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http://www.icv2.com/articles/markets/28125.html

I'm personally a little surprised by the success of the Star Wars and Star Trek games. But, that may just be my own personal tastes.

I knew Star Wars was popular, but I'm glad Star Trek is doing well also. Maybe Star Trek can have it's own subforum on Dakka soon?

Interesting as ever, but it is important to note that this information is based off interview questions, not hard data, so it isn't gospel.

Useful indicator though.

So according to this list, WHFB finally slipped off the list, huh? I was hoping KoW might have been the one to replace it, but ST:AW is a fun game too.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
So according to this list, WHFB finally slipped off the list, huh? I was hoping KoW might have been the one to replace it, but ST:AW is a fun game too.

Mantic might be able to do this next year, if they start making good quality plastics like the undead again. The last time they tried to release a KoW army, half of it was rubbish (Men at Arms, Nuns, cathorses).

I can see Star Wars being number 2.

There was some insane demand there for a while, and not to mention it's far easier to get into than other games where you have to build and paint your models.

With X Wing, you can be ready in the time it takes to read the rulebook.

Plus, it's friggin Star Wars. There will people who have never heard of something like 40k that might pick this up in a heartbeat.

 azreal13 wrote:
Interesting as ever, but it is important to note that this information is based off interview questions, not hard data, so it isn't gospel.

Useful indicator though.

Actually, it's collected from sales data from stores, manufacturers, and distributors. The "interview" includes them sending in hard data from their computers. You can e-mail ICv2 yourself and ask them if you want.

It's ALSO important to remember, that this is pulled from NA and isn't representative of the world as a whole.

Not all that surprised by this.
Im not a fan of war machine but the x wing that i have played speaks for itself. fun, fairly well balanced and pretty cheap to get into and play.

It's also important to remember that this data doesn't include the #1 seller of GW products.

 cincydooley wrote:
It's also important to remember that this data doesn't include the #1 seller of GW products.

This is true.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
So according to this list, WHFB finally slipped off the list, huh? I was hoping KoW might have been the one to replace it, but ST:AW is a fun game too.

Mantic might be able to do this next year, if they start making good quality plastics like the undead again. The last time they tried to release a KoW army, half of it was rubbish (Men at Arms, Nuns, cathorses).

I don't think KoW will ever touch this list. I really doubt that KoW is pulling in new players that never touched a fantasy game before, I'm sure they are pulling in a bunch of former WHFB players. WHFB is still a more likely entry point in NA and it's never been a blockbuster seller here.

 cincydooley wrote:
It's also important to remember that this data doesn't include the #1 seller of GW products.

You mean Games Workshop stores? That would hardly make the data more accurate, as they don't sell anything but their own stuff.

What's a Warmachine? It was high up there.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It's also important to remember that this data doesn't include the #1 seller of GW products.

You mean Games Workshop stores? That would hardly make the data more accurate, as they don't sell anything but their own stuff.

Exactly, meaning that if GW stores were included, GW's games would probably jump up the list a bit.

Would have been nice to see the numbers. To see if Warmahordes actually beats 40k. Because they really are just one game at this point.

 Goliath wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It's also important to remember that this data doesn't include the #1 seller of GW products.

You mean Games Workshop stores? That would hardly make the data more accurate, as they don't sell anything but their own stuff.

Exactly, meaning that if GW stores were included, GW's games would probably jump up the list a bit.

Which would only reinforce 40k as the top selling wargame. Imo its reasonable to assume that the split of 40k vs Fantasy sales is pretty similar for both GW stores and Indys, so including GW stores isn't going to make Fantasy sales look that much better.

It also seems weird that they classify Warmachine and Hordes as different systems for this, they are basically the same system and I suspect that they would jump above X-Wing if they were combined.

Another interesting tidbit is that hobby games were up 20% in 2013 which contrasts with GW's reported shrinkage....

As pointed out this is a sampling of game stores wishing to share their information and is for North America only. Nothing hard. Store owners have stated on this board the numbers are very broad, and unreliable.

Not sure how long Star Trek will remain on that list. It was a big flash when it came out, but didn't last more than a month or so locally. People complained the figures weren't as good as SW and the rules not as polished. Still, surprised with the legs Star Wars has.

