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^ Not while the same person still owns the company it doesn't.

I remember when Mierce were running their kickstarter they were swearing blind that Rob Lane had nothing to do with the company and now we find out he still owns it.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Nope. Rich from Wayland has the right of it, and you have the wrong of it and you know it.

Do we know for a fact that Maelstrom couldn't climb out of its death spiral if Rich hadn't put a bullet through its head?

It was fairly clear there were financial problems as the sales got more and more drastic, but right up until the end the claim was that you were almost moved into a warehouse and the clearance sale was for stuff you didn't want to have to shift and then boom! liquidated. With another company appearing almost instantly with all the same details but "not Maelstrom".

b) I've absconded with any money; and c) that I've used money from Maelstrom to create a miniature manufacturer - because none of the above is the case, and the latter two is provable.

but your first instinct was to transfer assets to another shell company while continuing to hold a sale at Maelstrom and continually sending out emails promoting said sale. Nothing like ferreting away the family silver through the back door while the front one burns down is there?

Rob Lane seems keen to point out that he's legally in the clear from having to return any of the money taken from so many customer but doesn't want to acknowledge or respond to the points raised that Maelstrom was spinning the 'moving warehouse' story for long after it clearly couldn't have been a genuine possibility and that they were encouraging people to give them more money by having a series of sales while knowing that they would struggle to supply product. I think until points like this are addressed the customers left out of pocket by Maelstrom have every right to be upset with Rob Lane and Mierce Miniatures.

So much for the old protests that Rob Lane wasnt involved with MM when MG collapsed.

So glad I never gave them any money for either KS. If he is involved say hello to another DG fiasco - leopards never change their spots and the business world is full of serial criminals, clueless individuals who dont realize they are cluess and serial pheonixers who cannot manage a business if their life depended on it.
I am just not sure which one Rob belongs in.

Anyone who give MM money is taking a risk. Buy it from stores that have the items in stock. If MM does go under, please dont clog up forums whining about it.

I love his comment that the $1M in debts was wrong. It was only $500k. Like 1/2 a million is so much better.

And as for complaining about the other two companies, if he had actually run his business properly they wouldnt have been able to do that in the first place. Reminiscent of DG still whining about the take over of WGF.

Mierce Miniatures wrote:
Rob Lane here. It's time to break the silence and give you a few facts.

...

Fourthly, if any single one of you thinks that I personally have made money out of the death of Maelstrom, you'd be wrong and very ill-informed. I am personally £50,000 in debt, still, because of what happened - through credit cards and a personal loan - money that I pumped into Maelstrom in 2012 to try and stop the company going under.

That's not exactly comforting...

I think you have actually been smart not to respond to these discussions previously; at least, in the way you responded above. You have no right to be angry- a lot of people got ripped off when they got suckered in by the drastic sales at the end of Maelstrom Games.

And despite your saying you had planned it all along, the end result was that Mierce did indeed veritably rise from the ashes of Maelstrom Games...

I'm actually a huge fan of the way you're running Mierce Miniatures, so if the law has sided with you on the business side of things with the demise of Maelstrom Games, I would not engage on it further... you make yourself look pretty uncharitable and also not a very safe business bet.

Again, I say this as a fan of your Mierce models so far... I would be careful to turn over a new leaf in your communications as well, and that means not responding in the future like you did on the previous page here, if you want to be able to move on at all. Have a friendlier PR person respond next time, maybe

I am sorry to those who lost money to Maelstrom Games, but I do think that ship has well and truly sailed at this point... you're not going to get your money back and Mierce is apparently not being held liable to pay those debts, whether that seems right or wrong.

I'm glad the thread title was changed, as that wasn't helping the discussion, either. In the end, my mind still isn't made up on this... but for your own sake, I would not respond to things like this again, and simply focus on the excellent world building and models of Mierce.

 RiTides wrote:

Again, I say this as a fan of your Mierce models so far... I would be careful to turn over a new leaf in your communications as well, and that means not responding in the future like you did on the previous page here, if you want to be able to move on at all. Have a friendlier PR person respond next time, maybe

Too true. His responses in this thread have smacked of Mandelbaum, calling any critics trolls and such. Come on dude. Be a professional. What are you doing here anyway?

I seem to recall Maelstrom holding 'sales' long after it knew it could no longer supply product for older orders. In other words, stealing money from new customers to pay for goods for older customers. Whose money in turn was spent on other things(like creating Mierce Miniatures?).

What a load of old crock, Rob. Sure, it probably wasn't fun for you. But don't try and justify what was more or less blatant theft (aka, taking money for orders you knew you could not fulfill).

From my perspective, Mierce (and Rob) have delivered everything promised from KS1. They also returned the bulk of my KS2 pledge to me with no issues when some commissions (on my end) fell through and I had to pull back.

Totally understand people's frustration, but things happen, people react the best way they feel able to at the time.
They have won my support, and continue to impress with the artists they work with and quality they maintain.

