an offering to the dice gods: Defiance Games

Those two do a pretty good job of showing the reward/risk factor of kickstarter, respectively.

Research the heck out of anything you plan to back. Be skeptical, investigate their credentials, look up past work, etc. etc. etc.

And on top of that, proper kickstarters take time to get the "rewards" back to you. I simply take it as a given that any kickstarter I back will eventually suffer delays that will push back the stuff I ordered. I'm cool with this because I paid a good price and I know the product will be good, but some people aren't prepared for that because they think this is the equivalent of preordering the next Battlefield game at Gamestop. I've backed 2 so far, Dreamforge and Gavin Tyler's Winter War. Dreamforge is like a year behind schedule, but Mark keeps in contact with the backers and delivers top knotch product that surpassed what I was expecting to get. Gavin Tyler's Winter War is suffering a delay thanks to a broken casting machine, but he's kept constant contact with us, thrown in extras as an apology for delays, and has shown that he's making good minis for the money and is legitimately using it to further his business.

When kickstarter is used correctly, it is a massive boon to the industry, and benefits everyone. Dreamforge makes absolutely superb kits for a very competitive price, and his work would never have gotten to be released on this level had it not been for kickstarter giving him a large infusion of cash to start as well as showing his ideas were in high demand. I look forward to seeing Gavin Tyler's next projects, as he's doing a lot of work to fill gaps in WWII miniatures that no one else has attempted to fill, and I know that by pledging for the kickstarter I'm helping him reach that goal.

When kickstarter is used incorrectly, it's a glorified preorder service in best case scenarios, and a major ripoff at worst. The shenanigans with the Defiance Games kickstarter and the other kickstarters it was indirectly involved with are a good example of all of the many things that can go wrong. Another good example is the "Gates of Antares" kickstarter. It failed to reach funding, so nothing happened. No one had to pay, but the rules were delayed by a good year or so because of it.

In the Kickstarters that I have supported, I have never had one try to take my money and run.

I have actually had excellent return on all of the money that I have 'invested' in Kickstarters. (Mantic, I am looking at you I love your Kickstarters!)

The worst that has happened has been late product - where late meant about four months. (The Reaper Bones Kickstarter.)

In return I have gotten a ton of product, and the warm glow of having helped the industry.

My Kickstarters:
Kings of War (Mantic) - lots of minis, only a few real dud (the Men at Arms really are not very good). Less than half price. And my The Auld Grump handle in the book.
Bones (Reaper) - a big delay, but also really happy with everything that I got - lots and lots, and lots of minis, including some very nice undead dragons.
Zombicide (Guillotine and Cool Mini or Not) - lots of zeds, and a really fun game.
Dwarven Adventurers (Stonehaven) - lots of dwarf characters, and a couple of trolls, including one that I painted up and sold for more than the cost of my entire order.
Gnomish Adventurers (Stonehaven) - lots of gnome characters, and an armored troll.
Rappan Athuck (Frog God Games) - a really freakin' big dungeon crawl for Pathfinder.
Wastelands 2 (in Exile) - I played Wastelands 1 way back when the game was on the Commodore 64.... I had to get it.
Narbonic: the Perfect Collection - I discovered Narbonic during its final days, and loved it. The bound books now have my name in the back as a backer.

I have also backed an IndieGoGo project, and got some nice plastic zeds for modern gaming from Studio Miniatures.

Several projects are still in process - including Bones II, Elven Adventurers, The Covetous Poet's Adventure Creator and Solo GM Guidebook (due out in a matter of weeks), and Raging Heroes' Toughest Girls in the Galaxy (this last is the first and only to have me worried).

In addition, I am part of the crowdfunder for the new and expanded HeroQuest - I kind of had to join, HeroQuest was my girlfriend's introduction to fantasy gaming. (Plus, I still own two copies of the original game....)

Four projects that I have backed got cancelled - including one that was intended to fail.

The Kickstarter was for additional illustrations and handouts for E. N. World's Zeitgeist adventure path.

I am now just as glad that it failed - I was not impressed with the first parts of that adventure path, and I would have been stuck with the entire thing as the reward for my pledge. (Other folks like the adventures - but if I want to be on a railroad ride then I'll buy a ticket on Amtrack.)

Yeah, the head of the company did not like the idea of having a Kickstarter, so he nailed it to the floor to make sure that it wouldn't take off. (Yes, it ticked me off, how can you tell?)

In none of those cases did I lose any money - all were cancelled before the money was removed from my account.

But, I feel that in the main my 'investments' have paid off quite nicely.

When the next Kings of War Kickstarter happens, I will be in it. I am quite happy with the Mantic Kickstarters that I have backed, and am kicking myself for backing out of the Deadzone Kickstarter. (I have since bought the game... and love it.)

That said - I have heard of one or two horror stories, including The Doom That Came To Atlantic City. So a rip off can happen.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* I am also happy to say that most (though not all) of the Kickstarters that I have backed were for items that have sold much more product since the Kickstarter than during the Kickstarter. (The exception has been the Stonehaven miniatures, I think - and I could be wrong. The dwarfs and gnomes are quite nice.) For the companies that I have backed, Kickstarter has been an investment for the future, not just a fancy preorder.