Mantic will never be on that list because they aren't carried by most stores. No one bothers to carry them when Manitc is undecutting them with Kickstarters and sales through their online store.

And while people are tooting the 20% growth, again, ICv2 doesn't mention Non-Collectible Miniature games contributing to that growth. Was pointed out in another thread, Privateer Press mentioned at TempleCon their numbers for last year being around $15-16M. An ex-PP employee told me their were pulling in $12-13M back in 2010. They are suppose to be taking off and that is only about 5% growth. A far cry from the 15-25% everyone like to throw around when ICv2 is brought up. And that number puts them at less than what WHFB pulls in total for GW. Harry pointed out on Warseer it was pulling high teens percentage wise for GW at the start of 8th and I had heard it was still pulling low teens last summer. That still puts it pulling in well above PP.

 silent25 wrote:
As pointed out this is a sampling of game stores wishing to share their information and is for North America only. Nothing hard. Store owners have stated on this board the numbers are very broad, and unreliable.

Not sure how long Star Trek will remain on that list. It was a big flash when it came out, but didn't last more than a month or so locally. People complained the figures weren't as good as SW and the rules not as polished. Still, surprised with the legs Star Wars has.

Mantic will never be on that list because they aren't carried by most stores. No one bothers to carry them when Manitc is undecutting them with Kickstarters and sales through their online store.

And while people are tooting the 20% growth, again, ICv2 doesn't mention Non-Collectible Miniature games contributing to that growth. Was pointed out in another thread, Privateer Press mentioned at TempleCon their numbers for last year being around $15-16M. An ex-PP employee told me their were pulling in $12-13M back in 2010. They are suppose to be taking off and that is only about 5% growth. A far cry from the 15-25% everyone like to throw around when ICv2 is brought up. And that number puts them at less than what WHFB pulls in total for GW. Harry pointed out on Warseer it was pulling high teens percentage wise for GW at the start of 8th and I had heard it was still pulling low teens last summer. That still puts it pulling in well above PP.

Other companies, such as Corvus Belli, experienced a much more visible growth.

 silent25 wrote:
As pointed out this is a sampling of game stores wishing to share their information and is for North America only. Nothing hard. Store owners have stated on this board the numbers are very broad, and unreliable.

Not sure how long Star Trek will remain on that list. It was a big flash when it came out, but didn't last more than a month or so locally. People complained the figures weren't as good as SW and the rules not as polished. Still, surprised with the legs Star Wars has.

Mantic will never be on that list because they aren't carried by most stores. No one bothers to carry them when Manitc is undecutting them with Kickstarters and sales through their online store.

And while people are tooting the 20% growth, again, ICv2 doesn't mention Non-Collectible Miniature games contributing to that growth. Was pointed out in another thread, Privateer Press mentioned at TempleCon their numbers for last year being around $15-16M. An ex-PP employee told me their were pulling in $12-13M back in 2010. They are suppose to be taking off and that is only about 5% growth. A far cry from the 15-25% everyone like to throw around when ICv2 is brought up. And that number puts them at less than what WHFB pulls in total for GW. Harry pointed out on Warseer it was pulling high teens percentage wise for GW at the start of 8th and I had heard it was still pulling low teens last summer. That still puts it pulling in well above PP.

To be fair, if their income actually went from $12M to $16M over 3 years, that's something like 11% growth. Your number is correct if they went from $13M to $15M. So their growth would be between 5% and 11%, which is still good, especially during a recession when the industry leader seems to be struggling.

 Goliath wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It's also important to remember that this data doesn't include the #1 seller of GW products.

You mean Games Workshop stores? That would hardly make the data more accurate, as they don't sell anything but their own stuff.

Exactly, meaning that if GW stores were included, GW's games would probably jump up the list a bit.

By 'games' (plural) I assume you mean the other game, WFB, unless 40k were to go to position zero?

Thought a lot of the miniatures for the Star Trek game were half-arsed, disappointed to see not a more 'deserving' game like Infinity or Malifaux up there - although top sales is by no means an indicator of quality, as we all know.