Plastictrees- I agree regarding their handling of the Mierce Kickstarters, but that's all the more reason Not to respond to people the way Rob Lane did on page 1 here. Calling people with legitimate grievances trolls is just not going to work on a discussion forum.

People are allowed to criticize, and in fact in this case have every right to- just continue as you are, fulfill every obligation of Mierce and deliver fantastic miniatures with professional communication.

I know it's been quoted (and I even quoted part of it) but imo it would be wisest to even remove the post on the first page here, as it really does nothing but fan the flames of the situation. The title of this thread probably brought about this reaction, but that's been changed now, and the reaction you had will probably result in more heat than this thread would have generated otherwise.

Am I the only one who thought the post title was in Latin?

I love how Rob thinks everyone forgot that he basically knew they were in financial trouble and kept taking money for orders that they didn't have the money to fulfill

1.Maelstrom Games claims to be moving warehouse since Jun/Jul and sends out a lot of stock clearance sale codes
2.Since Jul 2012, people have claimed to have been issues with MG. To be honest, I already had issues with them taking MONTHS to fulfill orders back in Jan 2012.
3.They couldn't really get any answers from MG who apparently stopped listening to calls and emails
4.MG kept sending out clearance sale codes, slashing prices by 20% and then by 30 and then even more.
Meanwhile, there were still no responses from MG. Almost nothing was in stock on their webpage
5.The discounts kept getting more ridiculous. Those who were in MGs list pretty much got a new discount code every day
6.A suspicious called Eye of the Storm was set up. For those who don't know, Eye of the Storm is the physical store name for Maelstrom Games. And it looked pretty much identical to the MG website.
7.A lot of people saw it coming, but a lot of people didn't. At the end of Oct, MGs website went offline for 'maintenance', something most people couldn't ever remember it doing.
8.6 days later, a statement was posted up on the MGs website saying it had officially gone bankrupt, blamed some other company for its bankruptcy because the company had refused to let it keep stalling on it's 100K pound debt to them and then saying people who had ordered were gak Out Of Luck

Also "When did you know that you were going to face serious financial issues? MG closed in Oct 2012, but obviously money issues of this kind don't just appear suddenly. More interestingly, you only split off Mierce Miniatures in Mar 2012 while your annual accounts, with that shockingly huge debt were done in April 2012."

So basically in April 2012, you guys definitely knew you had about 400k in debt but financial statements are usually prepared in advance so it's likely you could have known about it in mar2012 or before that. Makes your timing really interesting

I still don't get why people say that MM is proving itself to be a good business. Who the heck cares? MG was badly run and what happened in the last few months was as near to criminal, in not criminal, as you can get.

We all know this so why support someone who behaves in this manner?

I still don't get why people support CMON. Yes business go bust, but how a person behaves when it does is very indicative of their personal character. Rob Lanes post in this thread shows bugger all has changed.

Mierce Miniatures wrote:
Just to clarify:

Mierce Miniatures existed in my head for a couple of years before Maelstrom went under, and in reality in March 2012.

Mierce was not created "out of the ashes" of Maelstrom. Anybody who thinks otherwise is ill-informed.

That's all. Thank you to those that have supported Mierce over the past couple of years, despite the trolls.

You certainly had the idea for the range before 2012, but why would you split it into a separate company? I'm fairly ignorant of business practises like that, so I'm assuming it's just a liability issue by keeping all of the segments in their own sand boxes?

The facts of the matter are that MM as a business was registered just before MG started to show it was having trouble, and then there was that EotS company as well. You have to admit that however legitimate it was on paper, it must have looked pretty dodgy to the casual observer.

------------
Edit:

Interestingly, the first Mierce Kickstarter says that the range was bought in May 2012 before the troubles started:

One thing that may concern some people is that Mierce Miniatures is somehow tainted by association with the former owners of our miniatures range, Maelstrom Games. We can assure you that this should not be so. Mierce Miniatures is a completely separate legal entity, existing from March 2012, and purchased the BaneLegions range entirely legally from Maelstrom Games in May of 2012 (rebranding 90% of it as Darklands) - long before Maelstrom Games' troubles began. We are unaffected by any issues regarding Maelstrom Games whatsoever and this Kickstarter project will be fulfilled - as long as we reach our target, of course!

May of course being when GW's "Rest Of World" Embargo hit, which will have had a devastating impact on Maelstrom, who (from what I can tell) got a lot of trade cut off. And March would have been about when they'd have found out about it happening.

So to say that in May when the range was sold, you were unaware of the impending problems Maelstrom were about to encounter is disingenuous as best. You must have know by that point that Maelstrom had overextended and had a significant income cut off (not that that's your fault as such - how were you to know GW was going to pull such a move).

As I said, to a casual observer, this all looks pretty dodgy, regardless of whether you are legally in the clear or not.

Herzlos wrote:
You certainly had the idea for the range before 2012, but why would you split it into a separate company? I'm fairly ignorant of business practises like that, so I'm assuming it's just a liability issue by keeping all of the segments in their own sand boxes?

To firewall assets against just this sort of occurrence.

You can then eject the catastrophic liabilities as the occur.

 notprop wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
You certainly had the idea for the range before 2012, but why would you split it into a separate company? I'm fairly ignorant of business practises like that, so I'm assuming it's just a liability issue by keeping all of the segments in their own sand boxes?

To firewall assets against just this sort of occurrence.

You can then eject the catastrophic liabilities as the occur.

Yep, and there is nothing wrong with that. Legally or morally. That is why limited liability companies exist. There is nothing wrong with a business failing, or starting a new business following that.

The problem here is what happened with Maelstrom with how customers were handled and how Mr Lane reacted and continues to react, calling people providing factual information trolls and blaming a supplier for pulling credit rather than accepting early enough that the company was no longer viable. Everyone working in credit has seen it time and again and understands that often directors and owners are blind to their companies failings. It's easy to do. It is difficult to see failings in your own child. It's how they then react that makes the difference.

[delete]

Sorry. Removed that incorrect information! Thank you for correcting me!

 scarletsquig wrote:

Defiance Games were also very successful with Kickstarter. There will never be any shortage of people throwing money at companies even when the entire internet is screaming that it's a bad idea.

I'm glad I did! I have spent £637.00 (just checked my account on their website) with Mierce directly so far - just from KS1 and KS2 - in addition to at least $500 I've spent ordering other Mierce models from frpgames.com and thewarstore.com and a few ebay purchases since 2012. So let's call it over US $1500 worth of Mierce models. They have been worth every penny. I believe I own more than half of the models they currently have available for sale.

With the collapse of Maelstrom I was saddened that I wouldn't be able to own very many Banelegions/Banebeasts stuff, so I grabbed a few from frpgames during their End of the World sale in 2012 (got the Talos for like $30!). Then Mierce was formed and announced the Kickstarter. With much much MUCH trepidation I backed KS1 for pre-existing models because I knew there was a good chance I'd at least get stock that currently existed. It ended and I got my order, and Mierce let backers continue to buy KS items via their website pledge manager, so I kept doing it, and lo and behold, they kept making and sending me the best miniatures ever made. Then as new designs, new sculpts have been released, I've been snapping them up, and I pledged even more for KS2. Any doubts I had about Mierce quickly eroded.

Every model I have received - and I have now received everything I have pledged for from them with the exception of Qaano Sronax Untain which just shipped, and the rulebook (in final layout I believe) - has been in the top tier of models ever designed and sculpted; far superior to any gak that Games Workshop or Mantic or Privateer Press churns out... even the resin is the best resin I've ever worked with (followed closely by Antenociti's Workshop pressure cast resin, but infinitely superior to Forge World's brittle gak and insta-melt Finecast). Every communication I've had with Mierce has been exceptionally handled and the few problems I've had (missing parts twice, broken part once) has been taken care of quickly and professionally, and I have even gotten free models for one of my troubles.

So, in this very case, I'm glad the entire Internet was completely wrong about Mierce, as they have been nothing but exceptional for the last year and I have a large collection of the finest models ever created.

I would rank Mierce's Kickstarter 1 as the second best Kickstarter I've participated in - right behind Mantic's Kings of War. Kings of War only gets the edge because it's become my favorite game to play, and my initial army pledges got me huge Orc and Goblin armies. When it comes to quality, the worst Mierce model obliterates the best Mantic model... in fact the centerpieces for my Kings of War armies are all Mierce models!

 judgedoug wrote:

So, in this very case, I'm glad the entire Internet was completely wrong about Mierce, as they have been nothing but exceptional for the last year and I have a large collection of the finest models ever created.

The internet's point of view was more that if he ran with your money once, he'd do it again in the same situation. In other words, yes, you've gotten everything you've ordered. And whilst Mierce is a healthy company, you will most likely continue to get everything you order. Rob Lane is not an out and out scammer, Mandelbaum style.

But the wisdom of the Elders of Internet, is that if Mierce runs into financial trouble again, and you have orders placed with them then, you probably won't get recompense, and will instead get Rob Lane taking your money and hiving it off into yet another side company. The problem si that you won't know that's going to happen, until it does. It may never happen again, but as a consumer, the saying is, 'Once bitten, twice shy'.

 Ketara wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

So, in this very case, I'm glad the entire Internet was completely wrong about Mierce, as they have been nothing but exceptional for the last year and I have a large collection of the finest models ever created.

The internet's point of view was more that if he ran with your money once, he'd do it again in the same situation. In other words, yes, you've gotten everything you've ordered. And whilst Mierce is a healthy company, you will most likely continue to get everything you order. Rob Lane is not an out and out scammer, Mandelbaum style.