Some drek just sells better than others due to the name attached to it.

Powerguy wrote:

Which would only reinforce 40k as the top selling wargame. Imo its reasonable to assume that the split of 40k vs Fantasy sales is pretty similar for both GW stores and Indys, so including GW stores isn't going to make Fantasy sales look that much better.

It may do. If 99% of sales of WHFB (I know they are not. I'm just illustrating a point) are through GW then that would put it way up the list. All the WHFB vs 40k sales means is that WHFB is less popular than 40k. It could be that WHFB would be second on the list with GW numbers in. I'm not saying it is, just that these numbers are pretty meaningless for WHFB without what is probably the bulk of sales included.

 cincydooley wrote:
It's also important to remember that this data doesn't include the #1 seller of GW products.

Is GW the biggest seller of GW products in North America, despite having such a small store presence?

I know they make things as hard for indies over there as possible, but I would be surprised if the GW retail chain sells more GW stuff than the entire Indy network.

I'd also take indies sales as a pretty good indicator of how things are going; 40K/Fantasy used to top all of the charts, and now Fantasy has dropped right off. Now from that do we assume that all the Fantasy customers have moved over to games-workshop.com, or do we assume that they've moved on for some reason?

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

To be fair, if their income actually went from $12M to $16M over 3 years, that's something like 11% growth. Your number is correct if they went from $13M to $15M. So their growth would be between 5% and 11%, which is still good, especially during a recession when the industry leader seems to be struggling.

Your assuming largest range of growth for the 11%. Probably closer to 7% and that is still poor next to the 15 - 25% being stated by ICv2. Even a few years ago when GW was growing at 5% people were dismissing the growth and saying they aren't able to keep up with the rest of the industry. They aren't able to grow much in a pro-gaming boom right now either. Most people aren't interested in miniature games. They prefer CCGs and boardgames as ICv2 points out when talking about where the growth is coming from.

*edit* And CB is a tiny company just breaking $1 in the last couple years. It doesn't take much to send their numbers up fast.

Powerguy wrote:

It also seems weird that they classify Warmachine and Hordes as different systems for this, they are basically the same system and I suspect that they would jump above X-Wing if they were combined.

Warmachines and Hordes are separate product lines. Rules have nothing to do with how sales are classified.

Very interesting, I've certainly seen an upturn of X-Wing in my FLGS, and Warmachine seems to be equaling-to-outpacing 40k (although 40k players could have migrated to other FLGS's or the local GW store). I haven't seen much Fantasy, nor have I seen any Star Trek. I wish we could get GW direct sales into this mix to see where Fantasy would sit, but obviously that isn't happening. And I'm curious how infinity is doing in sales these days.

Herzlos wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It's also important to remember that this data doesn't include the #1 seller of GW products.

Is GW the biggest seller of GW products in North America, despite having such a small store presence?

I know they make things as hard for indies over there as possible, but I would be surprised if the GW retail chain sells more GW stuff than the entire Indy network.

I'd also take indies sales as a pretty good indicator of how things are going; 40K/Fantasy used to top all of the charts, and now Fantasy has dropped right off. Now from that do we assume that all the Fantasy customers have moved over to games-workshop.com, or do we assume that they've moved on for some reason?

I'm not convinced that they are. There are huge swathes of the country that haven't seen a GW store, ever. Heck, Oklahoma just got our first about a year ago and other than that, you're looking at a 3-4 hour drive to the nearest one. Sure, there's ordering online direct from GW but why do that when Miniature Market and other FLGSs with an online presence offer discounts?

The point is that Fantasy is probably actually top 5 still, since it's the only non #1 system that's has a big chunk (how big you an argue, but it's doubtlessly a large chunk) of it's sales hidden behind the GW curtain.

decker_cky wrote:
The point is that Fantasy is probably actually top 5 still, since it's the only non #1 system that's has a big chunk (how big you an argue, but it's doubtlessly a large chunk) of it's sales hidden behind the GW curtain.

True, but it's not really hidden if you have the other data to go off of since GW is publicly traded. We know how much, in pound notes, GW's sales amounted to...