But the wisdom of the Elders of Internet, is that if Mierce runs into financial trouble again, and you have orders placed with them then, you probably won't get recompense, and will instead get Rob Lane taking your money and hiving it off into yet another side company. The problem si that you won't know that's going to happen, until it does. It may never happen again, but as a consumer, the saying is, 'Once bitten, twice shy'.

Exactly that.

Why deal with someone who has been proven, at best, to be a bad businessman or, at worst, a deceitful crook.

How people don't get that is beyond me.

Well, it's the same argument with CMON... but I've mellowed on it.

I still have yet to back a CMON kickstarter, but I can understand the point of view from people who (fairly, in a sense) say that they have moved on and are now reliable. Might still be a bit distasteful... but they seem to have their act together (mostly).

To me, CMON's communication and attitude still kind of sux in many respects, though. Mierce, on the other hand, has been pretty exemplary both in having their act together (casting and delivering great models) and in their communication... with the Very notable exception of Rob Lane's post on the first page of this thread!

That said, the thread title was originally "lynching" which I think provoked things... doesn't justify the reaction, but might indicate why it came now whereas up until this point Mierce's communications have been quite professional, even when these topics were brought up in their threads (again, rightfully brought up).

They've impressed me enough that I'd consider backing one of their Kickstarters... but the price of the last was what kept me from doing so. Luckily, someone added a few of the excellently priced KS1 models for me to their later order, so I was able to get things that way .

So all that to say, the customers very certainly have the right to express their displeasure about this, and Mierce would do well to continue how they were before, just dealing with it on a professional / business level and not accusing people of trolling when they are expressing legitimate grievances... even if those grievances can't really feasibly be recompensed at this point.

Mierce Miniatures wrote:
Rob Lane here. It's time to break the silence and give you a few facts.


First of all, if anybody *is* planning "something" at Salute, I suggest that person thinks about what they're doing carefully, and writes their words here carefully. As for lynching, you all know where we are - our address is carefully listed on our website and on our documents - feel free to come and do so whenever you like, you don't need a Salute to do it.

Secondly, I am the the director of Mierce Miniatures, just like I was the director of Maelstrom Games, which died because two other companies decided to make it die and not because I wanted to rip customers off. (By the way, notrop - Maelstrom didn't owe "over a million"; the Official Receiver got their sums wrong, and it is half that originally shown. I have the correct creditor's list if you or anybody else wants it, and of course so does the OR).

Thirdly, Mierce's first annual report shows a loss for one reason only: the bad debt incurred by giving money to Maelstrom Games (I'm not sure if the website you're mentioning shows this) to and Maunsfeld Gaming to pay staff in their death throes, which is roughly £40,000 (Admin expenses, last page), debt which can never be repaid. Yes, Mierce is a Maelstrom creditor - oh, the shock. I can provide our annual accounts (written by our chartered accountants) on request, if you do not believe me. Additionally, it should also be mentioned that many small businesses, in their first year of trading, make a loss. In other words, it's not unusual for that to occur, as I'm sure you all well know, having business knowledge. As for not having many "assets" (intangible and tangible), it must be remembered that these accounts cover 2012-2013, up to April, and in April 2013 we only had a couple of miniatures from the first Kickstarter in our possession (although we did show how much we owed the sculptors for them, "trade debtors", which creates an imbalance). Our assets are, of course, much greater now.

Fourthly, if any single one of you thinks that I personally have made money out of the death of Maelstrom, you'd be wrong and very ill-informed. I am personally £50,000 in debt, still, because of what happened - through credit cards and a personal loan - money that I pumped into Maelstrom in 2012 to try and stop the company going under. Again, I can provide evidence of this if you really want. Thankfully, despite this, I've managed to keep paying my mortgage, which no doubt annoys those of you that wanted me to lose my house (and thus put kids on the street). Unfortunately, two companies decided to put Maelstrom Games under and there was nothing I could do about that and nobody wanted to help - not banks, nobody. I sympathise with anybody that has lost money from what happened to Maelstrom Games, but don't think for one second that a) I wanted Maelstrom Games to die; why on earth would I? and b) I've absconded with any money; and c) that I've used money from Maelstrom to create a miniature manufacturer - because none of the above is the case, and the latter two is provable.

Fifthly, Mierce Miniatures purchased the original BaneLegions miniatures from Maelstrom Games legally and fairly, paying £10,000 more than the amount decided by an independent valuer to be a fair value for the assets at the time, the transaction for which has been inspected by the Official Receiver (a government body) and found to be fine. Apart from that, the only involvement Mierce had with Maelstrom Games was to provide it with miniatures to sell and, eventually, to fulfil Maelstrom Games orders for Mierce Miniatures products (that could not be fulfilled by Maelstrom). Effectively, Mierce gave miniatures to Maelstrom to fulfil those orders, over 200 orders if I recall correctly, and many thousands in value.

Sixthly, the Official Receiver - who oversees the death of companies that Insolvency Practitioners can't make money out of - has concluded their investigation and I have not been charged with any crime, nor have I had to do anything for the OR except attend one interview in April last year and explain what happened. This explanation can be found in official documents. I'm not being charged, I'm not being struck off as a director.


Finally, I don't expect any of the above will make any difference to some of you, and I've no doubt I'm just feeding the troll, or maybe just some internet warriors who simply take the word of someone (because it's dramatic or because everybody loves to have someone to hate) without trying to find out about what really happened, let alone to understand why it happened. But at some point - having read and listened to some very personal attacks over the past couple of years, some of which is frankly ridiculous, and from people who should know better - I have to say "enough is enough", and I've reached that point. I've stayed silent so that trolls aren't fed, but despite my own reservations about doing so, this is my response, for what it's worth.

None of you can hope to understand what myself, my family, and my staff and their families, have gone through in the past couple of years; and it's all because another company got impatient (we were paying their debt regularly, and at a far greater rate than any court would enforce; additionally, I offered that company as many BaneLegions as they could sell to further pay for that debt, for free, and they refused them) and another company got greedy (they refused to accept any kind of payment plan). If you think those other two companies are innocent, especially if you're "friends" of those companies, you're very wrong and totally ill-informed. If they hadn't done what they had done, Maelstrom would still be here (and in a different place, too. I still have the solicitor's documents that prove Maelstrom was moving into a warehouse, if anybody would like to see them).

Direct your ire at those two companies over Mierce, because Mierce had absolutely nothing to do with Maelstrom Games' demise, and this can be proven. Mierce would not exist if it were otherwise, the Official Receiver would ensure of that.

I ask that you don't abuse my staff at Salute; they simply work for me, and they work for me still because they know the truth about what happened.

If you wish to talk further in a calm and sensible manner, e-mail me. Otherwise, troll away.

Quoting for posterity, in case Rob decides to try some damage control!

I always am amazed how easily nerds are duped into forgiving guys like him, just because they managed to get some shinies to soothe the doubts. They will even rabidly defend him, because he provides them with toys! Seriously now, guys...

Such a wonderfully well-argued post. Please, Set, tell us: what's your specific knowledge in the field of insolvency? You sure seem to be awful sure of your experience and knowledge in the field...

 Bolognesus wrote:
Such a wonderfully well-argued post. Please, Set, tell us: what's your specific knowledge in the field of insolvency? You sure seem to be awful sure of your experience and knowledge in the field...

You don't need to be an expert in ducks, to say that if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, to claim that any duck that has acted like Rob Lane in the past is a duck you should have any business transactions with. Even, or especially, when these businesses have anything to do with toy soldiers.

So, your gut knows better than the Official Receiver? Right. Dream on, mate.

Good grief....

Have you ever run a (relatively) small company? Have you ever seen a couple of those go bankrupt? Feth, a retailer going bankrupt is inherently between a rock and a hard place; you *do* have to stop trading if you're sure you cannot climb out of the any more - but you're often just as liable for stopping early: existing creditors can actually hold directors liable for throwing in the towel early. You're *obliged* to try. Did MG keep going too long? I'd say so. Actually knowing when to stop trying, though, is a whole different matter. Not so much when you're looking back at it - but in the weeks/months it's going downhill, folks tend to work 10-12H days trying to fix stuff - it can be easy to lose perspective. Is that ideal? No. But this kind of thing is not unheard of in retailers going bankrupt - as a matter of fact, you see either desparate sales/stunts or complete silence for the last month or two/three more often than not.
Did mr. Lane handle this perfecly? Feth no. Grief, I'd say he made some significant mistakes - but usually the ones you see in directors honestly invested with keeping things afloat, rather than those trying to defraud creditors.

Actually, I lost (part of) an order with MG as well. I was also somewhat skeptical as to the Mierce split - at least, whether that actually happened at arms' length.

Professional response: well, let's see what the ensuing investigation yields.
If he had done anything you could actually call fraudulent - which some folks are rather fond of stating - good grief, that would have come out in the investigation. If that Mierce transfer had not happened properly, at arms' length, he'd have been on the hook for a pretty penny.
Guess what? Seems the OR, you know, an actual investigating authority, with actual expertise, as well as access to a much fuller set of facts, is convinced it was just a company going broke.

Tell you what? The skills required to actually, fraudulently, get something good out of such a company going broke require some rather specialized skills - and as much as I'm reasonably certain that he's perfectly fine to run a small company, the way MG got away from him makes me pretty sure that mr Lane does not fit that picture (Sorry MM ).

Also, if he actually paid substantially more than the independent valuation, and the OR approved of that - you do realize that's actually good for creditors, right? At auction, you'd be happy to get 80% or so of valuation, and fees would have to come out of that as well (not to mention the hours an administrator would have to put in)...
Also, if he wanted to get away with the barest minimum - he'd have gotten two valuations (preferably paid from remaining MG funds) and paid the higher of those - not a penny more. Apparently, he went 10K quid over (I have not verified this, but he's offered to supply documentation. You might want to take him up on this. Feth, I might want to take him up on the offer to supply certain documents, if only out of morbid curiosity). Every penny of that actually goes into MG funds. Appears he's trying to avoid even the appearance of impropriety there - again, not the hallmark of a shady deal.

Actually making sure at least salaries were paid is another thing I don't think we ever see the shadier type doing - at least, not around here.

Are there things you can accuse Rob Lane of? Oh yes. TBH, I've always been a bit taken aback with his demeanor (he can come across a bit blunt, even for my arguably crude sensibilities!) and I'm pretty sure MG could have been handled a LOT better. We do not require directors to be perfect as a matter of law, but the kind of razor's edge pennypinching required to run a large scale internet discounter like MG, and keep it afloat when things take a turn for the worse, aren't something you tend to learn by just taking a stab at it. Frankly, that kind of business needs, nowadays, to be run by accountants - and mr Lane seems to be far from that.
OTOH, I've found he really, honestly does do his utter best to keep his customers satisfied. Also, Mierce appears to be setting prices conservatively and erring on the side of caution, which I'm guessing is in no small part meant to avoid another debacle. And once you get past the gruff demeanor, I'm pretty convinced he's honest. And I'm the kind of cynic that's naturally inclined to run extensive fraud checks on clergy and nice old ladies, for what it's worth

Mierce is a company which works on relatively larger margins by aiming for a high-end product (and let's be honest, both quality and price are decidedly that!) and that is the sort of company which requires less in the way of advanced degrees and more in the way of enthusiasm and dedication. I feel reasonably certain he's in the right place there - and I guess he's not ever going to go near the discounting industry ever again (he's made a few comments to that effect, I believe).

So yes. Companies go broke. He might even have handled it better. but a thorough investigation determined it was handled acceptably, if not ideally, and at this point you're really just left with the risk inherent in dealing with a small retailer. Or any kind of retailer, even.

And if it might make your particularly vindictive gut feel better, he *has* offered to show proof he's out a substantial amount of money on this as well (which, again, would jive with what tends to happen in this kind of thing) so you might want to take him up on that. And if someone not losing his fething house spoils your day as it seems to do for some, well, good grief. Get counseling.

Again though, if you're so sure there's something amiss, please take MM up on that docs offer and point it out, or point out what seems to be missing. I'd love to hear some actual constructive input from you. Feth, third post might be the charm

 Bolognesus wrote:
Such a wonderfully well-argued post. Please, Set, tell us: what's your specific knowledge in the field of insolvency? You sure seem to be awful sure of your experience and knowledge in the field...

Without endorsing Set's particular wording, the extant facts do rather seem to support a negative light on the whole affair. So let's be quite clear on this matter. I do not practice in the UK, and thus my opinion on the possible civil or criminal liabilities inherent in this situation are irrelevant. Nor is it relevant that the prosecuting authorities have not chosen to pursue action against Mr. Lane; even in a case when a pattern of wrongdoing is clear the authorities may chose not to prosecute. There can be any number of reasons for this failure to prosecute, which are, again, not relevant to this discussion. Nor is the rather unfortunate tone of the Mierce/Maelstrom posts.

There is, however, a way we can speak of this that is both universal and relevant: the moral question.

The extent facts are, to the best of my knowledge, as follows;
July 2012: by the end (the 23th) of this month posters on Dakka are starting to notice irregularities in orders being fulfilled by Maelstrom Games (MG).
July 26, 2012: MG sends out an email offering 20% off GW products. Reports from Dakka posters (see thread) indicate that MG is having trouble stocking GW. Reports come in of difficulty getting refunds and products listed as "in-stock" not being shipped.
Rumors swirl and complaints continue to accrue over the course of the fall. It is reported that MG continues to offer new sales, often with the claim of "LAST-GASP WAREHOUSE MOVE SALE!".
Novermber 9, 2012: MG announces that they "ceased trading and will enter liquidation at some point". MG states that this is the result of inability to pay debts to creditors, and further states that;
"This debt was purchased from Simple Miniature Games by Wayland Games Ltd on the 1st of October, 2012 and payment of this debt was demanded in full by Wayland Games after seven days had elapsed. Unfortunately, Maelstrom Games Ltd. could not pay Wayland Games Ltd. this debt in full within those seven days. "

Facts that are alleged;
Wayland Games claims that they made an offer to buy outright Maelstrom Games in "early May", and were ignored. Wayland further states;

Some time ago we became aware of discussions at various events where there was a constant chatter about
the financial situation that Maelstrom Games found itself in and the significant debts it suffered from. We
ignored them to begin with but it seemed that in the events scene in the UK it was being discussed openly. We
noticed that tickets were being sold a year in advance for some events. We then see hundreds of thousands of
pounds being pushed into a miniatures line whilst Maelstrom Games still owed significant monies to suppliers.
Suppliers we (and countless other retailers) share and rely upon for the timely distribution of product to fulfil
our customer orders.

Now, the propriety of Wayland games' actions, the need to press debts in such and such a fashion, that is all a subject for discussion elsewhere. The question is, did MG do the moral thing, or did they act dishonestly?

-It is a matter of the record above that after 1st of October, 2012 MG continued to actively solicit orders with emails promising sales.
-At the same time, by MG's own public statements, on or about 1st October, 2012, the debt owed by MG to Simple Miniature Games was purchased by Wayland; what, if any, ability MG has to actually fill orders or restock after this point is unclear.

All of this boils down to a simple point: at some time in 2012 MG realized they were going to go out of business and some people who paid for goods were not going to get those goods. Put aside everything else and that's the rub. At some point someone in the organization knew or should have known that they were taking orders that they would not or could not fill.

Let us be clear: I am not saying that Mierce is a bad company, nor am I saying they put out a bad product. It is entirely possible that, because of the enhanced scrutiny, Mierce is a safer company then most: even a whiff of scandal will be disastrous for Mierce, after all.

That said, it's also important in this discussion to bare in mind that this is not a simple matter. There are matters of fact that are uncontested (enumerated in part above) about which people of good faith can disagree about. It's also worth pointing out that in Mr. Lane's post above, the primary (only?) reference he makes to the customers that placed orders that were never filled was "I sympathise[sic] with anybody that has lost money from what happened to Maelstrom Games...". The overall tone seems sometimes as if the stars conspired against MG, or a mighty wind tore this "lost money" from people's hands.

Without pointing fingers or picking fights, the lack of empathy and flat out ignorance on display in some of the posts in this thread, not to mention the willingness to ascribe sinister motives to likely benign actions is slightly embarrassing to me as a Dakka member.

How are people, after the events of the last few years, not aware of how easily a company can swing from financial solidity to circling the drain if circumstances conspire against them? Take it from a former small business owner that it only takes the one bad call to cause yourself immense issues, and we're not talking decisions made in ignorance, we're talking judgments that with the best info, are still essentially educated guesswork.

Businesses, unfortunately, go bankrupt everyday, the owners of those businesses will do everything to prevent their families, and the families of the employees they likely consider friends and work closely with, being consigned to the dole queue.

But, I guess I have a degree of empathy, having presided over similar, if lower key, events myself, I understand where Rob is coming from, and far from stealing people's money, you keep trading while there's a chance you can turn things around, right up until the point it becomes impossible.

But then, I got what I ordered from MG, so I guess I'm hugely lucky? Or did the majority also get their order, and only now, some two years down the line we're left with a few people who still harbour a grudge over something which, while regrettable, is likely going to happen at least once in one's lifetime, unless one restricts oneself to only buying goods from physical shops and only items they have in stock.

I'm not trying to paint Rob as a saint, I'm sure if my livelihood and family's security were on the line, and I had to make some hard decisions, perhaps I'd favour myself ahead of my customers.

All ways up, the sheer eagerness some people seem to have to paint one man as an arch villain because his business folded (and trust me, if the OoOR is ok with it, considering the circumstances, the legitimacy of the events is beyond plausible question) is far more distasteful than anything that Rob/MG/MM stands accused of.

Take an exalt, Buzzsaw. Excellent contribution.

An RO report concerns not just criminal liability; it should also clarify whether there might be a civil action open against a director. I'll admit my training isn't in UK law either but a quick looksie around seems to confirm that isn't all that different out there. Generally, if there might be an action open to creditors against a director, such an investigation should pursue that in so far as it might yield something (and with the amounts involved, some substantial investigation should occur).

You're right authorities can decline to prosecute for fraud - but that's just a different, much narrower, matter.

As long as MG could honestly believe they might be able to get items in from GW if paid up-front (and I am most assuredly insufficiently familiar with GW terms for retailers at that point, but with a sane supplier, this would have been an option; with GW, well, let's say assuming sanity on their part is probably at least not a legal wrong ^^) and so an attempt to get out of the drain by paying for fulfilment of older orders with money from newer orders certainly need not be fraudulent.
Heck, it happens all the time with companies in financial difficulty.
Also, WG pressed the debt aggressively. Was this wrong? No, they were within their rights (propriety is something I prefer to leave out of it; they were within their rights and annihilated a competitor. Even if it were a bit predatory, I wouldn't argue that to be unequitable per se. ---**/in which Bolognesus might not be such good friends with Mierce anymore ^^ **) to do so.
However, this did change the financial picture in which, I believe, RL believed he might yet get MG in the black again, with a lot of effort.
Generally, directors hanging on to a last ditch attempt for too long are a pretty damn common sight.
Again, though: while that might be a sign of less-than-optimal, if not borderline incompetent, dealings by the director(s) at issue - this is a long, long way from fraud, however.

Again, retailers in danger of going down the tub end up in that situation _every_time_ (okay, almost). A lot of them do pull through. And usually, they're neck deep in work at least attempting to pull through. And you know what? They often do - not that we know of, of course: "hey guys, we just narrowly escaped bankruptcy. Please buy from us!" doesn't go over well, so that's kept quiet, but it's pretty common. It's a good thing if they try, at least - often it at least results in a reduction of debts owed.
Here, it didn't. In part, probably, because noone at MG had enough of a clue to see the forest of a bankrupt company through all the trees of issues that, individually, they might be able to resolve.
Is that a good thing? certainly not - but it's often the reason for small companies that grow too fast, without accounting for added complexity due to the larger scale of business, to fail. Over their heads, simply put.
Your argument that he/they should have known better - okay. I tend, somewhat, to disagree - I suspect they had a lot of unfavourable factors gang up on them in quick succession and succumbed to a lack of expertise, and perhaps, ability to take a fair, distanced look at their own business. I can see how you might be somewhat harsher in that regard though. However, that still speaks to a lack of competence, not the presence of malice.

As to people in good faith disagreeing on certain matters - sure. Your post would be a good example (and I certainly disagree on certain matters ).
My issue is with a year-and-a-half of a bunch of idjits with no business experience, no clue about running thin-margin retail, and certainly not the foggiest of clues on what usually happens when a company goes insolvent, asserting fraud and Loki knows what other misdeeds in issues where that is patently ridiculous and untrue, as well as being completely at odds with basic law of property/company law principles prevalent throughout the entire western world for the whole of living memory.
(arms length transfer of assets between companies for example - given how some folks seem to respond to what would be a neutral or even positive deal for the MG balance sheet, actually increasing liquidity and therefore providing more of a pot for creditors, I'm highly tempted to start handing out the North Korean Immigration Office brochures that I'm sure would have Alphie&co ban my arse for the next twenty zillion years in a heartbeat).

Companies go bust - and in retail, generally, it's the owners/directors that take the biggest hit. Not saying that mitigates the frustration, disappointment and loss for consumers involved - but asserting bad faith requires good evidence. We seemed to have some. IMO, it turned out to be largely hypothesis and hyperbole (wait, on DakkaDakka?!?). Take your time to look up my posts in the MG going bust thread; I wasn't exactly singing their praises. I was also chasing Mierce on promises they made, which none of us believed, at that time, they'd make good on (turned out they did). What I was not doing, is wildly slinging all kinds of accusations without some decent grounds for doing so (or wildly overstated, given then current facts/knowledge).
And that's probably my issue here. Noone, absolutely noone, and I think that would include MM themselves, will deny it could have been handled better. Whether that is only with the benefit of hindsight, or more professional skills than they had at that point, is a point we can debate - but accusations of actual malice, the whole "RL had been draining MG to fund MM for ages, on purpose" shtick that keeps sticking it's ugly head back up, are just inappropriate.

And the kind of idiocy of publicly exhorting forum members to go over to what should be a (more or less) family friendly gathering and commit some kind of gut-feeling based vigilante -I-wouldn't-dare-call-this-justice-,really-, tend to hack me off to no end. That's the kind of mentality you're dealing with, here. " Laws? Feth those, I'll go get my toys, with a baseball bat if needed." Aside from the whole pathetic internet tough guy thing, that needs to end.

I think Az put it a bit more succinctly (this might be the alcohol here - sorry, friday ): it might not qualify for sainthood but until someone shows some malice, shall we just assume he got in over his head? (I'm not buying the "just bad luck" explanation; I'm convinced running that business got away from them by its very nature).

And on a small side note:
Having seen what BaneLegions models were put out before the Mierce transfer, I find WG's assertion of "hundreds of thousands of pounds pushed into a miniatures line" ridiculous; that's probably several times cost, and they certainly did sell a bunch of them so I wouldn't be surprised if, after sale to Mierce, it was either neutral or in the black; in any case, it wouldn't have cost MG a significant sum. Less relevant, perhaps: but the one thing in which they did cross the line here, IMO, is that kind of accusations. WG really did their best to paint a picture of RL complete with horns and a tail. That's not a very professional thing to do, at least.
I 'get' they had potential PR issues here, but there are better ways of solving those than starkly lying and misrepresenting a situation as sensitive as this.

Let's not forget that, while it has been implied it wasn't the sole cause of the death spiral, the GW ROW embargo reputedly cut MG turnover in half, essentially overnight.

Now, it wouldn't just take someone with very well honed business ability to manage ones way out of that, it would take a healthy dose of luck at that point, and that was something totally unpredictable and outside of MG's control.

Again, not lobbying the Pope on Rob's behalf, I'm sure mistakes were made, and things would be done differently if time was to reset, but I just don't see the presence of malice in any of this.